"Glassy" Cymbals ?

[Btbam0832]

I know, i know.. As a drummer the cymbal choice obviously dramatically effects the sound you get. Im talking about techniques - mic-ing, eq, compression, whatever you have successfully done to get that brilliant, paper-thin, high quality cymbal sound.

Ive come close but i always end up putting too much high shelf sounding stuff and making it sound "grainy" rather than "smooth".

Thanks!

[CB_Photo]

High pass filter to kill the kick and lower tom frequencies. If you set the roll-off frequency too high, the cymbals will sound thin and cheap. Start with a frequency of 200Hz and see where it takes you.

Compression to push the cymbals in front of the kit.

Who producers/managers Kit Lambert and Chris Stamp often compressed the crap out of Keith Moon’s drums until lows and highs were pulverized into a raging fireball of percussive energy. The massive compression did keep the cymbals from swallowing up Pete’s guitars, John’s midrange-heavy bass, and Roger’s vocals. If you’re brave enough to try this hostile takeover, dial in a 10:1 ratio at a threshold of –10dB. (quoted from here).

[Jax]

Since you know it's really about cymbal choice, then you know that trying to mix in a glassy sound after the fact is putting the cart before the horse. If you're usually going for glassy, get some Paiste 2002's.

[Dr. Mordo]

Originally Posted by Jax

Since you know it's really about cymbal choice, then you know that trying to mix in a glassy sound after the fact is putting the cart before the horse. If you're usually going for glassy, get some Paiste 2002's.

Yeah, I tend to think of the glassy sound as the sound of pressed european cymbals. So try Meinl or Paiste, and I personally tend toward their thinner cymbals.

In terms of mixing, hpf way up at 6-7k. I wouldn't boost above 10k, just cut everything below 6-7k.

[soundsundergroun]

akg 451

[biggator6]

When I think 'glassy' - I think 'Paiste 2002'. They sound like glass shattering to me - a totally different sound than turkish cymbals.. and when you want that sound - THAT's it.

I really want to put together a set of 2002s - it's 180o different than my typical cymbals (Sabian HH and old Zildjians).. one of these days.

[surfspank]

Originally Posted by biggator6

When I think 'glassy' - I think 'Paiste 2002'. They sound like glass shattering to me - a totally different sound than turkish cymbals.. and when you want that sound - THAT's it.

I really want to put together a set of 2002s - it's 180o different than my typical cymbals (Sabian HH and old Zildjians).. one of these days.

+1
We've got the same taste in glass. I just tracked down an old HH unlathed Ride that has about 200 different voices in it, one of which is a nice smooth glassy wash. I like some versatility with the sound in relation to how I strike. You're kidding about the set of 2002's right?

[Slipperman]

I agree on the Paiste kit like 2002, Sound Creation and Signature for "glassy" sounds. Always got that "old school telephone ringing" overtone that HANGS in the air, so to speak.

The Meinl kit not so much. It's has the 'overtone' WITHOUT the 'tone' in most of the ones I've tried. I do actually own and use a few of them. Hysterically, I was working at a drum shop in 1985 when the line hit the USA for the first time and I owned almost every single cymbal they made at one point.

The lines back then were called: Volcanic Rock, HiTech, Rock Velvet, and Double Dragon. The Double Dragon line was very soft-alloy Chinese sounding stuff in standard cymbal forms. They had a 16" Double Dragon that I have NEVER been able to find anything remotely as effective in, as a fast pattern china cymbal since.

I search ebay for one used at LEAST once a month.

Ya know.

I think I'm gonna start hanging here in "drums" with you guys if you'll have me.

About the only place in this forum that isn't over-run by marauding text zombies.

Anyhoo.

As an AE: I think that getting a really good "glassy" cymbal track is a heck of a lot more complicated than a lotta people suspect/admit.

It's also MASSIVELY related to CONTEXT in the aggregate mix(ain't it always?).

I'm working right now, gotta be fairly brief, but man...

What a can of WORMS. And one I have(as a drummer and mix AE) struggled WILDLY with for 3 decades.

I will tell ya this...

