Drums with holes and slots...gimmick or discovery?

[Jamz]

Cymbals and/or snare drums with holes in them...gimmick or discovery?

When a cymbal would crack it was advised to drill a hole to stop the crack from speading in order to save the cymbal. Now there are new cymbals being manufactured with large holes littered all over them. Can anyone using these cymbals comment on the effect of this design?

Snare drums too. Holes and slotted. Merely an attempt by drum companies to motivate additional purchases or is this really an amazing discovery?

[Slipperman]

Hey Jim.

Not a new thing on the 'drum' side of the tracks.

Slotted/holed drums were in use 25 years ago. I was using them as a player back then.

Better in theory, than in practice(for recording), in my opinion. Do see an occasional exception to that observation for specific tasks. An example would be the 'typewriter snare' sound, for marches and whatnot... which the "split shell" designs do better than anything out there. Drier than the driest dry.

The holed cymbals are utterly baffling to me.

Both in purpose and sound. They are EXTREMELY difficult to integrate with conventional cymbals without individual micing schemes. Decided pain in the arse for questionable musical usefulness, IMHO.

Then again, I felt the same way about the Roto-Tom and the Octoban, and some folks really had their skirt blown up by those inventions.

Best regards,

SM.

[Jamz]

25 years ago!? Wow! Missed them for sure in the 80's. I guess I was getting into the Simmons thing too much
Not saying they didn't exisit but even while working part time at Zaph's Music in Philly during the early/mid 80's I don't recall that design. Today every GC I walk into has a few of them on display. I'm just curious if these drums and cymbals have opened up new doors sonically for percussionists or is it merely a way foor drum/cymbal manufacturers to motivate new buying interest.

The cymbals remind me of those designer jeans that have the razored holes in them.

[ArnieInTheSky]

The concept behind this is venting the drum. Like Slipper says, a good idea but I'd totally agree with him with their sonics. Super fast. The problem is they sacrifice tone. There's no body to the drum at all, which also makes sense seeings how the chopped it out.

The holed cymbals though I thought were a great success. The evolution O-zone has the smoothness and dark sound of an HH cymbal but the trashy-ness of a china. It's pretty fast too. This is a great effect for your cymbal arsenal.

jl

[Slipperman]

Originally Posted by Jamz

25 years ago!? Wow! Missed them for sure in the 80's. I guess I was getting into the Simmons thing too much
Not saying they didn't exisit but even while working part time at Zaph's Music in Philly during the early/mid 80's I don't recall that design. Today every GC I walk into has a few of them on display. I'm just curious if these drums and cymbals have opened up new doors sonically for percussionists or is it merely a way foor drum/cymbal manufacturers to motivate new buying interest.

The cymbals remind me of those designer jeans that have the razored holes in them.

Ludwig made a split shell mahogany 14x10 that had individually adjustable snare strainers. Used it live like a madman from 1981-1986. Still got it somewhere. Maybe my Mom's house.

Premier made a drum called the "Project One(?)" with a big old hole for the mic on the side in a really bizarre "double shell" design. Had onna doze 2. Used it in studio on a record with Clarence Clemmons and some Singer-Songwriter cat from the Bahamas called "Capt. ???"(Can't remember/dreadful). Engineer was the ever grouchy/hilarious Bob Yauger. Who dubbed it a "Boat Anchor" to the concerted amusement of the assembled mob. I took it down in shame and put up the Radio King. Sold the drum about a week later to some drum shop in Syracuse. I thought it sounded decent on my side of the glass, but it really had gone down like a fart in church more than once in sessions.

As for the holey cymbals. Well... like I said... one man's poison... and speaking of bizarre china stylee stuff. Does anybody remember the Meinl "Double Dragon" line of chinas from the mid 80's? They were very "hit or miss"... but if you got a good one, the 16" china was one of the most useful and unusual sounding pieces of brass I have ever encountered. Shaped like a standard crash. Made of very soft metal. Amazing for "fast china" fusion stuff. Cracked the first one I had after about a year of VIGOROUS use. Ordered another. Sounded dreadful. Unusable. Ordered another. Also lackluster. Went to dealer in desperation. Tried about 8 of them. Found one. Not as amazing as my first but very respectable.

