Thin Heads Sound Better

[JohnChips]

Originally Posted by Slap Back

Everytime I put on thick drumheads.. I realize how great the thin ones sound. Just sayin...

Thick heads feel better tho'.

Thats what she said.

[Gamelan]

Sound better than what and for what purpose? Depends on the sound you are going for. Thick or thin are neither better nor worse, just different.

Thick = longer sustain/decay, usually better pitch centering and focus, greater durability so the head will hopefully sound the same after the 100th hit as it does after the 1st.

Thin = shorter sustain/decay, brighter harmonics, a little harder to tune and balance, greater elasticity - meaning the head will be toast a little sooner and dent easily.

And let's not confuse thick with 2-ply, they are totally different animals. If thin heads were all that, the stock heads on those luan k-mart kits would be all the rage.

[Philip S Bova]

The thicker the head the more you hear of the head versus the actual drum...more of a "plastic" sound especially on toms and bass drums. I prefer ambassadors all around even on kick. Mind you I try not to be a really hitter these days.

[Philip S Bova]

Originally Posted by Gamelan

And let's not confuse thick with 2-ply, they are totally different animals. If thin heads were all that, the stock heads on those luan k-mart kits would be all the rage.

but to be fair those single ply heads that come with starter kits are not quality single ply heads. They suck.

[valjean24601]

Thin heads (single ply such as Remo ambassadors) tend to sound their best when used on drums that have thinner shells. I have a Pearl Masterworks kit with 4 ply shells on all the toms and the thin heads work amazing well with them. However when I put 2 ply heads on the kit it starts to choke the sound a little bit more.

Cheers, Mark.

[Gamelan]

Originally Posted by Philip S Bova

but to be fair those single ply heads that come with starter kits are not quality single ply heads. They suck.

Of course, but they're really thin! (it was a joking attempt to illustrate a point)

Note that ambassador weight is the thickest single ply head you can get. A 2 ply head is not a thicker head, it's two thin heads stuck together (same with pinstripes). Naturally, friction between the 2 layers reduces resonance.

[Pawel]

Originally Posted by Gamelan

Note that ambassador weight is the thickest single ply head you can get.

Actually REMO Ambassador X and EVANS G Plus are, they're 12-mil single ply, while classic Ambassador And G1 are 10-mil.
(BTW I'd avoid the Coated G Plus, great focused sound but no attack at all.)

[Gamelan]

Ah yes, the X's are indeed 12 mil.

Thanks for the correction, but do consider softening the 'tude a bit.

[Pawel]

Sorry, didn't mean to be rude

It's hard to correct someone and not look like an a-hole!

[valjean24601]

Originally Posted by Gamelan

Ah yes, the X's are indeed 12 mil.

Thanks for the correction, but do consider softening the 'tude a bit.

Just because someone points out an error you've made and corrects you doesn't mean they've got a bad attitude! If anything he then tried to assist you by making a suggestion about another head.

[kats]

No kidding, how could the "tude" be any softer?

[Slap Back]

Originally Posted by Gamelan

Sound better than what and for what purpose? Depends on the sound you are going for. Thick or thin are neither better nor worse, just different.

Thick = longer sustain/decay, usually better pitch centering and focus, greater durability so the head will hopefully sound the same after the 100th hit as it does after the 1st.

Thin = shorter sustain/decay, brighter harmonics, a little harder to tune and balance, greater elasticity - meaning the head will be toast a little sooner and dent easily.

And let's not confuse thick with 2-ply, they are totally different animals. If thin heads were all that, the stock heads on those luan k-mart kits would be all the rage.

No confusion

Thin heads = G1's ambassadors, etc
Thick heads = G2's Pinstripes, etc

From any practical perspective, # of plies is an irrelevant point.

Thin heads let drums sing more in every way. Thick heads interefere with drums sounding good.

[biggator6]

Originally Posted by Slap Back

No confusion

Thin heads = G1's ambassadors, etc
Thick heads = G2's Pinstripes, etc

From any practical perspective, # of plies is an irrelevant point.

Thin heads let drums sing more in every way. Thick heads interefere with drums sounding good.

Well - I'm going to politely disagree. It depends on the drum.. some work better than others with thinner or thicker head. It also depends on the sound you're going for - thin isn't always that sound.

For a good example - lots of people consider the Bonham sound as the holy grail of rock drums... he ran coated Emperors (2-ply) and his drums sang quite well.

[Slap Back]

Originally Posted by biggator6

Well - I'm going to politely disagree. It depends on the drum.. some work better than others with thinner or thicker head. It also depends on the sound you're going for - thin isn't always that sound.

For a good example - lots of people consider the Bonham sound as the holy grail of rock drums... he ran coated Emperors (2-ply) and his drums sang quite well.

