crashes that lost 'tone'

[Jax]

I've had two crashes that each lost most of their body, depth, volume and shimmer over time. There are no cracks, dents, keyholes, flea bites or any other visible problems, but they sound like less than half the crashes they used to be. One is about 15 years old and has been often played hard, while the other is less than a year old and is already sounding a bit lifeless.

I wouldn't attribute their sonic degradation to taking a pounding. I have other, older cymbals that still sound good and have been played in much the same way. One crash was bought at the same time as the deader sounding one, but it still sounds decent. That one is even the same model and brand...

Have you guys had this happen to your cymbals? I guess metal fatigue and environmental factors could strip a crash of its glory before it would seem to be the time, but I'm a little baffled by the newer crash taking dive already.

Anyway, any recommendations for newer or vintage replacement 18" and 17" 'rock' crashes would be cool. I'm leaning towards 70's Zildjian that don't sound like modern fast crashes. The fast crash trend I find suspect in terms of cymbal longevity. How are the new regular Avedis? I'll be hitting the drum stores.

[chrisso]

Yes, I've heard this in cymbals of my own, and I do put it down to wear and tear.

70's A Zildjian's are great.
The new A's are too heavy and loud for recording IMO.
I have some new 'thin' Armand's that sound great in the studio though, and give that vintage sound. I would recommend those, but stick with the thinner style, not the medium.

[thismercifulfate]

I've never experienced that with any cymbals. I have come across plenty of fresh out of the factory 'duds' (especially Zildjians), but any cymbals I had bought new only sound better with time. The bronze on new cymbals hasn't 'settled' yet, and with some playing (cymbal swells with mallets help) they break in. Over months and years, patina can mellow out the the tone of a cymbal. If you regularly clean your cymbals it won't be the case of course. But all my pies seem to only sound sweeter with age.

[Gamelan]

What is the make and model of the cymbals? It might be some kind of stress fracture that can't easily be seen. But, usually a good quality cymbal will get better until it gives out entirely. Even a cracked cymbal will often sound good until it starts to buzz. For instance, I have an old K splash that's been bent and whacked and punished to no end, even has a crack near the hole, but it just sounds better and better. I've had cymbals with huge bites taken out of them that still sound good. Having a cymbal go "dead" for no reason is rare. Two in the same set suggests something is not quite right.

[Jax]

One is a Sabian HHX Evolution, the other is a Zildjian 17" A Custom projection crash. Both are quality cymbals but the Sabian went out well before it should've.

[chrisso]

I had a couple of 90's K Zildjian's lose some of their sparkle, but this was after being whacked to death, day after day, on two lengthy world tours. Other cymbals in that batch have survived perfectly well. So I think it's just one of those things. It's also not super obvious, the two cymbals just have a little less sparkle and a little less sustain than the others in the set.

[digibird]

Try 17" & 18" Paiste 2002 crashes (or any size, really). You can order them thru your local shop without hearing them 1st - they are that consistent & that good. I have 16-17-18-19-20" 2002 crashes. Yeah, I kinda like 'em.

You can also go to the Paiste website & hear all of their cymbals as .wav or .mp3.

[TimBatkin]

I have experienced this - and sadly, usually before the cymbal cracks.

In the old days of rail transport they used to have wheel tappers - who could hear a fault in a wheel ahead of it cracking by tapping it with hammers. I guess the same thing applies.

[joeq]

I can't think of a cymbal that I have owned that this happened to. My experience is more like Gamelan's - cymbals generally improve with age until they crack or even well after they crack.

I know the patina of aging will roll off some high frequencies, but I doubt this could be causing Jax's problems. If so a cleaning would fix it. tutt

It is interesting that the issue seems to be linked mostly to crashes. Maybe its somehow connected to the cymbal being repeatedly hit on the edge, rather than mostly on the top?

[Jax]

Originally Posted by joeq

It is interesting that the issue seems to be linked mostly to crashes. Maybe its somehow connected to the cymbal being repeatedly hit on the edge, rather than mostly on the top?

Don't think so. My crash swipes are never directly on the edge. The only time I play the edge is with the sticks hanging toward the floor for a ping effect, but that's a light tap.

Things took a turn for the better with one of the crashes. The A custom had been put into retirement a long time ago until a few days ago when I set it up again. And guess what? It sounded better than it did when I hung up its jersey!

