CYMBALS for pop/rock country demo?

[Guitfiddle]

I am getting ready to do a really important pop/rock country demo and I want some new cymbals on my studio kit. I was demoing a bunch of cymbals yesterday and I was really liking the Sabian HHX Evolutions. You know how things sound when you mic them up, sometimes things just don't sound right depending on the material. The change of a certain cymbal/snare can make all the difference in the world on the recording. What are your preferences on this type of pop/rock country material? I'm getting tired of the Zildjian A customs, although the A Custom Mastersound Hi-Hats sounded really nice. I was liking some of the K customs, but very few of the K customs there. I have Paiste covered. I am looking at mostly Sabian right now. I have heard some Vault series that I liked, but only a very few that I heard caught my ear. I have been trying to figure out what the top session players are using, can anybody help me out? I don't want Paiste. I am Paisted out! I think it is a toss up between the Evolutions, Zildjian K's, Sabian AAX x-plosions sounded nice(they have a nice darker shimmer, and the pitch doesn't sound high like an A custom crash series.)
Concern...they are loud. The Evolution is more consistent to control with sutble finesse parts. What are your recommendations/thoughts? Thanks.

These are the ones I am looking at that caught my ear:
HI-HAT - A custom Mastersound 14"/HHX Evolution 14"/K Custom Hybrid 14"

RIDE - Sabian AAX Omni 22"(nice dark shimmery crash, defined medium mellow ping, nice bell, with nice warm shimmery wash-but not too much)
Haven't had much time to demo the ride yet, but I liked this Omni, so far.

CRASHES - Evolution 17", 18"; K Custom combination of dark and thin 17",18"
Sabian AAX X-plosion (fast crashes also in the xplosion series) 17", 18", 19" 20"( I liked the pitch and dark shimmer of these, but they are really loud) I would have to hear the x-plosions recorded in a mix, on this material to see if I like the x-plosions.

[surfspank]

Thank God! A thread that, "Paiste this and Paiste that...put a Paiste over your snare, in your coffee, they are even great on toast", isn't going to happen.
2 of the nicer rides I've played are the 20" K Custom Dry, and my ride which is a vintage Sabian 22" Leopard Ride. Of the 2, being Canadian, I'd track down a 22" Leopard. But to my ears both are awesome and have a lot of nice distinct character within them. I think you can still special order the 22" Leopards.

Crashes I would probably avoid anything with an X on it. The reason, if you are recording they have a tendency to go from bark to bite with very little effort. So if you hit a little inconsistently, which we all do, you can go from crash to CRASHHHHHHHHH. I'd look at some HH or vintage AA. Both record nice.
Hats are the same. Vintage AA or HH will do a great job.
All in all if I had one cymbal that I could force you to try, it would be the Leopard ride.
Hope this helps, have fun shopping.

[Mylesh]

Hats are the same. Vintage AA or HH will do a great job.
All in all if I had one cymbal that I could force you to try, it would be the Leopard ride.
Hope this helps, have fun shopping.[/QUOTE]

+1 for the leopard ride!

[Jax]

As I mentioned in another thread recently, the HHX Evolution crash I have lost a lot of its punch and shimmer in only a year's time, so I would be unlikely to buy one again. New, it sounded great... sort of like an A custom but with more body, richer overtones, and a more pleasant shimmer.

I know I've spoken highly of Dream cymbals recently, but for a good country/rock demo, I'd stay away from them. They have too much going on, too much character. At least my crashes do.

I'm actually going the opposite direction that you are and heading for Paiste land since hearing the Formula 602 rides and crashes. They sound almost perfect to me and very versatile.

On chrisso's recommendation, I've also been trying to track down some Armand crashes locally. Online samples have been impressive, and they sound harmonically richer and deeper to me than regular A's. Why they're hard to find locally, I'm not sure.

Mixing Paiste and Zildjian on the same set is nearly blasphemy to fanatics of either camp, but I could care less. If it sounds good, it is good. Cymbals ain't political.

[chrisso]

The thin Armand crashes are great.
As are the hats and rides. Actually the 21" ride is superb.