Cracked after about 6 weeks.

Gave up in disgust.

Ahh me.

Anyhoo.

BTW. The sole reason for my disparaging comments on the "holey cymbals" stems from a less than wonderful experience about 3 weeks ago attempting to integrate them sonically with a conventional cymbal/micing array. Disastrous. Might have been where the kid had them hung/Player. In any event... I'm sure we'll see more of them soon. Maybe I'll have a revised opinion then.

Certainly wouldn't be the first time. HOHOHO.

Best regards,

SM.

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by slipperman

Ludwig made a split shell mahogany 14x10 that had individually adjustable snare strainers. Used it live like a madman from 1981-1986. Still got it somewhere. Maybe my Mom's house.

Mom's house...seems like a universal storage facility

Originally Posted by slipperman

Premier made a drum called the "Project One(?)" with a big old hole for the mic on the side in a really bizarre "double shell" design. Had onna doze 2. Used it in studio on a record with Clarence Clemmons and some Singer-Songwriter cat from the Bahamas called "Capt. ???"(Can't remember/dreadful). Engineer was the ever grouchy/hilarious Bob Yauger. Who dubbed it a "Boat Anchor" to the concerted amusement of the assembled mob. I took it down in shame. Sold it about a week later to some drum shop in Syracuse.

That's hilarious. Hey at least you tried things. http://gearslutz.com/board/images/smilies/nu/icon30.gif

[Slipperman]

Just dug these up.

Gotta flee.

Still haven't been to bed.

Session call at 1pm.

What IS my problem?

Insomnia. Going crazy. Etc.

XOXOXO

Slippy

[Jamz]

Nice.
Look at the dust on these.
Nothing fancy. Pretty missionary collection.
I'm sure I have a brass shell somewhere for Pearl floating system. I'll bet it's at my Mom's!

[cortisol]

IMO the cymbal manufacturers want to sell cymbals, so things like Zil bells and cymbals with holes get thought of. Personally I like the idea new cymbal sounds but as Slipperman said they don't intergrate with traditional cymbals too well.

For me this is actually a blessing! I like to use these sounds with newer music such as Drum and Bass/Jungle and electronica styles. I might go for a traditional sound for a section of a song and then change things up for an electronica section. I think these new cymbals integrate well over filtered loops, synths and industrial noises. Guess what kinda music I make... mwu-ha-ha-ha!

I love to stack broken cymbals and to use my sampling drum pad for effect and not integration into the sound of the traditional kit.

I think that the more you cut away or the bigger the holes you make then this will take the cymbal further away from what a cymbal is eg. I have some Sabian fast hats. They are a fairly heavy, thick hat and are good for big sloshy slurs and semi open sounds but the bottom hat has a few small holes in it to allow it to close a bit quicker. It sounds traditional but with a slightly nicer response and a louder chick sound. Same for sound edge hats.

Peace,
cortisol

[nathanvacha]

I don't have direct experience with the vented snares, but aren't they (not sure about split shell) always touted to be louder? Intended for venue work more than making a record?

[2A Batterie]

What about those new DW snare drums that have the vent that opens and closes on the fly? Anyone have any thoughts/opinions/experiences with them?

[C/G]

I've used a stainless steel Dunett with the little air vent that opens and closes. It definitely works in changing the tone of the snare drum.

[chetatkinsdiet]

Originally Posted by slipperman

Ludwig made a split shell mahogany 14x10 that had individually adjustable snare strainers. Used it live like a madman from 1981-1986. Still got it somewhere. Maybe my Mom's house.

Premier made a drum called the "Project One(?)" with a big old hole for the mic on the side in a really bizarre "double shell" design. Had onna doze 2. Used it in studio on a record with Clarence Clemmons and some Singer-Songwriter cat from the Bahamas called "Capt. ???"(Can't remember/dreadful). Engineer was the ever grouchy/hilarious Bob Yauger. Who dubbed it a "Boat Anchor" to the concerted amusement of the assembled mob. I took it down in shame and put up the Radio King. Sold the drum about a week later to some drum shop in Syracuse. I thought it sounded decent on my side of the glass, but it really had gone down like a fart in church more than once in sessions.