I'll theorize that some kind of metal fatigue had taken place, and the cymbal needed a good stretch of time to 'rest'. I would've thought it unlikely to make any sort of recovery, but there it is. I distinctly remember it sounding uneven, with clashing, harsh overtones and less body than it has now. I didn't expect this!

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by joeq

It is interesting that the issue seems to be linked mostly to crashes.

Crashes are simply smaller and thinner than rides.

[Slipperman]

I've had it happen Jax.

Right before something APPEARS, unfortunately.

Just went through this with the top hat on a pair of Sabian HH hats I've had since the first year the line was sold.

Finally found a TINY groove crack... and I mean TINY.

Sucks.

Kills me how you can actually HEAR something like that.

Anyhoo.

On a happier note.

The 18" flat ride I got at the same time still sounds AMAZING.

What a BIZARRE, and great cymbal.

Anybody here use flat rides?

The MAIN reason I switched to using Paiste stuff 25 years ago was the(back then) unending cycle of break/replace you get into if yer playing heavy music in live performance situations night after night.

They certainly didn't seem to break any less often than other brands(maybe more), but you could get something that sounded/felt almost identical to the casualty at any music store which carried the line.

I'm STILL breaking far too many cymbals for an old guy.

Especially Chinas.

The only ones I don't destroy are the ones I don't particularly LIKE how they sound.

SM.

[CompEq]

Over this time (15 years) has a patina developed on the cymbals? That could cause a lessening of high frerquencies.

edit: I see that thismercifulfate and joeq have already addressed this.

[PaulOcchialini]

I have a theory, it may be "work process hardening". It's like when you take a coat hanger and bend it back a forth to the point that it breaks. Most people think it's because your making it soft. In reality your actually work hardening the coat hanger to the point that it snaps.

If people are noticing a change in tone and shortly after the cymbal breaks, it may be that the metal has hardened, in manufacturing you can have metal annealed to make it softer again. Annealing is a process that brings the metal to a very high temperature and then allowed to cool at a very slow rate. Different alloys require different temperatures and I have no way of knowing if this process will have a further negative impact of the tone of the cymbals.

I'd say if someone was brave enough to try this, I would look up a shop that deals with heat treating metals.

Just a thought and good luck

[Jax]

Originally Posted by PaulOcchialini

If people are noticing a change in tone and shortly after the cymbal breaks, it may be that the metal has hardened, in manufacturing you can have metal annealed to make it softer again.

Based on what I've seen, I wouldn't doubt your theory, but I don't understand why or how the one cymbal seems to have healed itself. The theory makes sense given that cymbals are taking a beating over an extended period of time, and basically being re-hammered to the point of breaking as the metal molecules become more and more brittle and hardened.

That said, neither of the crashes have broken, nor do they have any visible fracture of any kind. The one is back up on my set and doing an admirable job once again, but I'm letting the other one recuperate, if that's even possible.

[chrisso]

My couple of 'lost tone' crashes haven't cracked either.
I think it's just metal fatigue.

[ivmike]

Originally Posted by Slipperman

I've had it happen Jax.

Right before something APPEARS, unfortunately.

Just went through this with the top hat on a pair of Sabian HH hats I've had since the first year the line was sold.

Finally found a TINY groove crack... and I mean TINY.

Sucks.

Kills me how you can actually HEAR something like that.

Anyhoo.

On a happier note.

The 18" flat ride I got at the same time still sounds AMAZING.

What a BIZARRE, and great cymbal.

Anybody here use flat rides?

The MAIN reason I switched to using Paiste stuff 25 years ago was the(back then) unending cycle of break/replace you get into if yer playing heavy music in live performance situations night after night.

They certainly didn't seem to break any less often than other brands(maybe more), but you could get something that sounded/felt almost identical to the casualty at any music store which carried the line.

I'm STILL breaking far too many cymbals for an old guy.

Especially Chinas.

The only ones I don't destroy are the ones I don't particularly LIKE how they sound.

SM.

Slippermensch;

I have a 602 Flat Ride that I occasionally use in the studio. You can listen to it here and for the record, the Aardvark was around in the studio when I tracked this....

As for china types, if you break them frequently, try the Paiste Novo style china type; it sounds great and you don't have to mount it upside-down, so it can swing freely.