And NOBODY may wanna hear it(I don't blame ya OR take it personally) but...

HITTING 2" Analog for drums is a MASSIVE advantage in managing overheads downstream in mix for ROCK MUSIC, in the fabric of my experience.

Ain't always something you CAN do, for all the obvious reasons.

Ain't saying it's something ya GOTTA do to get a good "glassy" overheads sound either.

BUT...

For ME...

The "statistical yield" of hitting tape on INPUT vs. any kinda "digital collection PLUS downstream tom-foolery(tape ems/eqs/comps/satplugs/whatever) is still WAY greater on overheads AS MUCH or MORE than close-miced drums, which is where a lotta guys notice a difference.

I'm JUST SAYIN.

I don't CARE.

I don't WANT it to be true.

I don't NEED it to be true.

In almost EVERY respect, I decidedly wish it WAS NOT true. It makes for WAAAAYYYYYYY more work in so many ways UNTIL you get in mix...

But, IN MIX... I keep coming back to it.

God help me/kill me.

I remember when I did my first all digital recordings in the late 80's, thinking a "veil had been lifted" from the overheads, and being THRILLED with it. Also the whole low/no noise-floor thing which was LOVED. Ahh me. I was doing a VERY HEAVY metal record(for the standards of that time) and the band HATED it. HATED it. It was my second record with them and they complained BITTERLY throughout that everything sounded SMALLER than the first one. I COULDN'T HEAR IT. It just sounded so much CLEARER to me... I thought they were on crack.

A quarter of a century and literally WAY over a million dollars of technology bought and sold later... later I'm still fighting the SAME battles.

I just wait for every night when I get to go play my drums for 2 hrs. from 1-3am. and forget about audio. It's like going to church. It's that uplifting and spiritual at this juncture. It's insane. I've been learning to really control all the standard rudiments with my feet. Everything. All the accepted rules and regulations of the hands. Everything from the flam tap to the Swiss Army Triplet. You name it. Hilarious! Reliving all the EXACT same battles on feet that you went through with the hands 2-3 decades ago.

OK. Rambling. Again.

Gotta flee.

Workee/Bedlam.

SM.

[lord_bunny]

i agree, it's the cymbals, and hopefully a good room to let them breath and overheads that aren't to close.

My favourite right now: Paiste sound formula (signature now i guess)

still sound glassy even with R84's. I try and get three or four feet above the kit. my place has 10 ft high ceilings.

[surfspank]

Originally Posted by Slipperman

I just wait for every night when I get to go play my drums for 2 hrs. from 1-3am. and forget about audio. It's like going to church. It's that uplifting and spiritual at this juncture. It's insane. I've been learning to really control all the standard rudiments with my feet. Everything. All the accepted rules and regulations of the hands. Everything from the flam tap to the Swiss Army Triplet. You name it. Hilarious! Reliving all the EXACT same battles on feet that you went through with the hands 2-3 decades ago.

OK. Rambling. Again.

Gotta flee.

Workee/Bedlam.

SM.

It is Church in these parts Brother.

Slipperman, glad you decided to hang here and share some of your knowledge. What took you so long?

I feel your pain with the rudiments. Went through that a couple of years ago. I was in the hospital awaiting the delivery of our Daughter. The nurse asked me if I was nervous and needed to go for a walk because I was fidgeting so much with my feet. I replied, "No, I'm just practicing rudiments to pass the time." She obviously wasn't a Drummer....or I sucked that day.

[Liquid360]

This thread is familiar to me. I'm not a drummer, but my older brother is. I remember when he got his first his first Paiste 2002 (16' I believe) for Christmas in the 80's, and it sounded just like the "glassy" cymbal samples in most drum machines. "PSSsssshhhhhh...."

[NEWTON IN ORBIT]

Originally Posted by Slipperman

I think I'm gonna start hanging here in "drums" with you guys if you'll have me.

About the only place in this forum that isn't over-run by marauding text zombies.

Anyhoo.


SM.

[tl32]

I agree that the 2002's sound like glass, but not glassy how the op describes the sound he wants. Paper thin, smooth--.

