i have a question about recording rock drums (these days)

[Jeff16years]

so everyone talks about the Bonham drum sound (as they should) when it comes to rock drums. it seems that everyone is going for this sound (just like me)

so here is the question, how come these days everyone is talking smack about big drums? everone talks about the LZ drum sound and at the same time eveyone is using 22" kicks.

i have an idea if JB's drums sounded so great why don't you start by picking up a set of early 70's Ludwigs with a 26"kick, a small rack of something like 14", with 16" and 18" floor toms.
wouldn't that be a good start?

is it just me?

[84K]

Well, in another post, I put up a sample of a made in Taiwan Bonham reissue kit. It has the sound. Which is great, for some things...

I Went To Guitar Center For A New Head, And Left With A New Kit!

I also have a DW kit. For modern rock (consisting of 10 guitar tracks on one song at times) it is hard to make Bonham-esque drums translate with all that extra space being taken up by all the other instruments.

[djui5]

That sound had a lot to do with the room it was recorded in. People forget that. Great drum recording rooms are becoming a rariety these days. I don't mean a nice sided normal studio, but a huge live room you can really work, ala Abbey Road, etc.

Another thing to consider is the drummer. Performance has more to do with the size of the kit, than what kit is being played.

So who's recording "big drums"? I haven't heard any lately...that I can recall right now. Seems close mic'ing is the norm, with some med sized wood rooms for verb.

[chrisso]

I agree, I don't hear the big, bombastic drum sound much.
Still a lot of room sound, but not like Bonham.
Speaking for myself, I'm not trying to copy Bonham, but I like larger drums.
I usually use either 22" or 24" bass drums and 12" thru 16" toms for recording.
I'm not a fan of those 20"bd, 10", 12" & 14" tom set ups.
They work for other players though.

[Jax]

Originally Posted by Jeff16years

i have an idea if JB's drums sounded so great why don't you start by picking up a set of early 70's Ludwigs with a 26"kick, a small rack of something like 14", with 16" and 18" floor toms.
wouldn't that be a good start?

is it just me?

Not many people are playing Zep-styled music anymore. The sounds have evolved quite a bit since the magic that Bonham created. Yes, the way rock drums have been incorporated into the genre is largely indebted to people like Ringo Starr, Bonham, Bill Ward, Phil Rudd and many others. And yet within each of those styles is a fairly unique drum sound. Meanwhile, obviously they're all ROCK drummers.

IMHO it all hints back to the drummer and how he used his instruments, more than anything else. Kit size, brand, year, etc. etc. isn't nearly as influential as the talent and playing decisions of the drummer.

[Jeff16years]

Originally Posted by 84K

Well, in another post, I put up a sample of a made in Taiwan Bonham reissue kit. It has the sound. Which is great, for some things...

I Went To Guitar Center For A New Head, And Left With A New Kit!

I also have a DW kit. For modern rock (consisting of 10 guitar tracks on one song at times) it is hard to make Bonham-esque drums translate with all that extra space being taken up by all the other instruments.

yes, that's a good point. My band is similar to what you describe too and it is hard to squeeze in the "air" sometimes with all those Marshalls ... but we still try thumbsup

[Jeff16years]

Originally Posted by djui5

That sound had a lot to do with the room it was recorded in. People forget that. Great drum recording rooms are becoming a rariety these days. I don't mean a nice sided normal studio, but a huge live room you can really work, ala Abbey Road, etc.

Another thing to consider is the drummer. Performance has more to do with the size of the kit, than what kit is being played.

So who's recording "big drums"? I haven't heard any lately...that I can recall right now. Seems close mic'ing is the norm, with some med sized wood rooms for verb.

this is very true, but I would say that the kit is a good place to start.
If you have the right drummer and a great room, you're not going to get that sound from a 20" kick drum and a piccilo snare.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by Jeff16years

this is very true, but I would say that the kit is a good place to start.
If you have the right drummer and a great room, you're not going to get that sound from a 20" kick drum and a piccilo snare.

Why yes, if all else is great, meaning the drummer and the room, then sure, work on the kit a little.

