how to make giant orchestral "wush" instead of reverse cymbal

[analographi]

Hi,

In Movies you can always hear those giant orchestral "wush"es which build up tension. Similar to a reverse crash or cymbal.. but with far more impact and sound.

Anybody knows how to build those ?

Or maybe you know any resources, books on using orchestral sample libraries?

I'm aware of filtered whitenoises and reversed long reverbs, I'm looking for something more elaborate.

Thanks

[statikcat]

Most good orchestral libraries (Halion Orchestral, EWQL Symphonic Gold, etc) have a patch like this. It is essentially a mult layered orchestral crash/cymb. It sounds like you are refering to a roll that builds up as opposed to a one-hit crash.. so it would requite many notes to make the sound. Start with low vel and end with high.

[analographi]

you mean I roll several cymbals? sounds good... will be some work, I'll try..
But there is also low end.. maybe timpanys rolling...?

How about those tonal wushes where you can kind of hear the whole orchestra in it... are these just more and more musicians tuning in in a chord, or is it all just volume? I mean if I just have several instruments play a chord together and fade it in, it does sound ok, but not really dynamic..

[woomanmoomin]

That's because orchestras don't fade in. Let's say it's a string orchestra only. They may start out softly but then the players will really start getting it, bows flying like crazy, and in MIDI terms they're gradually building up the velocity until what you end up with in real life is not just a louder version of the quiet sound you heard when they started playing the chord or whatever. In your position, I would be looking at building up the velocity rather than just fading loud stuff in from zero.

[hisboyelroy@his]

Another way that I get a similar effect is by using a Convolution 'verb (in my case Logic's space designer) and loading up a really long IR (like 14 seconds) and then reverseing the IR in the plug and tweaking the controls so I only hear the wet signal and none of the original sound.

Put that on a channel and run a short burst (or longer) or any sample you like through it and record the output. You might have to experiment around with different IR's and stick other fx before or after it (like a phaser or ring mod, delay, etc.) The end result is a very gradual build up to a very nice "woosh" type sound with lots of impact, again depending on the original sample. I run voices, drums, guitars, you name it in there and see what happens.

HTH

Tim

[kosi]

What you're looking for is a whole orchestra playing a crescendo.
You can build this pretty easy with a sample library for yourself. You start with a Tympani cresc (or more drums), then add the cymbal-Cresc. These have to end with a definite hit.
Then you add the strings and the brass section. Winds you don't really need (but you can)
Play clusters. You can also play quick runs etc, depends, what you want. You can start with one instrumenst group and bring in the rest later and and and
The most important part is the Volume-Swell, that's, what get's the attention, most orchestra ramps start soft and increase in the end like a logarhitmic curve.
And they have to stop very exact, to achieve the desired result !

Listen e.g. to Stravinskys Firebird Suite with the score, there you can see it (if you can read the score...)

I hope, I'm helpful

[MarkusColeman]

Originally Posted by kosi

Listen e.g. to Stravinskys Firebird Suite with the score, there you can see it (if you can read the score...)

I hope, I'm helpful

Firebird Suite Introduction

[mute13]

Is there any KSP for kontakt to do this purpose ?

[kosi]

Sorry, what's a KSP ?

[woomanmoomin]

Actually, analographi, you might learn a thing or two just by going to an orchestral concert and watching how the different orchestral sections interact. Anything by Stravinsky would be great for that, because his music can be so damn dynamic. (Check out 'The Rite of Spring' if you're bored of 'The Firebird'.)

[analographi]

I checked out the stravinsky videos..!

Damn!!! Really amazing, the dynamic, incredible!

The wushes just pass so fast, I can't really figur out how they are done...

I can hear what the percussion mostly does. Simply "roll" and get louder, but all kinds of percussion, which makes it so huge.

But for the other instruments? I understand crescendo, but for long wushes it can't be just one note. I believe there are many ways to do it, but basically they just play fast notes like 16th or something and increase in volume? But if so, how do they interact so that it's just "one piece" and I can not hear the instruments play the 16ths or what ever rythm?

I have to go to concert! Yes!

Thanks for the inputs!

[kosi]

Here are 2 examples for you.
Ramp 01 is a pretty straightforward thing, only crescendo, no runs, trillers etc. at the very end comes a little harp-glissando as an intro for the end-accent.
Ramp 02 is an example without Bass and Horns, where you can hear very good, what the instruments are doing. Flutes and Clarinets play wholetone trillers, harp play repeated notes (so called bisbigliandos), the strings play tremoloes and 4 notes chromatic up and down and so on, the piano gives some "scary" accents, and they all move up in volume together with the cymbal. (Here btw you can recognize also, that one stringplayer didn't hit the end right and plays one note too much)

These are only 2 small examples, there are millions of ways to do these things.

[analographi]

Thank you very very much Kosi.

So the first example, if you say "no runs", they are just playing one note? I ask because it's so long. Aren't, for example, the different string players "passing" to each other to maintain the illusion of hearing only one note?

the second :-) what stringplayer ??? :-) man you've got to have microscope perecision in hearing. I hear nothing :-) But I keep trying ;-)

[treymonfauntre]

Originally Posted by analographi

Thank you very very much Kosi.

So the first example, if you say "no runs", they are just playing one note? I ask because it's so long. Aren't, for example, the different string players "passing" to each other to maintain the illusion of hearing only one note?

the second :-) what stringplayer ??? :-) man you've got to have microscope perecision in hearing. I hear nothing :-) But I keep trying ;-)

turn the volume up perhaps?

[kosi]

Yeah, they play one note, as quick tremoloes, but there are no runs or trills and all they do is become louder over time.
In the 2nd one, listen closely to the end and try to concentrate on the violins on the last note. Instead of ending togehther on one "wap" it sound like "waddap"
and don't worry, it takes a while, to get your ears to separate the whole stuff.

[woomanmoomin]

Nice files and posts, kosi, but I think you mean vibrato (quickly repeated single notes, as when a string player's bow darts backwards and forwards on the same note) and not tremolo (what the string players do when they rock their fingertips against the necks of their instruments, and also what BB King does better with his fretboard hand than anyone else on guitar). I'd thought I'd better clear that up, as we're talking about audio files now and analographi is really curious about all this.

analographi, glad to hear you're enjoying the feedback.

[sguali]

Miroslav should do the trick...

[kosi]

Originally Posted by woomanmoomin

Nice files and posts, kosi, but I think you mean vibrato (quickly repeated single notes, as when a string player's bow darts backwards and forwards on the same note) and not tremolo (what the string players do when they rock their fingertips against the necks of their instruments, and also what BB King does better with his fretboard hand than anyone else on guitar). I'd thought I'd better clear that up, as we're talking about audio files now and analographi is really curious about all this.

Sorry, but I have to disagree: Tremolo is the quick repetition of notes, (going upbowdownbow) and Vibrato is the BB King thing, like bending the pitch up and down.
I'm sitting here in front of my Giga Samplers and have tons of tremolos every day

Here are 2 examples:
1. Vibrato, you can gear very good, how the vibrato comes slowly in.
2. Tremolo

Both sounds from Vienna Instruments, Appassionata Strings, 25 Violins