Paste 2002's are B8 cymbals, meaning they have 8% bronze, where as traditionally made cymbals have 20% bronze.

I would say that B8 cymbals are not smooth and paper thin sounding. They are pinging, and cutting with more ring. I would describe them as rough and heavy sounding.

[Slipperman]

Originally Posted by tl32

I agree that the 2002's sound like glass, but not glassy how the op describes the sound he wants. Paper thin, smooth--.

Paste 2002's are B8 cymbals, meaning they have 8% bronze, where as traditionally made cymbals have 20% bronze.

I would say that B8 cymbals are not smooth and paper thin sounding. They are pinging, and cutting with more ring. I would describe them as rough and heavy sounding.

Fair enough.

What WOULD you describe as what the OP is asking for?

Best regards,

Slippy

[tl32]

Originally Posted by Slipperman

Fair enough.

What WOULD you describe as what the OP is asking for?

Best regards,

Slippy

I don't know? It gets a little confusing sometimes describing sounds with words. My first thought was that my glassiest sounding cymbal is an Sabian AA extra thin 15". But I do agree that paste 2002's are more literally glassy sounding. I give up. It's always good to recommend people try the 2002's thought because they have a unique sound you might want to try, and I agree glassy is a good way to describe them.

It's hard to say what the cymbals the OP would like. I'm thinking not something trashy like a really thin hand hammered cymbal would be, but maybes something more like Avedis custom? Try the 2002's though. I think people sometimes just can't accurately describe, or may not even know the sound of the cymbals they want until they have used them, and even then maybe not until they have played them to music.

My K high hats kind of sound like breaking glass, but I don't know about sounding paper thin, or sounding smooth.

Sometimes paper thin=trashy sounding not smooth sounding, but I don't really know the official terminology. I know 2002's cut and have a more ringing metalic sound. Thinner cymbals have more wash and sound more dry, less sustain. If your want a ride for metal, get a thicker ride, for jazz get a thinner ride. For rock get a medium ride.

Really it depends on the music and even the key the music is in which makes the biggest difference. Sometimes some cymbals you though sounded bad sound good for different things. General rule to follow is that heavy for heavy music, ultra light for jazz. Whatever you like or think sounds good in between, or even break a rule, so what.

Heavy cymbals are louder, and cut through more, thin cymbals wash out and get lost in a heavy mix. Hand hammered cymbals tend to be dryer and maybe I would say less smooth per say, but with more complex overtones which can only be appreciated if they're not drowned out.

From my fairly limited experience I would say try out some avedis customs, some Sabian AA's.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by tl32

I would say try out some avedis customs, some Sabian AA's.

Maybe, but I would never recommend those for studio use.
One of the biggest issues for recording drummers is controlling loud cymbals.
Avedis A's and Sabian AA's are both on the loud, rocky side.
Paiste have a reputation for having a 'glassy' sound.
Yes, you're right, it's totally subjective, but glass is transparent, clean, shiny and clear..... so on a subjective level you don't want something with dark overtones or a mid range honk.
I guess the ultimate cymbal for the glass description for me would be the Paiste 602. I haven't played 2002's for years, but I'm prepared to accept they have that glassy quality.

[biggator6]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Maybe, but I would never recommend those for studio use.
One of the biggest issues for recording drummers is controlling loud cymbals.
Avedis A's and Sabian AA's are both on the loud, rocky side.
Paiste have a reputation for having a 'glassy' sound.
Yes, you're right, it's totally subjective, but glass is transparent, clean, shiny and clear..... so on a subjective level you don't want something with dark overtones or a mid range honk.
I guess the ultimate cymbal for the glass description for me would be the Paiste 602. I haven't played 2002's for years, but I'm prepared to accept they have that glassy quality.

What cymbals are you playing most these days, Chris?

[lord_bunny]

I have 2002's and the sound formula, which predates the signature line, and although they both are thin (the ones I have at least), the sound formula series sounds more "expensive" than the 2002's. Of course there is more to it than that, cymbals sound different within their individual lines and sizes.