Point well taken-- for me, it seems like every time I try some thicker heads, I just end up with less of everything and I'm running back to Ambassadors in no time. I'd be interested to know your opinion about situations when thick is definitely the sound and why-- where an ambassador just wouldn't do and why

What would be an example of a drum that sounds better with a thicker head...same with a thinner head? What sort of qualites about these different drums make them more suited to thicker or thinner heads?

That is an excellent point about Bonahm. I do wonder though if ambassadors would have sounded even better on his kit and also how much durability played a factor in his choice of Emperors over Ambassadors.

Several other drummers that I've spoken with over the years who play Emperors feel that Ambassadors sound better, but just don't last long enough.

[Slap Back]

Originally Posted by Philip S Bova

The thicker the head the more you hear of the head versus the actual drum...more of a "plastic" sound especially on toms and bass drums. I prefer ambassadors all around even on kick. Mind you I try not to be a really hitter these days.

Thats an interesting way to look at it. I really want to put an ambassador on my Yamaha Recording Custom kick. I had an Emad without the dampening ring on it and that was great. Then I put my Powerstroke 3 back on... again I felt like that was a step back with those outer dampening plies on the outer edge of the PS3.

[Pawel]

I have a '94 Cherry Recording Custom and a 2003 Matte Sedona Red Oak Custom: the first sounds better with Emperors, the second with Ambassadors. For "better" I mean fuller and richer sound, more sustain, more pleasant to the ear, drum singing better. Ambassadors on the Recording Custom are a bit dead, while Emperors on the Oak choke them (always coated heads on batter, clear Ambassadors as resonants and same tuning).
I also find that Emperors ring more than Ambassadors, which have slightly more bass (due to single-ply) and a more focused sound, while I always read that it's supposed to be the other way around.
Ambassadors can be played softer with great results and tone, while Emperors ask to be played harder to sound equally good (maybe due to the dampening effect of the friction between the two plies). I think that number of plies really affects the sound.

I tried lots of different heads and combinations and found what is best for my drums. I think that Yamaha sells RC with Clear Pinstripes and Oaks with Clear Ambassadors for a reason

[biggator6]

Originally Posted by Slap Back

Point well taken-- for me, it seems like every time I try some thicker heads, I just end up with less of everything and I'm running back to Ambassadors in no time. I'd be interested to know your opinion about situations when thick is definitely the sound and why-- where an ambassador just wouldn't do and why

What would be an example of a drum that sounds better with a thicker head...same with a thinner head? What sort of qualites about these different drums make them more suited to thicker or thinner heads?

That is an excellent point about Bonahm. I do wonder though if ambassadors would have sounded even better on his kit and also how much durability played a factor in his choice of Emperors over Ambassadors.

Several other drummers that I've spoken with over the years who play Emperors feel that Ambassadors sound better, but just don't last long enough.

Well.. I'll speak to my two kits (and possibly snares).

My vintage Rogers kit.. Ambassadors. That's just the 'classic' sound. It works.

My modern kit (Premier Signia) is very resonant.. thin shells, sharp bearing edges. I ran it with Ambassadors - and every tom required muffling to be bearable. Then I switched the floors to Emperors, they were much better. When it came time to replace heads - I tried a few different ones and ended up with Evans clear G2s.. it's exactly the sound I was looking for - no muffling needed. On that kit, I wanted a more 'modern' sound.. very focused and heavy on the attack. My ideal tom sound for this kit would be 'Lateralus' by Tool - the G2s get me in the ballpark.

[bom619]

Most of the time, drummers will choose heads that sound good from the playing position with no regard to the low end proximity effect of close mics or the musical balance of the shells vs cymbals in the room. Every small advantage you can achieve to fight cymbal bleed and proximity effect will make the end result better. Thinner and brighter heads make a significant difference!

If you have bent hoops or bent drums (vistalite's for instance) thicker heads will make tuning easier but at the cost of volume & tone. I haven't found many other exceptions other than stylistic variations to accommodate music genres.

[lunchbox]

Vintage Ambassador Coated on Top and
Ambassador Coated on Bottom. Super fat vintage or round resonate tones. For toms at least. Anything goes for kick and snare, whatever fits the song!

[AudioWonderland]

Originally Posted by Gamelan

If thin heads were all that, the stock heads on those luan k-mart kits would be all the rage.

Lets also not confuse thin with junk..

[Animal2612]

I find it interesting that no one has mentioned aquairian. I play a masters mmx with uncoated or coated ec2's on the toms, g1 coated only on snare, and aquairian super kick 2 on kick. Tried emad, powerstroke and just about everything else and nothing comes close to the superkick 2. Aquairian suck everywhere else though.