I have a GS friend who recently tracked drums on some country influenced music. i think the drums and cymbals sound outstanding:
Kristen Bussandri - WELCOME
The cymbals were:
14" 2002 Sound Edge Hats, 22" Dark Energy Mark II Ride, 20" Giant Beat and 18" Giant Beat.

[Guitfiddle]

Thanks guys, keep those ideas a coming!

[ivmike]

I believe that you can only get "Paiste-d Out" or Zildjian-d Out" if you are using the wrong sounding cymbals for the job. For instance, I wouldn't use a Bell Ride on country music, nor would I use heavy crash cymbals.

Paiste seems to be the big choice in Nashville today; having said that, I know of a couple Nashville session guys that use Sabian: Bart Elliot and Chad Smith (yes, he of RHCP, he plays on the Dixie Chicks stuff).

Use your ears; try to have cymbal sets that work together (multiple voices that are in harmony with each other) and fit the genre.

And a big thanks to Chris for the shout-out.

[Guitfiddle]

I picked up an A custom mastersound 14" hi-hat, very nice sounding. I already have an A custom 14" Hi-Hat, comparing to my older A custom Hats, the mastersounds have a higher, pitch and are crisper. The older A custom Hats are darker sounding with a meatier, and fuller undertones. They really compliment each other nice. I played some 2002 Paistes that I really liked also. Still going back to the Sabian stuff though...Something about that darker, shimmery sound that I like.

[DamoSyzygy]

Go for reasonably small sizes for recording... and THIN!
16 and 17 HHX Evolution crashes would work well.
For rides, youll want something with a little wash. The 21" HHX Groove ride could work very well.


The bottom line is: whatever cymbals youre buying, make sure they work relative to eachother and feel nice to play.

[jsox2409]

If you want the current nashville sound for country music go with big cymbals and big drums. I have 22" Paiste Twenty Masters collection dark crisp ride Twenty series 14" hats, 20" Full Crash, 18" and 19" Dark energy Crash MK1. The bigger the cymbal the longer it will sustain. Thicker the cymbal,deeper the pitch. Basically, everyone that I know in the ville is using big cymbals that are fairely thin.

[Guitfiddle]

I just demoed a few of the twenty series cymbals. They definitely have a different character than anything I ever heard. I would have to hear them recorded in a mix to really know for sure, if that is the way I want to go. Thanks for your comments.

[jsox2409]

If you want to hear them in a mix, listen to Darius Rucker's newest CD and Josh turners newest CD. I think there's a video of Shannon Forrest playing a similar setup with some twenty series in it on youtube.

the thing I like about Paiste is they're machine made. Which means if you like the sound of one of my cymbals you can go buy an identical cymbal and it will sound the same. Zildjian cymbals never sound the same

[ivmike]

Originally Posted by jsox2409

If you want to hear them in a mix, listen to Darius Rucker's newest CD and Josh turners newest CD. I think there's a video of Shannon Forrest playing a similar setup with some twenty series in it on youtube.

the thing I like about Paiste is they're machine made. Which means if you like the sound of one of my cymbals you can go buy an identical cymbal and it will sound the same. Zildjian cymbals never sound the same

No; Paiste are hand-made using pneumatic hammers; Zildjian are 100% machine made using computers. Both manners of manufacture can achieve great, good, fair, or poor results, depending on what you desire.

Hit Paiste: Home and Cymbals | Zildjian | Zildjian.com to see how they manufacture their products, before posting inaccuracies, please.

[jsox2409]

You're right, my bad about that. Ive never 2 zildjian cymbals sound the same though. I have heard Paistes sound the same though.

[ivmike]

Originally Posted by jsox2409

You're right, my bad about that. Ive never 2 zildjian cymbals sound the same though. I have heard Paistes sound the same though.

It's all about the manufacture; their processes (and alloys) differ; if I came across as a jerk in my previous post to you, I apologise.

There's a lot of "gold" in both companies.