I really just gravitate between those and K series Zildjan's. A lot of guys bring a lot of cymbals through here, and I like what they bring often, but if I get my way I'm using either line depending on the material at hand.

Kind of like using the same mics a lot, using the same cymbal selection and having 3-5 snares I trust is teaching me a lot about my room and about where I am as a mixer.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by biggator6

What cymbals are you playing most these days, Chris?

I'm not doing a lot of drumming, but when I play, the late 80's, early 90's K's.
are still doing it for me, still sounding good.
I've added a few Armand's and the 18" K Con crash is a beaut.
If I had the money and time to spend buying and selling I'd be interested in putting together a set of 602's. I've played a few outstanding examples, but many that are vanilla/boring to my ears. So, like Zildjian, I think it would be a case of buying and selling off ebay and cherry picking the best.

[AudioWonderland]

Originally Posted by Jax

Since you know it's really about cymbal choice, then you know that trying to mix in a glassy sound after the fact is putting the cart before the horse. If you're usually going for glassy, get some Paiste 2002's.

That was my thought. You have to get it right at the source. 2002's should give you that sound

[valjean24601]

I'm very surprised that no-one has mentioned the Sabian AAX line so far. They are without doubt the 'glassiest' cymbals I've played and have the added benefit of responding sonically identical regardless of what dynamic they're played at.

People have mentioned the Sabian AA line but for me, they don't explode enough to be called glassy. I used to use a variety of AA crashes back in the day but got shot of them because they sounded like their sound didn't fully expand into a full bodied crash and as a result sounded somewhat choked. Maybe that was just my particular experience though.


I'm now using all Sabian HH series and couldn't be happier.

Cheers, Mark.

[ivmike]

Originally Posted by Dr. Mordo

Yeah, I tend to think of the glassy sound as the sound of pressed european cymbals. So try Meinl or Paiste, and I personally tend toward their thinner cymbals.

In terms of mixing, hpf way up at 6-7k. I wouldn't boost above 10k, just cut everything below 6-7k.

For the record, Paiste cymbals are not pressed into shape; they are hammered into shape (the videos from the Paiste Factory show this). And Zildjian and Sabian are pressed into shape by the drop hammer that Zildjian invented in the 1950s.

For what it's worth, to me it doesn't matter whether the cymbal is pressed, hammered or spun into shape; the sound is paramount. I simply wanted to correct misinformation on the Internots.

Originally Posted by Slipperman

I agree on the Paiste kit like 2002, Sound Creation and Signature for "glassy" sounds. Always got that "old school telephone ringing" overtone that HANGS in the air, so to speak.

The Meinl kit not so much. It's has the 'overtone' WITHOUT the 'tone' in most of the ones I've tried. I do actually own and use a few of them. Hysterically, I was working at a drum shop in 1985 when the line hit the USA for the first time and I owned almost every single cymbal they made at one point.

The lines back then were called: Volcanic Rock, HiTech, Rock Velvet, and Double Dragon. The Double Dragon line was very soft-alloy Chinese sounding stuff in standard cymbal forms. They had a 16" Double Dragon that I have NEVER been able to find anything remotely as effective in, as a fast pattern china cymbal since.

I search ebay for one used at LEAST once a month.

Ya know.

I think I'm gonna start hanging here in "drums" with you guys if you'll have me.

About the only place in this forum that isn't over-run by marauding text zombies.

Anyhoo.

As an AE: I think that getting a really good "glassy" cymbal track is a heck of a lot more complicated than a lotta people suspect/admit.

It's also MASSIVELY related to CONTEXT in the aggregate mix(ain't it always?).

I'm working right now, gotta be fairly brief, but man...

What a can of WORMS. And one I have(as a drummer and mix AE) struggled WILDLY with for 3 decades.

I will tell ya this...

And NOBODY may wanna hear it(I don't blame ya OR take it personally) but...

HITTING 2" Analog for drums is a MASSIVE advantage in managing overheads downstream in mix for ROCK MUSIC, in the fabric of my experience.

Ain't always something you CAN do, for all the obvious reasons.

Ain't saying it's something ya GOTTA do to get a good "glassy" overheads sound either.

