Anti-tom wobble in recording

[Jax]

I recently created a little experiment that involved stabilizing the snare drum to the greatest degree I could manage. Nothing scientific or fancy about my approach - I just planted my feet on the snare stand legs to keep it solid on the floor and then did my usual hand warm ups. The goal was to determine by listening whether or not the snare sounded better or different, and to my ears both were accomplished. The lack of snare movement away from the intended strike zone made it sound slightly more consistent from hit to hit which resulted in a more focused overall sound.

But that's not entirely my reason for the topic. I've thought about this for awhile - you never see a kit that doesn't move around, bounce, jiggle and/or wobble while being played. Some kits (hardware) are better at containing this kinetic movement than others, but they all move when struck. I wince when watching Neil Peart's DW's shamble all over place to the point where I'm surprised he can even hit the same drum twice and sound consistent. Actually, he sometimes doesn't.

I guess it doesn't really matter in most live situations until you factor in recording drums that wobble all over the place. Sure, they can sound fine but they might sound even better if the drums remained more still. The mics are generally expected to be still while recording drums, yet the drums are never still. Aren't we creating phase issues in the mics if the drums rapidly change their position in space and time? Wouldn't it sound better (to some degree at least) if the drums were stabilized?

Hanging floor toms are obviously the worst culprits, particularly on YESS mounts.

[evangelista]

I know more than one professional drummer who prefers light hardware (especially cymbal stands, but also for the tubs).

They like when the hardware "gives". It yields a certain sound and feel unachievable through other means. The common thread I see through the drummers who prefer light hardware is that they are all nuance/feel players, as opposed to prog metal technique mavens. Different tools for different jobs.

[toolskid]

this will sort you out Jax

[Goliath|Audio]

That is nothing short of out there!

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

Just so I understand (not a drummer, but mic em' all the time), are you meaning so the drum stays put and gets struck in the same place each time? So it's not a "moving target"?

Or for the purpose of the mics seeing the same place all the time, and not picking up the drum swaying back and forth? I guess an inch can make a difference no?

Both?

I guess some on some cats it's more than an inch of sway.

I would think using holders that clip on the drum would help some, but good luck with that on overheads.

I clamp all the toms onto the rims, but the snare is usually a stand, top and bottom. I wonder about this too.

peace,
john

ps...I will say I HATE cheap stands, particularly snare stands. I have had two over the years that actually bent downward with the force of being hit, and eventually the wires or bottom head come to rest on the bracing. Sucks!

Bend em' back, they just bend back again. Each time sooner than the first, because the thing is losing it's metal conduct...or whatever you call it.

[Jax]

Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT

Just so I understand (not a drummer, but mic em' all the time), are you meaning so the drum stays put and gets struck in the same place each time? So it's not a "moving target"?

Or for the purpose of the mics seeing the same place all the time, and not picking up the drum swaying back and forth? I guess an inch can make a difference no?

Both?

Both. I'm approaching this from the performance perspective of playing a moving kit and from the perspective of recording such a kit.

I'm not saying there is a problem, just hypothesizing that the potential difference is worth investigating. However, there really isn't an easy way to immobilize a drum. But obviously, drum movement isn't really a problem when it comes to recording good and great drum sounds.

Clip on mics would seem like a workable solution because they move with the drum, but I never like them in use. I know they're supposedly isolated (through various means) from the vibration of the drum transferring into the mic, but they never sound as good compared to using the same mic on a stand, regardless of how much that drum is moving around.

I guess some on some cats it's more than an inch of sway.

Without question! I don't really care for wanky drum solos (actually I find this solo particularly cheesy), but look how much Neil's kit is moving around. Case in point: Neil Peart Drum Solo on Letterman.6/9/2011 - YouTube

ps...I will say I HATE cheap stands, particularly snare stands. I have had two over the years that actually bent downward with the force of being hit, and eventually the wires or bottom head come to rest on the bracing. Sucks!

I've never seen that, not even with ultra cheap Tama snare stands or the thin stand included in the acrolite case. I can see how it would happen with a heavy snare and a heavy handed drummer on a shitty stand, though.

[biggator6]

I guess it depends on the hardware. I don't notice my drums moving very much at all (and have certainly not bent any hardware!).

Perhaps the slight movement is what makes them sound more natural.. the small variation due to movement - like the subtle drift of an analog oscillator vs a sample.

[dcrigger]

Originally Posted by Jax

I'm not saying there is a problem, just hypothesizing that the potential difference is worth investigating. However, there really isn't an easy way to immobilize a drum.

I don't know that is so much the case, but rather that immobilizing the drum tends to negatively affect the sound of the drum.

But obviously, drum movement isn't really a problem when it comes to recording good and great drum sounds.