[jsox2409]

Oh absolutely.. I just like the fact that if a guy is playing a cymbal i like, i can go buy it andit will sound identical as long as its a Paiste.

I guess they're more precise than zildjian. I miss the OLD Zildjians. those were killer cymbals

[Jax]

Originally Posted by ivmike

No; Paiste are hand-made using pneumatic hammers; Zildjian are 100% machine made using computers. Both manners of manufacture can achieve great, good, fair, or poor results, depending on what you desire.

Hit Paiste: Home and Cymbals | Zildjian | Zildjian.com to see how they manufacture their products, before posting inaccuracies, please.

I don't think what you posted is entirely accurate, either.

From what I can gather, Paiste makes their pro line by hand with very little machine assistance. The medium level line has a little more machining, and entry level is entirely machine made.

I can find only some reliable info about how Zildjians are made, but there's a video on youtube of hand lathing at the Zildjian factory. Zildjian also mention on their site that cut cymbals "are an ideal first cymbal choice," which implies that they produce a line of them. I'd guess the A Customs are cut from a sheet.

[Guitfiddle]

Paiste Signature 17" fast crash is a very nice sounding cymbal. I think I need some crashes that are fast and get out of the way. I have Paiste Signature 16" and 18" full crashes. I have noticed over the years that Paiste is very consistent. I have checked out other drummers cymbals with mine in the signature series and 2002 series, and they are very close, not sure about the other series. I am not sure about Sabian or Zildjian because I haven't tested them against other cymbals like I have the Paiste's.

[ivmike]

Originally Posted by Jax

I don't think what you posted is entirely accurate, either.

From what I can gather, Paiste makes their pro line by hand with very little machine assistance. The medium level line has a little more machining, and entry level is entirely machine made.

I can find only some reliable info about how Zildjians are made, but there's a video on youtube of hand lathing at the Zildjian factory. Zildjian also mention on their site that cut cymbals "are an ideal first cymbal choice," which implies that they produce a line of them. I'd guess the A Customs are cut from a sheet.

I've never heard the expression "cut cymbals" before. If you are referring to that old chestnut of "sheet vs. cast" that is used in a lot of marketing, perhaps it is time to remind our fine members here that all bronze is cast.

I was speaking of Paiste's pro lines; a circular blank, has a bell pressed into it and then is shaped by hand using a pneumatic hammer. There is lathing and some final hand-hammering to ensure that the profile and shape are correct for a given model. The cymbal is then tested against the master cymbal to ensure that it matches sonically; if it doesn't it, then it is scrapped.

Zildjian have used their "Quincy Drop Hammer" and subsequent variations to press their cymbals into shape from the blank that they've rolled from a blob of B20 bronze and then computer hammering is done to the cymbal. There may be hand-lathing on some lines.

[surfspank]

Originally Posted by surfspank

Thank God! A thread that, "Paiste this and Paiste that...put a Paiste over your snare, in your coffee, they are even great on toast", isn't going to happen.

I stand corrected.

[jsox2409]

No offense, but if you don't like Paiste you need your head checked. Most people who talk bad about Paiste can't afford them or has never used them

[ivmike]

Originally Posted by jsox2409

No offense, but if you don't like Paiste you need your head checked. Most people who talk bad about Paiste can't afford them or has never used them

And to be fair to other companies, there are so many great sounding cymbals out there....we are in the golden age of great bronze discs.

[surfspank]

Originally Posted by jsox2409

No offense, but if you don't like Paiste you need your head checked. Most people who talk bad about Paiste can't afford them or has never used them

None taken. I'm not here to bad mouth gear, just people. I'm kind of trying to stick to what the OP wanted to talk about. Options besides the mighty Paiste, of which there are many. Some of which are cymbals that my ears enjoy more tonally, so why narrow the discussion?
I've been a Drummer for a long time. I has used, can afford, and have always been of the opinion that my head needs to be checked. So what do you know besides the income level and psychiatric state of those that prefer other flavours besides what you like? Have you ever stooped down socially and played a specific cymbal that you loved without the name Paiste on it? Most of us have.

