To Quantize or not to Quantize

[dosilegecko]

So I'm about to track drums for a few of my bands new songs. We are a heavy rock/ metal sound.

I am the one playing the drums AND recording them. I'm gonna be close micing all the drums, and then having two overheads and a room or two.

overheads - rode nt5
snare - SM57 or i5
kick - beta52
toms - Cad M179
room - LDC lying around?

I am pretty happy with my playing and how I play to a click, but I was wondering if its common to just snap everything to a perfect grid for this genre. I'd rather just get the drum takes sounding solid by PLAYING them that way, rather than trying to quantize them. But if it is basically necessary then I guess I'd quantize them.

What do you think?

[biggator6]

Is it common to quantize? Yes
Is it necessary? Maybe
Do I prefer it? No

I personally think that it's done WAY too much now. Why? Maybe laziness? Maybe the need to do it because everyone else does?

It drives me crazy that every drummer sounds the same now on records (at least modern rock/metal/pop records) - because it's so often quantized and sample-replaced.

I'd rather hear a good (but not 'perfect') performance than to hear more quantized/sampled drums.

[gabriel_au]

To me it is a fairly simple decision

can the drummer groove? DO NOT QUANTIZE OR I WILL FIND YOU AND KILL YOU

can he not groove? meh, go ahead and robotize that ****

When it comes to modern rock/metal, the kick and snare placement need to be pretty precise or you'll lose a lot of weight so you need a fairly consistent drummer to not sample replace or move a few odd hits. But maybe quantizing the whole performance is too much?

[erikdrink]

More personality without...more groove...

[joeq]

Originally Posted by dosilegecko

but I was wondering if its common to just snap everything to a perfect grid for this genre. I'd rather just get the drum takes sounding solid by PLAYING them that way, rather than trying to quantize them. But if it is basically necessary then I guess I'd quantize them.

What do you think?

I think the people MAKING the music are the ones who decide what is 'necessary'. There is no point in seeking out a rationale for appeasement. Do it your way unless and until there is some clear pressure that forces you to knuckle under.

[chrisso]

I think moving drums around, 'fixing them' if you will is very common.
Qualtizing by snapping to a grid I would think is much less common.
If you're going to do that you might as well use programmed drum software or a drum machine.
I'm happy to fix timing issues to a certain degree. I would never snap a real drummer (playing to a click) to a grid, because that would kill the human groove and negate using a human to play drums in the first place.

[dosilegecko]

Thanks, sometimes I just need some moral support when this arises. I am very confident in my playing ability, and only write drum parts that I can actually play well and on-time. As for groove: the first song's verses definitely have a cool groove to them that gets lost when I program the drums in. I also noticed that it is really hard to program the exact performance I play too, I tend to do bizarre things akin to what Morgan Rose does of 7dust in his live shows and they just don't have the same feel when I draw em into a grid. I'll give it a shot, I'd rather it be real and something a human actually played.

[JoRillo]

What do you guys think of quantization in hip-hop rap genre? Same way with the "if the performer can bang then don't, if he can't, go ahead? I have gotten quite use to quantizing and im feeling that "robotic sound" your talking about.

[biggator6]

Originally Posted by chrisso

I would never snap a real drummer (playing to a click) to a grid, because that would kill the human groove and negate using a human to play drums in the first place.

I think that's kind of the point, Chris.. once you quantize and sample-replace, you're really just using the kit as an input method for programming drums (which, I suppose, at least gets you more interesting programmed drums?). I guess it's like programming drum parts on an e-kit.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by JoRillo

What do you guys think of quantization in hip-hop rap genre? Same way with the "if the performer can bang then don't, if he can't, go ahead? I have gotten quite use to quantizing and im feeling that "robotic sound" your talking about.

are you talking about a live drummer in a hip-hop project?

[JoRillo]

Straight MIDI with someone playing it via drumpad/keys

[joeq]

Originally Posted by JoRillo

Straight MIDI with someone playing it via drumpad/keys

I would expect that sort of thing to routinely be quantized. Regardless of the skill of the tapper, quantization is a big part of the style. Some people quantize the downbeats only and allow some human swing in-between.

[ArnieInTheSky]

My philosophy in music can be summed up in one word, perspective. Good and bad does not exist. Success of your intention would be the scale of quality.

Using this mind frame, what is your perspective of the tracks? What are the musical implications of using quantizing and not?

Quantizing a track can be desirable if it's end result produces your artistic impression. All the negativity I hear is, "It takes away the feel." or "Groove" or "Humanity!" From this perspective, it does do that. But what if you want to create something "Robotic?" Quantizing would help this. If robotic is insulting than how about, "Hypnotic." Here the technique of quantizing a drum track would be desirable. If you're a loose drummer with a great pocket and get your audiences head to bounce but your intention is to have them drooling and staring, then you've failed at your performance, even though people might like it.