BUT...

For ME...

The "statistical yield" of hitting tape on INPUT vs. any kinda "digital collection PLUS downstream tom-foolery(tape ems/eqs/comps/satplugs/whatever) is still WAY greater on overheads AS MUCH or MORE than close-miced drums, which is where a lotta guys notice a difference.

I'm JUST SAYIN.

I don't CARE.

I don't WANT it to be true.

I don't NEED it to be true.

In almost EVERY respect, I decidedly wish it WAS NOT true. It makes for WAAAAYYYYYYY more work in so many ways UNTIL you get in mix...

But, IN MIX... I keep coming back to it.

God help me/kill me.

I remember when I did my first all digital recordings in the late 80's, thinking a "veil had been lifted" from the overheads, and being THRILLED with it. Also the whole low/no noise-floor thing which was LOVED. Ahh me. I was doing a VERY HEAVY metal record(for the standards of that time) and the band HATED it. HATED it. It was my second record with them and they complained BITTERLY throughout that everything sounded SMALLER than the first one. I COULDN'T HEAR IT. It just sounded so much CLEARER to me... I thought they were on crack.

A quarter of a century and literally WAY over a million dollars of technology bought and sold later... later I'm still fighting the SAME battles.

I just wait for every night when I get to go play my drums for 2 hrs. from 1-3am. and forget about audio. It's like going to church. It's that uplifting and spiritual at this juncture. It's insane. I've been learning to really control all the standard rudiments with my feet. Everything. All the accepted rules and regulations of the hands. Everything from the flam tap to the Swiss Army Triplet. You name it. Hilarious! Reliving all the EXACT same battles on feet that you went through with the hands 2-3 decades ago.

OK. Rambling. Again.

Gotta flee.

Workee/Bedlam.

SM.

I love this post, Slippy. Especially the part about fighting the same battles...

Paiste has a reputation (an accurate one) of being able to create cymbals, regardless of alloy, with glassy overtones.

Case in point:

Slippy suggested Sound Creations and Chris suggested 602s - these are both B20 alloy.

Slippy suggested Signatures (B15) as well as 2002s (B8).

And to Slippy, those Meinl Dragons were pretty amazing pies; made in China and "finished" in West Germany (a few hammer whacks and ink screening) they certainly were not for the faint of heart. If you are looking for "that" sound again look at Dream Bliss Cymbals; they are made in the same foundry as the Dragons were and are stinking cheap to purchase (great cymbals, though).

[Slipperman]

Originally Posted by ivmike

And to Slippy, those Meinl Dragons were pretty amazing pies; made in China and "finished" in West Germany (a few hammer whacks and ink screening) they certainly were not for the faint of heart. If you are looking for "that" sound again look at Dream Bliss Cymbals; they are made in the same foundry as the Dragons were and are stinking cheap to purchase (great cymbals, though).

Whoa!!!

Thanx a million!!!

I gotta check those out!

I'm like a kid at Xmas right now. I have NEVER had anything that played exactly like that 1st 16" Double Dragon China I had.

Musta been late 1985, maybe early 1986.

Being a ham-handed idiot who(still) plays with 2b's. I busted it, beating on it like a chimp... and immediately got a replacement. Unfortunately, the replacement cymbal was a much darker and somehow, deader, sounding disc... and those things are already way down that "dark trash" road. I also had an 18" Double Dragon that never grew on me, and I lost them both on the road at the St. Louis airport. Left 'em in a "second" cymbal bag, in a cab trunk, and never got around to finding them... as I was flying out to Europe via JFK, and by the time I could do anything about it, they had long gone the way of the buffalo.

Crash.

No pun intended.

Oh yeah!!!

In that earlier post I forgot that Meinl had one more line back then I still have a few cymbals from:

The Rakes. I think it's "Rakes". It's either that or "Raker". The logo is bizarre and difficult to read.

In any event, I suspect those suckers were Meinls answer to the Paiste "Rude" stuff.

I have a set of 14" Rakes that are the meanest, loudest, most clanky hi-hats I have ever heard bar none. They are STELLAR for working "stepped" patterns, and cut DIRECTLY through the God awful din I make with the other 3 limbs.

