Verse chorus verse chorus. Have I got it wrong?

[juicylime]

I've been experimenting with electronic music but within the same structural vein as the standard songwriting I've been doing for years: versre, chorus etc with the same instruments playing but offering change by moving to different chords and melodic sequences for each section. But it doesn't seem to work every time in electronic music like it does with rock, does it?! So I've been lisitening to Mylo, Massive Attack, Daft Punk & Air (all amaing) but I can't tell what the hell is going on. I can tell when I've moved from one section to another but i can't tell if the feeling of change is coming primarily from chord changes or rythym or feel or "air" or something else.
Has anyone got any advice on this? Should I change sounds alot between each part of the song? Are chord changes less important than in rock?

[cynic one]

i'd like to hear other's take on this as well.

most of the time i get trapped into the:

intro(with parts from chorus) / verse / chorus / verse / chorus / bridge / verse / chorus / outro

type of structure..........................

[Tom H]

Ok, personally i don't think the verse - chorus approach in dance / electronic music is essential. It's more about the sounds and how they develop during a track..

Bringing a verse-chorus thing into it makes it too poppy for me i guess. The strength of a lot of dance productions can be their breakdowns or hypnotic moments in the middle of a track (that's not a bridge to me) and i'm not talking about trance music here. I think it's about getting a groove on and adding bits and leaving stuff and keeping it exciting...

[Stevil]

what yer hearing is deviations in the pop forumla. theres still verses & choruses but they are tweaking them around. throwing in breaks, pre-chorus or 2 choruses & interchanging them, ignoring the chorus altogether... if you listen to early massive attack "protection", it's a more traditional formula. the newer stuff is the advanced course.

try stacking some loops to establish a groove & dropping them in & out to see how they build & descend together. theres alot of building a wall of sound to a massive crecendo then tearing it down & build again. the change can come from anywhere. theres not really any set in stone rules, it's all about finding a formula that works for you. think of patch or sound changes like switching on a distortion pedal for the chorus or whatever.

a couple other electronic bands to look @ underworld & leftfield.

[ignatius]

i tend to do this:

Vecho r s e c h seorv erus v che ro se ch ver orus

[NewSc2]

to me it's more buildup breakdown buildup breakdown buildup (YAAAYAHHHH!!!) breakdown (whooo!), next song.

[ShaneFontane]

traditional structure works well for radio edits and pop dance or any style of electronic that should fall within the under 5 minute marker... especially with vocals.

the 5 minute + mixes that are for the dance floor are built for djs and thus hold a different structure from pop... for example, the introduction isn't a showcase of what's to come - it's a drum patten thats setting the pace and allowing the dj time to transition into the next record or cd... dance floor version may change in tempo from radio... radio may be just a few BPMs slower... you can also consider things like extended breakdowns and bridges, whereas this may be 8 measures in pop - this part can last 16, 32 or 64 measure pending on the genre of music... all this has to do with how fast time passes in real life on a dance floor vs how slow time goes by sitting in your car, at your desk etc...

then of course, there are structures that are more advanced then pop and dance floor arrangements... these arrangements are usually for music aficionados... music snobs, arts, etc who desire a challenging experience whereas to take them on a journey from a to b and back to a but not always and definitely not in an expecting structure such as verse, chorus verse. this music is considered listening music or mood music...

so, i hope this may help shed some light and good luck with your work

[ftngrave]

Form is difficult for many people, and used to be a lot more so for me. I am a composer and songwriter, sometimes fusing the same elements in both but I also view them quite separately as well. If you think about it, form is-how long should this musical material last, how should it develop or vary, and when should I arrive to music different enough to be called a new section, and how does this change take place? I think it will help you to ask fundamental questions like this.