[cortisol]

I don't think people are going for a Bonham drum sound these days. There aren't many contemporary rock bands trying for a Led Zep sound, nor a vintage Deep Purple sound etc.

Look at someone like Andy Sneap who uses triggers and his preferred samples for his mixes. The contemporary sound for now seems to be sample replacement. Or sample replacement with other techniques such as parallel compression and multing.

I think that the way Bonham was recorded made for great rock drums with vibe and mood. But as with everything, things are deteriorating to be just representations of what they once were. The world demands progress that is dumbed down then is justified through some intellectual BS. Art, architecture, and music are all becoming low brow for the plebs.

Peace,
cortisol

[chetatkinsdiet]

Originally Posted by Jeff16years

so everyone talks about the Bonham drum sound (as they should) when it comes to rock drums. it seems that everyone is going for this sound (just like me)

so here is the question, how come these days everyone is talking smack about big drums? everone talks about the LZ drum sound and at the same time eveyone is using 22" kicks.

i have an idea if JB's drums sounded so great why don't you start by picking up a set of early 70's Ludwigs with a 26"kick, a small rack of something like 14", with 16" and 18" floor toms.
wouldn't that be a good start?

is it just me?

Our band plays straight ahead rock in the 70s vein and I do use a vintage ludwig kit. 24/14/16/18. I just can't bring myself to lugging around a 26 kick. The 24 is huge enough.

Check out www.myspace.com/natefowlerselixir for clips. Now, if I only had JHB's chops....

later,

m

[Bang]

Brendan O'Brien has been mixing heavily compressed, heavily room based, "Bonhamesque" drums for the last few years. They sound awesome.

[kats]

so here is the question, how come these days everyone is talking smack about big drums? everone talks about the LZ drum sound and at the same time eveyone is using 22" kicks.

Because if you actually give them JB's drum sound they're horrified. What they are actually infactuated with is the sound/style of his drumming.

Granted, it's hard to separate the two - but if you can, the actual drum sound is not what most people are looking for.

Personally, I love the sound itself - but I'm a bit old fashioned

[chetatkinsdiet]

Originally Posted by kats

Because if you actually give them JB's drum sound they're horrified. What they are actually infactuated with is the sound/style of his drumming.

Granted, it's hard to separate the two - but if you can, the actual drum sound is not what most people are looking for.

Personally, I love the sound itself - but I'm a bit old fashioned

amen.....I remember going into a pretty high end studio about 10 years ago. We knew to bring in music that we wanted to sound like. When we popped in Exile on Main St, the engineer said, "you want to sound like that? All the instruments are muddled together and nothing really stands out."

Exactly.

m

[thekb]

1. I agree that most drummers are afraid of the sound ..when they hear it they think it lacks focus because of the ratio of direct to ambient room sound.

2. As an E/M/P I have chosen to create huge drums in the spirit of JB but very few project lack the apropriate room in the mix for something so huge. The JB sound takes up a ton of sonic real-estate and arrangements must reflect that. In our world of double-tracked, stero bus compressor slammed , huger and louder mixes the fact is that there is not much room left for massive drums.

3. IMHO the sound has less to do with the size of the bass drum (many classic rock recordings from the 60's and 70' used 20" bass drums) than it does the tuning and striking of the drum. The point being you will hear farily little 32-38hz from the bass drum on the final mix. JB was a master (ask Ocheltree his drum tech) of tuning his kit. Many are suprised to hear how tightly tuned his kit was..becasue he understood projection (yes physics) and how the drum worked in a space.

4. My second to last comment on this is related to many current engineers obsession with micing the literal life out of a kit. I have been hired to mix records that have 8-10-15 mics on the kit..I spend all of my time phase correcting just to get them to sound like status quo crap (I call it slap /thud/ sizzzle) listen to the ramones and early Zep records..there were not many mics on the kits ..ramones sessions often used just 4 mics (a technique that I use quite often becasue it just sounds amazing). On JBs stuff two u47s high above JBs head pointing down at the kit from the back were often a large percentage of the huge sound.