PS I agree with you on the old Zildy's, still play them even though they can be found pretty cheaply. My ears can't see the price tag.

[Guitfiddle]

Thanks guys for your help...Demoing of more cymbals begins some time next week!

[DamoSyzygy]

Originally Posted by jsox2409

If you want the current nashville sound for country music go with big cymbals and big drums. I have 22" Paiste Twenty Masters collection dark crisp ride Twenty series 14" hats, 20" Full Crash, 18" and 19" Dark energy Crash MK1. The bigger the cymbal the longer it will sustain. Thicker the cymbal,deeper the pitch. Basically, everyone that I know in the ville is using big cymbals that are fairely thin.

Just a correction j.
Thicker cymbals will generally sound HIGHER pitched than thinner ones.

[MikeCM]

If you want a set of zildjians that sound the same, I encourage you to take a look at the Armand series. Or the K's. Ive noticed that some of the 20" A custom crashes can have a variation of tone but its all still in the same voice for that cymbal.

As for having my head checked about not liking paiste cymbals, and not being able to afford them, and blah blah blah... I just don't like how they sound. I much prefer ANY zildjian series to paiste cymbals. It's personal preference, I'm also buying top end Zildjians so money is obviously not a factor.

I would go with the Armand series (thinner the better as stated earlier), the 21" Armand Ride, 21" Sweet Ride, a 22" or 20" Zildjian K custom dark ride cymbal (great for ping, bell, or crash), and for pocket crashes, I'd go with any of the K Custom Dark crashes or the Armand ones.

I've also been very impressed with the Artisan series that sabian offers.

[Guitfiddle]

Thanks guys...still really liking the Sabian AAX Xplosion series fast and full, 17, 18, 19, 20 crashes. They just sound right to my ear. I heard a recent ville demo with the 18" x-plosions, I liked what I heard. I don't like all of these, depending on the size the fast crashes in some, the full in others. Still checking them out.

[MillM]

I have a lot of cymbals for people to use, but the cymbals I always get compliments on are always the Sabians! People always start with the Z and P stuff, but when they try out the S they freak out!

14" AAX-celerator hats; Very clean and crisp sticking. Projecting but not obtrusive tonality.

18" AAXplosion crash; Nice all round crash, fairly bright and loud. Can be played as a light ride with the correct stick.

20" HHX Evolution Ride; Perfect balance of stick and wash, fairly complex and smokey sound under a soft ping. Nice cutting bell and absolutely crushable for a massive wall of sound at the flick of the wrist.

I will see if I can put up a demo with these cymbals in a few days time!

[Guitfiddle]

MillM I have a lot of cymbals for people to use, but the cymbals I always get compliments on are always the Sabians! People always start with the Z and P stuff, but when they try out the S they freak out!

14" AAX-celerator hats; Very clean and crisp sticking. Projecting but not obtrusive tonality.

18" AAXplosion crash; Nice all round crash, fairly bright and loud. Can be played as a light ride with the correct stick.

20" HHX Evolution Ride; Perfect balance of stick and wash, fairly complex and smokey sound under a soft ping. Nice cutting bell and absolutely crushable for a massive wall of sound at the flick of the wrist.

I will see if I can put up a demo with these cymbals in a few days time!

That would be great, thank you. I have a drummer friend that is playing Bospherus, the hats sound really nice, not sure what series they are, but they have a nice crisp sound that just sounds right. In fact, they sound really close to the 2002 sound edge, but not as loud.

I have a GS friend who recently tracked drums on some country influenced music. i think the drums and cymbals sound outstanding:
Kristen Bussandri - WELCOME
The cymbals were:
14" 2002 Sound Edge Hats, 22" Dark Energy Mark II Ride, 20" Giant Beat and 18" Giant Beat.
__________________
Chris Whitten

Thanks Chris, sounds nice.

[staylor200]

I have a 16" Sabian AAX explosion crash and it's great. Also just picked up an 18" AAX Studio Crash. For pop/rock stuff they are do an AWESOME job. They're also just plain amazing cymbals for the money. I picked up the 18" AAX Studio for $140.