If you were able to read a chapter from a music theory book on form, this would help you as well with electronic music. Aphex twin and some of the massive attack i've heard is like what's called continuous variation. The entire piece or track is the same music material that gradually changes over time. Here, the elements of music are broken down to things like rhythm, melody, harmony, timbre; you decide which of these or how many of them you're going to vary at a given point in time. This is currently popular and appears in composer's music like Stockhausen and Xenakis. A song's verse chorus stuff is more like binary form, you have an A, then a B, and so on. You tried altering each one, but weren't satisfied. I think if you change the harmonic movement of a section, let it last as long as it needs to. Or if you like the variation you've come up with so much, make it a C section later in a bigger version after the second chorus. I think also, you can alter things like rhythm and timbre with great success in what you're describing. You have A, B, A with new timbres and some taken away, B more complex rhythmically, ect. The adding and taking away of textures or loops is an easy way also to get away from the verse chorus binary way of thinking.

Anyway, hope this might help. I used to think about form all the time, and it began when I got into electronic music. I think the thing you realize about form is that the possibilities are endless, and the history of music, like many things in art, shows you how little potential has been realized (in a way). Try ABabACdAeF. Those letters denoting sections could be a lot different from each other or not very much. But the variation between the A's and a's, which should be related in some way, is what gives a piece direction. The binary verse/chorus thing doesn't seem to work so well because it doesn't go anywhere as well without vocals. So try variation techniques that create a sense of direction.

[theoryinmotion]

Much of our music does go verse - chorus - verse - bridge - chorus.....
but not all of it. Really there is no rule of thumb to creating good electronic music. The real thing is whether the production, the edits, the sounds, the progressions, all work together.

I say try to be different. If it is good, it is good. You don't need some formula to make it that way. But you can use a formula if you want. The possiblities are up to you.

Chords may not be as important, often times we have no real idea what chord we are in at a particular time in a song....we usually have some rough idea of what key we are in, but chord progressions get lost to us as we use a ton of sounds that somewhat defy any progression.

Check our stuff out. I think you will see that many different stuctures and formulas will work if completed and produced with enough time and effort put into the song.

www.myspace.com/theoryinmotion

-dillin

[theoryinmotion]

Originally Posted by ShaneFontane

traditional structure works well for radio edits and pop dance or any style of electronic that should fall within the under 5 minute marker... especially with vocals.

the 5 minute + mixes that are for the dance floor are built for djs and thus hold a different structure from pop... for example, the introduction isn't a showcase of what's to come - it's a drum patten thats setting the pace and allowing the dj time to transition into the next record or cd... dance floor version may change in tempo from radio... radio may be just a few BPMs slower... you can also consider things like extended breakdowns and bridges, whereas this may be 8 measures in pop - this part can last 16, 32 or 64 measure pending on the genre of music... all this has to do with how fast time passes in real life on a dance floor vs how slow time goes by sitting in your car, at your desk etc...

then of course, there are structures that are more advanced then pop and dance floor arrangements... these arrangements are usually for music aficionados... music snobs, arts, etc who desire a challenging experience whereas to take them on a journey from a to b and back to a but not always and definitely not in an expecting structure such as verse, chorus verse. this music is considered listening music or mood music...

so, i hope this may help shed some light and good luck with your work

Very good post and information!!!

[gsilbers]

Dance music and electronic music i ngeneral go ABA structure.

when u are composing and adding chord changes . melody etc, thats the chorus. from that you make a loop staying in tonic or closest to tonic. (Do).

this will sound silly to most musicians but you basically have up to bar 33 to just have drums or ritmic elemnt. this is the part the DJ uses to cue up after the last song.

then you have a small break (8-16 bars) to let the audience know that its a new song.


then you go to A section which is drums and bass only and transitional effecs for a long as time. if u get bored with it , then the loop is not that good.
if its a sick ass loop you only need to add transitional effects every 8 bars. swoooshes, delay dubs etc. shit that will mostly be panned to the sides.

the function if this part is to have that tribal element of call and response with synthy element and cool sound design.

you also add the parts of that section in parts. like drum and bass 1st then extra percusion then a synth stab on beat 1 and off3 and then a stabs on 2 and 4... stuff like that.


the is the breakdown which the relax part of thing. listeners take a break , you make it luch and relaxing. that for 16-32 bars. you can divide by 2 where after the 1st half of the relaxing part, you create the "hand in the air" feel by doing some crazy sequence/arp gate efec with a synth. to later go into the chorus or main section.

the main section is about 16 bars-32bars with melody and all full blown music..or all the parts.

then you return to the 1st section of groove for a long as while.. 32-64 bars of groove
this is the part where the DJ starts cueing the 1st part of the next song.