However.

In the past 2 years, I've had them on my SONOR kit, mounted directly in the center above the tom line on a DW9000 remote hat, which I use with my right foot. I'm doing the old 4 pedal double kick/hat/remote hat "feets don't fail me now" thing with either foot being able to play kick or hat.

Here's the kicker(will the puns never cease?),

The DW9000 remote hat feels like a BRICK.

It's the first remote hat I've ever owned, and I'm just kinda baffled by how slow and heavy feeling it is. I actually FINALLY took it back to the store where I bought it 2 years ago, and paid to have it returned to the company. This after suffering with it for about a year, thinking I was going crazy. Adjusting it to hell and back fruitlessly. The loosest tension still feels like I'm lifting a Bosendorfer Imperial.

DW sent it back to me after 3 weeks. It was IDENTICAL to when it left. I honestly think they just stuck it back in the box and shipped it back here. ZERO improvement.

Oh God.

Sorry for the thread hijack, but it's 9:45am, I haven't been to bed yet, and I got session call @ 12:30pm sooooo... if I don't type this now, I'll NEVER remember to do it(Hey!! I didn't remember to bring the DW remote back for about a year either. The guy at the store looked at me like I was crazy).

The one person who I HAVE talked to about it, seemed to think that "all those remotes are slower than f*ck", and consequently, I just have gone back to dealing with it.

OK. So here's my question.

Finally.

Do ANY brand of remote hihats allow for speedy ostinato stuff like you can cop on a good standard hihat with some work. Like allegro stepped triplet figures?

'Cause the combination of those ten ton Meinl rakes and the DW remote from Hades is threatening to put my right calf in the ICU.

HOHOHO.


Thanks for any and all help!!!

XOXOX

Slippy

[biggator6]

Slippy,
how remote do you need it? Offset, or other-side-of-the-kit?

There's a guy who makes a cool offset hihat stand (I'll dig up the name), but it's not a real REMOTE thing.. it just lets you set it up in offset configs.

[ivmike]

Originally Posted by Slipperman

Whoa!!!

Thanx a million!!!

I gotta check those out!

I'm like a kid at Xmas right now. I have NEVER had anything that played exactly like that 1st 16" Double Dragon China I had.

Musta been late 1985, maybe early 1986.

Being a ham-handed idiot who(still) plays with 2b's. I busted it, beating on it like a chimp... and immediately got a replacement. Unfortunately, the replacement cymbal was a much darker and somehow, deader, sounding disc... and those things are already way down that "dark trash" road. I also had an 18" Double Dragon that never grew on me, and I lost them both on the road at the St. Louis airport. Left 'em in a "second" cymbal bag, in a cab trunk, and never got around to finding them... as I was flying out to Europe via JFK, and by the time I could do anything about it, they had long gone the way of the buffalo.

Crash.

No pun intended.

Oh yeah!!!

In that earlier post I forgot that Meinl had one more line back then I still have a few cymbals from:

The Rakes. I think it's "Rakes". It's either that or "Raker". The logo is bizarre and difficult to read.

In any event, I suspect those suckers were Meinls answer to the Paiste "Rude" stuff.

I have a set of 14" Rakes that are the meanest, loudest, most clanky hi-hats I have ever heard bar none. They are STELLAR for working "stepped" patterns, and cut DIRECTLY through the God awful din I make with the other 3 limbs.

However.

In the past 2 years, I've had them on my SONOR kit, mounted directly in the center above the tom line on a DW9000 remote hat, which I use with my right foot. I'm doing the old 4 pedal double kick/hat/remote hat "feets don't fail me now" thing with either foot being able to play kick or hat.

Here's the kicker(will the puns never cease?),

The DW9000 remote hat feels like a BRICK.

It's the first remote hat I've ever owned, and I'm just kinda baffled by how slow and heavy feeling it is. I actually FINALLY took it back to the store where I bought it 2 years ago, and paid to have it returned to the company. This after suffering with it for about a year, thinking I was going crazy. Adjusting it to hell and back fruitlessly. The loosest tension still feels like I'm lifting a Bosendorfer Imperial.