I agree. Which argues the question... so why then would this "problem" be worth investigating? :-)

David

[Jax]

Originally Posted by dcrigger

I don't know that is so much the case, but rather that immobilizing the drum tends to negatively affect the sound of the drum.

I've probably never heard a drum that was completely prevented from moving when struck. It might not even be possible, but obviously wobble can be contained to differing degrees.

I've heard drums that were more solidly mounted than others, and as I mentioned in the example of the snare, greater consistency of performance meant that the sound was more focused overall. So perhaps a more stable playing surface sounds better controlled and is easier to control, which inevitably sounds like a better performance.

so why then would this "problem" be worth investigating? :-)

I think it's worth experimenting with stability for the above reasons, and because perhaps a drum sounds better with less wobble in any direction. No proof here, just a hypothesis. It's likely a drum that stays in place will sound more localized in the stereo field and probably more detailed in timbre and tonal character if the position from which its sound emanates is not in flux in space and time. Wow, I just broke a nerd blood vessel...

In the case of drums swaying around inside the pickup pattern of a pair of overhead mics, that can only create phase incoherency to greater or lesser degree depending on how much the drum moves.

I'd love to try some hardware engineered for the purpose. I don't think there's much question that it's easier to perform on a drum that isn't moving away from the player's strike zone most of the time.

Just a bit of free thinking here! Wondering if this makes sense.

[surfspank]

Originally Posted by toolskid

this will sort you out Jax

I need to know where I can get one of these. It's like a Jolly Jumper for Drummers.

Jax, I'm beginning to think if Toms were stationary you'd be on here trying to find a way to make them wobble. If you are a Drummer sit down and play your kit and stop toiling over the really petty details. If you are a Tech, well then ask yourself why this isn't an issue for one of the best Drummers on the planet surrounded by some of the best Techs.
Since the days of Tribal and March Drumming, Drums have been moving around when hit. It's natural for the Drum, it works, and it adds life to the kit and player. It's not stopping most Drummers and their Techs from recording great Drum takes. If you think differently, post some samples of your snare experiment to show us what you are talking about. Personally, I think you can accomplish more sonically by playing a flatter kit with a good stroke. Prove me wrong and I buy what you're selling.

[Mylesh]

A lot of drummers find this movement to be preferable. If the the drum doesnt swing free it sounds choked. This is why companies make mounting hardware that makes almost no contact with the shell.

[Jax]

Originally Posted by surfspank

Jax, I'm beginning to think if Toms were stationary you'd be on here trying to find a way to make them wobble.

Nope, just your toms.

If you are a Drummer sit down and play your kit and stop toiling over the really petty details. If you are a Tech, well then ask yourself why this isn't an issue for one of the best Drummers on the planet surrounded by some of the best Techs.

I don't think it's beyond your capacity to understand what I already pointed out about why this idea interests me. If it doesn't interest you, that's cool.

Since the days of Tribal and March Drumming, Drums have been moving around when hit. It's natural for the Drum, it works, and it adds life to the kit and player. It's not stopping most Drummers and their Techs from recording great Drum takes. If you think differently, post some samples of your snare experiment to show us what you are talking about.

This isn't exactly a "put up or shutup" kind of discussion and there's no need to restate what I already said about getting good drum takes.

Personally, I think you can accomplish more sonically by playing a flatter kit with a good stroke. Prove me wrong and I buy what you're selling.

Well, that's at least a little constructive and gives us something to talk about. I have nothing to prove, only a question that I find interesting. Do you have something to prove? Just calm down on the standoffish stuff and maybe we can get somewhere.

When you talk about a flatter kit, I'll assume you mean the toms are more parallel to the ground. I'm not sure how that equates to less drum movement, but maybe it would. I can slightly prevent drum movement by hitting a drum in a precise way, but that isn't practical for every move on the kit. Neil hits pretty evenly most of the time, but his drums don't move any less in that video.

My point is twofold: Maybe great drum sounds could be even better if the drums bounced around less. Maybe part of capturing the classic drum tracks that everyone references is that the mics were still and the drums didn't bounce around much. Ok a third point, maybe it doesn't even matter to a lot of people. Hell, it doesn't really matter that much to me, I'm just interested.

If anyone here can't deal with "maybe", then maybe this thread is too much for you.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Jax

My point is twofold: Maybe great drum sounds could be even better if the drums bounced around less. .

Many people retrofit their drum kits with RIMS mounts for the toms. This is kind of the opposite of what you are suggesting. I love my RIMS mounts. Simply put, the suspended drum has better tone than the rigid drum.

Sonically, the 'wobble' of the drum relative to a fixed microphone is negligible compared to the factors of the physical resonance of the drum shell itself. Wobble would only bother me if it was so great that the drum was physically not where I thought it would be when I hit it again.