[mavertron]

Originally Posted by ftngrave

Form is difficult for many people, and used to be a lot more so for me. I am a composer and songwriter, sometimes fusing the same elements in both but I also view them quite separately as well. If you think about it, form is-how long should this musical material last, how should it develop or vary, and when should I arrive to music different enough to be called a new section, and how does this change take place? I think it will help you to ask fundamental questions like this.

If you were able to read a chapter from a music theory book on form, this would help you as well with electronic music. Aphex twin and some of the massive attack i've heard is like what's called continuous variation. The entire piece or track is the same music material that gradually changes over time. Here, the elements of music are broken down to things like rhythm, melody, harmony, timbre; you decide which of these or how many of them you're going to vary at a given point in time. This is currently popular and appears in composer's music like Stockhausen and Xenakis. A song's verse chorus stuff is more like binary form, you have an A, then a B, and so on. You tried altering each one, but weren't satisfied. I think if you change the harmonic movement of a section, let it last as long as it needs to. Or if you like the variation you've come up with so much, make it a C section later in a bigger version after the second chorus. I think also, you can alter things like rhythm and timbre with great success in what you're describing. You have A, B, A with new timbres and some taken away, B more complex rhythmically, ect. The adding and taking away of textures or loops is an easy way also to get away from the verse chorus binary way of thinking.

Anyway, hope this might help. I used to think about form all the time, and it began when I got into electronic music. I think the thing you realize about form is that the possibilities are endless, and the history of music, like many things in art, shows you how little potential has been realized (in a way). Try ABabACdAeF. Those letters denoting sections could be a lot different from each other or not very much. But the variation between the A's and a's, which should be related in some way, is what gives a piece direction. The binary verse/chorus thing doesn't seem to work so well because it doesn't go anywhere as well without vocals. So try variation techniques that create a sense of direction.

thankyou, this was helpful and interesting, i too fall into the ab/ab/c/b structure when im writing (but i do write stuff thats poppy) - but still it doesnt have to do this, lots of great pop songs have messed up structures.
A problem i often have is that i get too excited when im writing, and the standard progression makes it easy to get somewhere quickly.

Must have more patience...

great thread.

[woomanmoomin]

Everybody just shut up and make yer music I have no freakin' idea how you should be making your music, or how. Isn't it about self-expression???!!!

[gsilbers]

yes! and your self expresion sucks!

[lazzaro]

Part III of this "Masterclass" on Trance Music
that ran in Computer Music Magazine a while
back:

http://mos.futurenet.com/pdf/compute...uk/trance3.pdf

Has a nice chart showing the structure of a
typical trance track. The other parts of the
series were too paint-by-numbers for my
taste, but are available here if you want to
look at them:

http://mos.futurenet.com/pdf/compute...uk/trance1.pdf
http://mos.futurenet.com/pdf/compute...uk/trance2.pdf

These take a long time to download, so be
patient ...

[mavertron]

dfegad

Originally Posted by woomanmoomin

Everybody just shut up and make yer music I have no freakin' idea how you should be making your music, or how. Isn't it about self-expression???!!!

jesus... its a discussion dude. about song structure.

what a dink.

[DISCERN]

Originally Posted by ShaneFontane

then of course, there are structures that are more advanced then pop and dance floor arrangements... these arrangements are usually for music aficionados... music snobs, arts, etc who desire a challenging experience whereas to take them on a journey from a to b and back to a but not always and definitely not in an expecting structure such as verse, chorus verse. this music is considered listening music or mood music...