DW sent it back to me after 3 weeks. It was IDENTICAL to when it left. I honestly think they just stuck it back in the box and shipped it back here. ZERO improvement.

Oh God.

Sorry for the thread hijack, but it's 9:45am, I haven't been to bed yet, and I got session call @ 12:30pm sooooo... if I don't type this now, I'll NEVER remember to do it(Hey!! I didn't remember to bring the DW remote back for about a year either. The guy at the store looked at me like I was crazy).

The one person who I HAVE talked to about it, seemed to think that "all those remotes are slower than f*ck", and consequently, I just have gone back to dealing with it.

OK. So here's my question.

Finally.

Do ANY brand of remote hihats allow for speedy ostinato stuff like you can cop on a good standard hihat with some work. Like allegro stepped triplet figures?

'Cause the combination of those ten ton Meinl rakes and the DW remote from Hades is threatening to put my right calf in the ICU.

HOHOHO.


Thanks for any and all help!!!

XOXOX

Slippy

Slipper-mensch;

I've always been disappointed with remote hat set-ups; the bicycle brake cable that is used seems awfully slow to me (I like 15" 2002 hats) so I tend to stick to something more direct.

I used to have a Meinl Raker crash back in the 90s (back when I tracked an album in Aardy's studio) I bought it for exactly the reasons that you stated here: it was essentially a Paiste RUDE copy, made in Germany. In fact, it sat well with the other RUDES that I owned at the time. I ended up selling it with an old kit and saving my pennies for Paiste cymbals.

As for the Dream stuff, there's a drum shop in Ottawa (Ontario) that is run by a great guy named Dave, that carries piles of the Dream Bliss stuff. I think that he might have been one of the first dealers, in fact. Hit him up here and tell him what you are looking for; he'll even play some of the pies over the phone for you.

[Jax]

Originally Posted by ivmike

And to Slippy, those Meinl Dragons were pretty amazing pies; made in China and "finished" in West Germany (a few hammer whacks and ink screening) they certainly were not for the faint of heart. If you are looking for "that" sound again look at Dream Bliss Cymbals; they are made in the same foundry as the Dragons were and are stinking cheap to purchase (great cymbals, though).

Having never played them, I can't speak to the qualities of Meinl Dragons, but I do have a Dream Bliss 19" Crash Ride that is exceptional and quite unlike any other cymbal I've played. It speaks in trashy, Chinese obscenities while at the same time possessing a wide, airy tone. Played lightly, it can pick up the stick tip while bordering on breaking from a whisper to a roar like a good woman in heat. And ****ing-A can it Roar! It can be the loudest cymbal I've ever shared a room with.

I compared it closely with a Sabian HHX X-Treme Crash, which is said to have the same voice, and does for the most part. I couldn't distinguish any volume difference and tonally, they were very similar. But the Sabian didn't like to be ridden, whereas the Bliss seemed to have a soft pocket cut out out for riding. And there was no way I was paying close to $300 for the Sabian when the Dream was 20' away for $117 and change, after taxes.

The only drawback is the Dream's bell, which sounds a bit thin, tiny, and high pitched. However, it is an interesting sound.

When I was buying the Crash Ride, I also picked up another Dream cymbal: their 16" Contact. It sounds like a giant splash, or a hi hat gone wrong when someone at the factory mistook it for a crash and hammered it accordingly. It is heavy enough to be a hi hat bottom. Lots of character in this one. I stacked an inverted A custom 8" splash on the Dream so they share bells, and it makes for a really cool Pash-ingjjjj! kind of sound.

The Dream stuff is highly underrated.

[Slipperman]

Originally Posted by biggator6

Slippy,
how remote do you need it? Offset, or other-side-of-the-kit?

There's a guy who makes a cool offset hihat stand (I'll dig up the name), but it's not a real REMOTE thing.. it just lets you set it up in offset configs.

Hey Biggie and all!

Well, I've seen the one guy who builds the offset thing and unfortunately that's not gonna get the hats where I need 'em to be.