Maybe part of capturing the classic drum tracks that everyone references is that the mics were still and the drums didn't bounce around much.

On the contrary, the further back in time you go, the lighter the hardware. The modern heavy gauge tubing, double braced drum hardware was not used on those classic tracks. Look at some old Beatles footage and Ringo's kit is bouncing around almost as in that video above.

Ok a third point, maybe it doesn't even matter to a lot of people.

I am always interested in potential improvements in sound, it is just my experience that clamping the tom really tight (onto a snare type stand for example) choked the drum a bit. Hanging a tom from a RIMS mount improved the sound.

[surfspank]

Originally Posted by Jax

Nope, just your toms.



I don't think it's beyond your capacity to understand what I already pointed out about why this idea interests me. If it doesn't interest you, that's cool.



This isn't exactly a "put up or shutup" kind of discussion and there's no need to restate what I already said about getting good drum takes.



Well, that's at least a little constructive and gives us something to talk about. I have nothing to prove, only a question that I find interesting. Do you have something to prove? Just calm down on the standoffish stuff and maybe we can get somewhere.

When you talk about a flatter kit, I'll assume you mean the toms are more parallel to the ground. I'm not sure how that equates to less drum movement, but maybe it would. I can slightly prevent drum movement by hitting a drum in a precise way, but that isn't practical for every move on the kit. Neil hits pretty evenly most of the time, but his drums don't move any less in that video.

My point is twofold: Maybe great drum sounds could be even better if the drums bounced around less. Maybe part of capturing the classic drum tracks that everyone references is that the mics were still and the drums didn't bounce around much. Ok a third point, maybe it doesn't even matter to a lot of people. Hell, it doesn't really matter that much to me, I'm just interested.

If anyone here can't deal with "maybe", then maybe this thread is too much for you.

Probably one of the biggest compliments I've received for something I do to occupy the time between my morning coffee and subsequent trip to the toilet.
If the nature and writing style of my posts aren't for you, so be it. That isn't going to stop me from posting where I please on subject material in OPEN Threads. Nor is it going to change my style of delivery which has been forged from necessity. It might be pointed and abrupt....but I never really know how much time I'm dealing with as "Mother Nature" has a tendency to interrupt my thinking with the backs of shampoo bottles and toiletry containers. You see Jax, I'm on a ticking clock here. So yeah the standoff is occurring, just not where you think it is...and it's more of a "Pinchoff".
If my line of thinking is offending your sensitivities, move on and pay it no mind. It's not my intention to do anything here but share my viewpoint on the subject.
This is pretty rare, so I feel I must also state I agree with everything Joeq has posted and feel it was well put......guess where I'm heading now.

[ckreon]

Attach the mics to the drums/hardware.

Clip mics onto the basic elements (kick, snare, toms), and get creative and figure a way to get some overheads attached to the drums and/or hardware (and probably each other, so they influence each other's motion as well).

[Jax]

Originally Posted by surfspank

This is pretty rare, so I feel I must also state I agree with everything Joeq has posted and feel it was well put......guess where I'm heading now.

I think Freud would've had something to say about that, but he too was crazy.

[Goliath|Audio]

Holding the tom perfectly still is pointless when it comes to recording. Any drummer that can play can get a consistent sound out of the drum if it is wobbling on the stand. The variations are good any way. Machine gun sampling anyone?

[thismercifulfate]

After a certain point, mounting a drum in a way that would prevent it from moving or having some 'give' when it's struck would come at the sacrifice of sound. You wouldn't be allowing the drum to resonate. If you want max. stability, get a cheap set with the tom arms protruding through the shells.

[Animal2612]

Apart from the fact they sound better the main reason I LOVE my drums suspended is they much safer and more comfortable to hit! My 2 floors r mounted on custom 3 pole tom arms (normal pearl tom arm with extra pole added) to give them that extra floating feeling. I cant go back to tom legs now, whenever I do I go in to thump the floor and almost break my wrist! Now I even put my ride on a long boom arm monted horizontally so it absorbs the vibration when I hit the bell. Something else is that vibration coming back up your arm will cause medical problems eventually! Floating drums absorb it like a thin hanging sheet absorbs the kinetic energy of a ball u throw @ it.

[Animal2612]

Hard mounted drums send kinetic energy back up the stick (and your arm/wrist) like throwing a ball at a brick wall.

[chrisso]

I've been a pretty hard hitter in my time and I've never noticed visibly moving drums.
I use RIMS on all my toms, they may dip a few millimetres when struck, but nothing more. Most of the engineers i work with mic the kit in a holistic way so that even if drums moved a lot it wouldn't be too problematic.
I do use very heavy hardware (DW) and many of my drums are quite heavy themselves. But I don't clamp any of my drums down. My snare is loosely secured on it's stand and my toms are on RIMS as I said.