I've come to the conclusion that there are two types of music "listeners". There are the ones that actually listen. They sit down with the intent on just listening and can happily listen to a 45minute piece of music unfold before deciding if they like the piece. Then there are those that use music more as the soundtrack to their lives. They listen while driving, they listen while having drinks with friends, they listen while cleaning the house. They have a musically short attention span and usually form an opinion after 20 or 30 seconds... welcome to pop world of music, its just like advertising.

Naturally, they both have different tastes in music... often which are very exclusive of each other. The first might be able to listen to a piece of pop music once or twice before they become bored of it, due to its shallowness in comparison to their usual listening habits. The second might be able to get half way through a 45 minute piece of music before turning it off or simply tuning out because it doesn't present itself entirely in the first 20 or 30 seconds, just like a coke-a-cola commerical.

The former in a music snob. They like their music to be envolving, just like enjoying every bite of a big thick juicey steak. They savour every mouthful.

The latter is musically ignorant. They want it served in a paper wrap where they can yank it off and gobble it down and continue on with their day.

I find it interesting when they swap positions, when those who usually listen to pop music as it plays on their ipod on the train actually sit down and put that same music on and just sit and listen and only listen. They usually get bored pretty fast. I don't think it has anything to do with snobbery or ignorance... its just a plain ol' preference, just like TV. Some people will watch whatever is on TV, they just like watching TV. Some people will only watch TV when there is something they specifically want to watch.

I think structure and the listening audience are very much related. On one hand you have people using common structures calling people who don't "music snobs". On the other hand you have those "music snobs" acknowledging and using such a simple, fundamental and powerful aspect of music like dynamics, which the other completely ignore.

[edit machine]

i just try to think in terms of "movements" of sounds, if your talking about dance music the idea is to create something that feels like it wants to ***keep going*** (yano, "house music all night long"), in my own work i create more than one "verse type" and "chorus" type and "bridge type" movements for each song, and i pepper them around however feels best.

sometimes it's really nice to have high end melody parts that you can use together or apart, play them at the same time, then alone, then build other high end parts that only work with each of the origionals but not all at the same time, this gives the track feeling of shuffling around, but never resolving.

pop music is about making a point, dance music is about creating a **mood**

...and having fun

[lowkey]

Electronic music form, for me is really about layers and energy. Say you have a drum track and 4-5 other sounds. These might be introduced one at a time, each time keeping the previous sounds. As you build up the layers the enrgy will typically build too. Its then a matter of determining how those layers interact when you start pulling sounds out. the removal of a sound can sometimes increase the energy of a track, by drawing focus to another.

you might find that a couple of the sounds go together well, and a couple of others go together well too. that can then be though of as chorus and verse i spose, and you can use the combination of layers to get you from one point to another over a period of time. Most of my tracks would probably be something like A > A+B > B > B+A > A.

in my experience this kind of energy flow is quite good for dance/club music:
Start from nothing>build up to a point>drop to not much>build up again>half a second silence>track peaks>build down>finish on nothing. actually its good for ambient/listening tracks too.

i always do my arrangements at the end, as i find that the way the sounds interact with each other will determine the order in which they appear in the track.

Some good examples of electronic music form are:
1. Aphex Twin, 'We are the Music Makers', Selected Ambient Works vol 1
This is one of my all time favourite tracks. For electronic music it is quite song like, not something that you would layer up with other tracks really.
2. Daft Punk, 'Da Funk', Homework
pretty classic layered evolving form.
3. Oliver Huntemann, '37 Degrees' or 'Rubin'
for a more recent example of a great track that only really has one idea.


hope that in some way helps

[crufty]

I say take your 909 and sync to your two 303s, hook up to your reverb press play, record & begin knob fiddling.

[juicylime]

Belated thanks to everyone for posting on this. Sometimes gearslutz delivers like no where else. Excelent thread.