Looks like, from the other comments and some more checking on the subject on the various forums and whatnot, that the common consensus is yer just not gonna get the kinda action I'm hoping for outta these "wire" stylee remote hats. I dunno, I'm gonna go try the Pearl one soon and see if it's not at least a LITTLE better than the DW9000.

Just a little explanation of why I'm going batty on this: A coupla years ago, I got some kinda wacky Auto-Immune bug(like MS) and it's really profoundly affected some things for me. ie. I went largely blind, and I have had a lotta weird balance and kinda vertigo issues as well. Crazy neuropathy pain. Etc. Anyhoo. Is what it is, and thankfully it has not been nearly as hard on my "seated balance", so I still feel pretty solid sitting at the drums playing.

However, I decided, when I first got sick, after reading some BS on the subject, to try to challenge my brain as much as possible every day.

So I set up 2 drumkits. One, a beautiful wood hooped Ayotte kit loaned to me by my old pal Tucker Rule of the band Thursday(He's got a bunch of them, this one was in his Mom's garage-HOHOHO), which I set up as a completely "lefty" 5 pc. kit in every traditional sense of how you would set up a left-handed kit with one rack and 2 floor toms.

Problem is, NOW, after playing the Ayotte kit ONLY for 2 solid years, I have advanced enough to enjoy playing "lefty" as a function of "practicing drums", but am not, unfortunately, "fluid" enough as a left handed drummer to play on records. Something I have started doing again(go figure) with some regularity in the last 6 months or so.



So, I set up my old SONOR Phonic Plus 6pc.(which I've had since 1985), with a ride cymbal on each side, to try to get the ambidextrous vibe going on... mostly just because I wanna keep "practicing lefty" at whim every night, now that I need to keep the "righty" thing up to speed for work purposes. The double pedal affords me the use of either foot on the kick drum, and I was hoping the remote would allow me the same if I stuck in next to the right side of the kick drum pedal.

No banana. It's just too slow. When I play on the Ayottes, I can get all kinza modestly quick ostinato stepped hat patterns going with a regular old hihat stand, which really make playing lefty a lotta "instant gratification" fun for me. Patterns which are wholly impossible to even remotely(no pun! no pun!) attempt to execute with the DW9000 series remote hats. It drives me totally nuts. Like I said. It's like a BRICK.


If the Pearl remote isn't a whole lot better, I'm just gonna hafta bite the bullet, move floor tom back towards where it would go if I was using 2 floors, and jam a standard(or one of those offset hats), into the ensuing hole under the right hand ride. Something I have been avoiding/dreading doing as I'm on the long end of nigh on 4 decades of having the floor tom directly underneath my right elbow and hate the "reaching for the back floor" twisting motion you get into.

Oh God. Another long winded harangue. Sorry.


Don't kick me out.

I'm shutting up now.

XOXO

Slippy

PS. Jax and ivmike, thanks for the additional info on the Bliss stuff. I checked out every audio sample they had on the web site, and the 16" bliss crash is a pretty good starting point for the sound I'm "remembering"(we all know how THAT goes). I'm gonna look into seeing if I can get my hands on one of those soon.

[biggator6]

You could go all Bill Bruford and make an ambidextrous kit.. hats at 12 o'clock, kick offset so that the double pedal is dead even (like true double kicks).. rides on both sides, toms on both sides.

It would certainly make for an interesting conversation piece and some good blooper video if nothing else.
"-)

[Jax]

Slippy,

How about this doohickey?

I had my eye on that as a potential remedy for decreasing the amount I have to cross over my snare hand to play my hats. My double pedal forces the hats to be a bit farther away than I'd like, but it's manageable-ish. When I looked at what parts of my kit already occupied the real estate between the double pedals, hi tom and crash, I saw that it wouldn't work for me; but it would work with a different setup.

Hope you're doing well with yer health battles, Slip!

[Jax]

Forgot to mention how you setup the above. It clamps onto your bass drum hoop and then you close the legs on your HH stand, which places the hats closer to your center and keeps the HH stand legs from jungle ****ing the other stands.