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by Jax

I've had two crashes that each lost most of their body, depth, volume and shimmer over time. There are no cracks, dents, keyholes, flea bites or any other visible problems, but they sound like less than half the crashes they used to be. One is about 15 years old and has been often played hard, while the other is less than a year old and is already sounding a bit lifeless.

I wouldn't attribute their sonic degradation to taking a pounding. I have other, older cymbals that still sound good and have been played in much the same way. One crash was bought at the same time as the deader sounding one, but it still sounds decent. That one is even the same model and brand...

Have you guys had this happen to your cymbals? I guess metal fatigue and environmental factors could strip a crash of its glory before it would seem to be the time, but I'm a little baffled by the newer crash taking dive already.

Anyway, any recommendations for newer or vintage replacement 18" and 17" 'rock' crashes would be cool. I'm leaning towards 70's Zildjian that don't sound like modern fast crashes. The fast crash trend I find suspect in terms of cymbal longevity. How are the new regular Avedis? I'll be hitting the drum stores.

Long time Paiste Signature user here. I have, on my typical set-up, an 18" fast crash and 17 and 18" full crashes. Once in a while once of them cracks and then I buy a new one. When they're brand new, they just seem to not gell with the rest of the cymbals (hi-hat, ride, china all Signature series), but after a couple of weeks they start to "sit".

After some more time (some months to perhaps two year?) everything falls into place and they sound exactly the way I want them to.

Now, the big question is: is something physically changing with the cymbals or is it my brain (highly accustomed to the FORMER cymbal sound at exactly that position) that needs to adjust...

I tend the think it's also a little of the former (actual physics happening), but I could easily be fooled here.

Greetings,
Dirk

[DamoSyzygy]

I would make a guess that it may be your ears!

Cymbals don't generally LOSE tone. If anything, the sound should get richer over time with dirt, oxidation and (if you clean your cymbals regularly) as lathe lines start to lose their profile and wear down.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by DamoSyzygy

I would make a guess that it may be your ears!

then all of his cymbals would be 'losing their tone' at the same rate, which I don't think is the complaint

[DamoSyzygy]

Originally Posted by joeq

then all of his cymbals would be 'losing their tone' at the same rate, which I don't think is the complaint

Not necessarily.
Certain frequencies may be accentuated in certian models of cymbal, which makes it more noticable when they are removed.

[ArnieInTheSky]

Couple lil things I know about cymbals:

Metal is constantly releasing nickel. Sabian claims that cymbals will age due to this process but 80% of it's aging is done by the time you purchase your cymbal from a retailer. Mayhaps your hand made cymbal was one that had it's 20% of maturing to do and add lots of experience in that time?

The other is that the HHX Evolution is a very, VERY thin cymbal and rock usage will more than likely cause excessive stress. The combination of these two variables could have altered your cymbal so much so that it now sounds completely different and undesirable to you.

I would recommend AAX X-Plosions for rock usage if you liked the initial tone of your Evolution. Its the same profile, lathing and finishing with a bit more weight to put up with the abuse and no hand hammering to add stress. You'll have a little less darkness and complexity but in rock, you won't hear that much of that over the rest of the band. I'd maybe bump your size up an inch to get that darker tone you like.

Bummer bout your cymbal in any case :(

[Jax]

Originally Posted by ArnieInTheSky

I would recommend AAX X-Plosions for rock usage if you liked the initial tone of your Evolution. Its the same profile, lathing and finishing with a bit more weight to put up with the abuse and no hand hammering to add stress. You'll have a little less darkness and complexity but in rock, you won't hear that much of that over the rest of the band. I'd maybe bump your size up an inch to get that darker tone you like.

The AAX-plosions and HHX-plosions are cool. I like them enough that I got a very similar Dream cymbal - a Dream Bliss 19" Crash/Ride. It equalled the AAX in volume and overall tone. The Bliss actually has more character and complexity, and it was about 1/3rd the price of the Sabian. It is one of my favorite cymbals. The only drawback is that sometimes I need a crash that sounds a little more generic and "safe," for lack of a better word. A Customs immediately come to mind. The Dream has tons of character.

[Nikbeat]

Hi I had the exact same problem with my 18" HHX evolution crash. Thay do sound amazing when they are brand new but the tone and highend shimmer dispeared after 2 tours mind you it was very hard hitting stuff but still...Now I got the HHX Xplosion instead and so far it has lasted many tours and many studio sessions.