SM.

Weren't the Premier shells with that double shell design called "resonators"? ....hardly.....haha.

As for the larger holes in snares......it's basically a matter of venting. Remember late 50s Slings didn't even have the normal vent holes. This works on drums that are not hit as hard. It keeps every possible vibration and all energy inside the drum. Similar to studio construction, the sound waves look for the easiest way out....the drumhead. Therefore, more resonant and tone out of said drum.
But, what about when you really lay into it? The drum chokes itself out. So, the vent hole is needed. Now, the larger the holes, the less likely the drum is to choke out on harder hits. That means you can hit it harder and get more volume, right? Right, but at the expense of actual tone. That's why this concept works well for marching drummers where they're just looking for volume with their tree trunk sticks and kevlar heads and uber-tensioned drums. But, it's really overkill for most kit players.

later,

m

[pan60]

was their not some shell-less drums out for a while?
seems i remember something a add or who knows what, ( i am not a drummer and know nothing about drums ) about floating rim's and no shell's.
who knows maybe i was drinking and just dreamed it.

[Bounce]

I gotta say I just LOVE the Sabian crash with big holes in it! It has this kinda longer sustain and is somewhere between a crash and a china. Smooth but trashy all at once. Very cool.

[Jamz]

Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet

Weren't the Premier shells with that double shell design called "resonators"? ....hardly.....haha.

As for the larger holes in snares......it's basically a matter of venting. Remember late 50s Slings didn't even have the normal vent holes. This works on drums that are not hit as hard. It keeps every possible vibration and all energy inside the drum. Similar to studio construction, the sound waves look for the easiest way out....the drumhead. Therefore, more resonant and tone out of said drum.
But, what about when you really lay into it? The drum chokes itself out. So, the vent hole is needed. Now, the larger the holes, the less likely the drum is to choke out on harder hits. That means you can hit it harder and get more volume, right? Right, but at the expense of actual tone. That's why this concept works well for marching drummers where they're just looking for volume with their tree trunk sticks and kevlar heads and uber-tensioned drums. But, it's really overkill for most kit players.

later,

m

Educational...and entertaining. nice!
Makes sense.
Looking at the snares pictured in my initial post I have a confusing time understanding why drummers were always sold on the type of wood, tone, layers of ply, quality of the beval only to then go crazy with a 3" circular saw.

I suppose any non-traditional design concept such as the ones being discussed might be substantiated as a colorful tone addition or even just a louder snare when needed. However, I can't help wondering where the line is drawn between flexing marketing ideas as opposed to truly pushing the envelope.

[chetatkinsdiet]

Originally Posted by pan60

was their not some shell-less drums out for a while?
seems i remember something a add or who knows what, ( i am not a drummer and know nothing about drums ) about floating rim's and no shell's.
who knows maybe i was drinking and just dreamed it.

Rototoms? Rogers Skinny drums 30 or so years ago? Arbiter drums? They all had some sort of small or no shell design.

later,

m

[brendondp]

Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet

As for the larger holes in snares......it's basically a matter of venting. Remember late 50s Slings didn't even have the normal vent holes. This works on drums that are not hit as hard. It keeps every possible vibration and all energy inside the drum. Similar to studio construction, the sound waves look for the easiest way out....the drumhead. Therefore, more resonant and tone out of said drum.
But, what about when you really lay into it? The drum chokes itself out. So, the vent hole is needed. Now, the larger the holes, the less likely the drum is to choke out on harder hits. That means you can hit it harder and get more volume, right? Right, but at the expense of actual tone. That's why this concept works well for marching drummers where they're just looking for volume with their tree trunk sticks and kevlar heads and uber-tensioned drums. But, it's really overkill for most kit players.

On certain snares, I cut a small 1" hole into the bottom head for those exact reasons. Like chet says, it does sacrifice a little bit of tone, but not as much as you'd get on say, a split shell drum.

Cheers to all,

bdp