What is your intention and how are you going to get there? This is the question I ask myself and it always makes my decisions for me when I'm stuck. Not, "Is it good or bad," but "Does it do what I want it to?"

[lord_bunny]

i quantize great drummers all the time and i'll tell you that a quantized beginner and a quantized session pro don't sound anything alike. quantizing a session pro or a hot drummer still retains all their ghost strokes and nuances if you know what you're doing.

here's the deal: you grab a whole band together and they groove, if it works you don't want to mess with that. but if you're building up from the ground as a bass player or guitar player or whomever, quantizing just takes the whole mystery out of the equation. you really have to learn the drummers "feel" of that song to really make it sound like it gels. you can learn the quirks of a performance, but i deal with limited budgets and i'm responsible for trying to make a 10k budget sound like a 50k or 100k budget in short order.... quantizing gets me there faster.

anyway, don't let anyone tell you how a record ought to be made, but for me if it's rock and pop i quantize (especially if the drummers awesome, because you get real quick and easy results).

...i hope the art police don't come after me.

[Vapour Trails]

I must admit I didn't know what quantization was before I started reading this thread. I did a little research and know I understand the concept.

I can see quantizing individually mic'd drums, but how would you quantize overheads which capture the entire set?

I mean if you quantized your snare hits, which meant they moved just slightly in a few spots, how do you get the OH recording to match if it also contains cymbal hits, bass drum hits etc.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Vapour Trails

I must admit I didn't know what quantization was before I started reading this thread. I did a little research and know I understand the concept.

I can see quantizing individually mic'd drums, but how would you quantize overheads which capture the entire set?

I mean if you quantized your snare hits, which meant they moved just slightly in a few spots, how do you get the OH recording to match if it also contains cymbal hits, bass drum hits etc.

You group all your tracks together and cut and move them as one.

You chop them up "vertically" on the attack of the note, wiggle them around and then crossfade between each section. So if a snare is late, you cut that snare and move all the drum mics to the point where that snare should be and then fade it smooth. The overheads have to 'travel with' the close mic or as you say, it would be weird.

Even the bleed from a tom mic could mess it up, especially if it keeps changing. Everything was recorded together so everything is cut and moved together.

There is software to help with the drudgery of the actual cutting and moving and cross-fading.

[Curtis Franklin]

It is very common to quantize in this genre, but not everyone does it.

If you are satisfied (and your guitar players can play tight to the tracks) then you should be good.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by joeq

You group all your tracks together and cut and move them as one.

You chop them up "vertically" on the attack of the note, wiggle them around and then crossfade between each section. So if a snare is late, you cut that snare and move all the drum mics to the point where that snare should be and then fade it smooth. The overheads have to 'travel with' the close mic or as you say, it would be weird.

Even the bleed from a tom mic could mess it up, especially if it keeps changing. Everything was recorded together so everything is cut and moved together.

There is software to help with the drudgery of the actual cutting and moving and cross-fading.

I "pocket edit" all the time on rock / pop stuff using the same basic track grouping technique that joeq has stated above which helps avoid the weird phasing stuff. And rather than "quantize" or use beat detective while correcting to the grid, which is pretty rigid and often leaves artifacts, I will do the following if it's a decent drummer:

Lay down a guide audio track of a percussion loop or shaker that has a good, consistent, push / pull that fits the character of the song, making sure that it lasts for the duration of the song. And then, using the leading edges of the drum and loop waveforms as your guide, cut and line up ONLY the quarter notes of the drum part. In other words, only slip the grouped tracks using the kick on beat 1 and 3 and the snare on 2 and 4 for reference, leaving the hats or cymbals which are usually playing eighth or sixteenth notes uncorrected. By doing this, you retain a solidly locked, pocketed feel, but still have an organic, human touch overall due to slight inconsistencies with what's happening with the hats or ride cymbal.

[relayer]

Firstly, it's a misconception that V-drum performances are any more or less prone to quantization than acoustics with audio snap/replacement. A good V-drummer triggering Superior can give just as slamming performance as on an acoustic kit. I play both all the time, and am comfortable recording either way. Recording with V-drums using drum software is a lot more expedient, I can tell you that.

I guess I'm not opposed to sliding a snare hit or ride bell hit, but otherwise, I consider quantizing cheating. An instrumentalist should be able to play his instrument. Just my personal opinion, but why pick on the drums? I've played with several guitarists, bassists, keyboardists, etc. that had timing issues.

Steve