5. I also agree that the room is equally as important as the kit and perfromer. It seems many have not been taught to capture an instrument in space (which makes it unique) instead we put a mic two inches from it then add chessy verb to make it have "space" later..a far cry from real depth and soundstage for sure.

my .02

respectfully,

kb

[ToneBender67]

Originally Posted by Jeff16years

so everyone talks about the Bonham drum sound (as they should) when it comes to rock drums. it seems that everyone is going for this sound (just like me)

so here is the question, how come these days everyone is talking smack about big drums? everone talks about the LZ drum sound and at the same time eveyone is using 22" kicks.

i have an idea if JB's drums sounded so great why don't you start by picking up a set of early 70's Ludwigs with a 26"kick, a small rack of something like 14", with 16" and 18" floor toms.
wouldn't that be a good start?

is it just me?

I have several early 70's 3-ply Bonham sized kits, but that isn't going to make you sound like Bonham. Zeppelin I was recorded with a 22, 13, 16 3-ply Ludwig kit, and he still got a big sound. There are a lot of factors involved, which go beyond the gear he used. I'll touch on a few obvious and a few not so obvious points:

His tuning was very unique. Lots of people call it "big band" tuning, but I disagree. I think Buddy Rich and Louis Bellson when I hear big band tuning, where the drums sound almost like biscuit tins. He didn't have the typical 70's-tape kotex to everything-dead drum sound, yet his drums weren't cranked up like Buddy's "fire cracker" snare. Bonham tuned up (his reso heads especially) to project over stacks of Marshalls, but only so high as to remain punchy and deep. If I had to describe the range of his tuning, I'd say medium-high. His drums would project, yet still had punch.

The room is very important, as are the mic's, EQ, and compression. Compression played a big factor in his sound, and not just in the studio. There are pictures floating around where you can see several Urei 1176's on stage behind or next to the drum riser. I'd bet they were being employed on his drums.

Bonham had a good understanding of dynamics. It's hard to mic a kit with just room/overheads and get a successfull balance since most drummers tend to beat the crap out of the snare, then tickle the toms when it comes time for a fill. Bonham played steady around the kit, which allowed for ambient mic'ing.

A factor that goes unnoticed and is never mentioned are the sticks he used (ok, I slipped in some gear talk, humour me Slutz...).
I used to think "a drum stick is a drum stick", but I've learned otherwise. Bonham used thick sticks (2B's allegedly) which would have head a pretty large bead/tip. This effected his sound, especially in regards to cymbals. I own one of his RIDE cymbals, and if I'm using a 5A with it, I'm not getting the spread and wash like he did.

I'd say if you can get a Bonham-esque sound, you're doing well. I've played Bonzo in a Zeppelin tribute and the job required me to replicate his sound/playing verbatim. Live, using a Vistalite kit and vintage 2002's, I did a damn good job getting the "Song Remains the Same" album/film sound. When we went in the studio to record promo, I nearly tore my hair out trying to replicate the records. I had vintage pre's, compressors, mic's, the right kits, cymbals, and I could only get so close (and still wasn't happy). It's going to be impossible to "nail it", as there are just too many factors involved. Do the best you can and don't obsesses over it. Bonham had an awesome sound, but I think the reason we talk about him is more due to his amazing playing. Come up with a good groove, play half a mile behind the beat, use what's at your disposal to achieve a "big" sound, and the casual observer (ie: 98% of the record buying public) is gonna say "cool, sounds like Zep".

[C/G]

Originally Posted by kats

Because if you actually give them JB's drum sound they're horrified. What they are actually infactuated with is the sound/style of his drumming.

Granted, it's hard to separate the two - but if you can, the actual drum sound is not what most people are looking for.

Personally, I love the sound itself - but I'm a bit old fashioned

I'm with you. I go for a Bonhamesque sound when I play but that is simply because I learned how to play listening to my sisters Zeppelin albums 25 years ago.

I thinks it is due to more than style than the kit choice. I have always lusted after that sound as well, even back in my hardcore days in the mid to late 80's when I cut my teeth playing in punk bands. Everything had a dry drum sound but I wanted to sound like like Bonham.