click track advise?

[loopjunkie]

So I was recording tonight and my drummer is trying to play to the click track and he keeps asking for it louder; he cant hear it. Finally I come to a point where i tell him there is no more loud i can give you, and its bleeding into the mix anyways, and he looks at me like I just stabbed him. What is the deal? how can i make him be able to "hear" the click? (on a side note, he is the most accurate drummer i have ever played with. I am using the stock Pro-tools LE click tracks into a headphone amp with Audio technica ATH-M20 phones. Any help would be appreciated; tips, or better plug-ins, anything?

[against88]

can you sync up reason in your protools session? (i know its possible, and probably quite, simple, but i'm asking if you can) because that might be a good way... you could use a kick drum (my favorite) instead of the protools "beep" or cowbell.

i've also heard that some people like to play along to a simple drum loop so it has a little more life than a beep beep beep beep.

my four cents.
-will

[LightningBefore]

yeah I was curious how you do that too. . . I was shown it once and couldn't replicate it awhile later. . .

[Slaytex]

This is why I use "Groove Agent". I just set the tempo in Nuendo and hit play on groove agent and away I go. I've also had the gtr player track first using this same scenario. I have experienced the "I can't hear the beep" and believe it is due to the fact that it is in the same freq. range as your cymbals which masks over it. You can also have a beep play on the 1 beat and have a shaker on the 2, 3 & 4. You can do the latter in PT.
Good luck.

[dirren]

Use another sound for click, and if possible:

[King Of Spain]

i get those 30db ear protection dealios from Home Depot and put them on top of the headphones to reduce bleed into the overheads...as none is acceptable...if you use in-ear buds instead of phones for the drummer, you'll reduce external bleed as well...but I use the hearing protection on top of my 7506s and it works fine.

3M makes them and Peltor makes them and they were both at home depot last time I was there...though that was two years ago.

[vtone]

Originally Posted by dirren

Use another sound for click, and if possible:

yes, I second this recommendation. it seems to me that he doesn't have a problem with the sound of the click, just the volume.

I always had trouble hearing the click when playing drums until I improved my headphones-- absolutely isolates any outside noise so the click is loud and clear.

I use peltor 'hear safe' ear phones, made in germany. has a volume control on the left ear muff.

http://www.peltor.com/peltor.com/default2.cfm

[Riad]

I have the Vic Ferth headphones, they are very good.

[toolskid]

Originally Posted by loopjunkie

So I was recording tonight and my drummer is trying to play to the click track and he keeps asking for it louder; he cant hear it. Finally I come to a point where i tell him there is no more loud i can give you, and its bleeding into the mix anyways, and he looks at me like I just stabbed him. What is the deal? how can i make him be able to "hear" the click? (on a side note, he is the most accurate drummer i have ever played with. I am using the stock Pro-tools LE click tracks into a headphone amp with Audio technica ATH-M20 phones. Any help would be appreciated; tips, or better plug-ins, anything?

difficult to advise without hearing his headphone mix, but louder is usually not necessary:

1. pan the click, even a little can be a marked difference in audibility
2. choose a different sound and print it to tools or use a rom-pler or other software. a hi hat sound can be very effective!
3. adjust his headphone balance so its more 'click-friendly'

[Relax]

Originally Posted by toolskid

3. adjust his headphone balance so its more 'click-friendly'

why not lower the track/drums in his headphones to percieve a louder click?

[dbbubba]

I have probebly cut around 500 production music cuts using a click over the years and I hav found that when you are ploying on the beat it DOES get hard to distinquish the click from what is going on in the track or live in the room.

When I work with a band I still try to use a click, but I am fortunate enough to use a VERY experienced session drummer. He plays several sessiions per week (or per day) and works with anything.

If I had a drummer who didn't play to click all of the time I'd be hesitant to mess with asking him to try it. Unless a drummer is VERY good at playoing with a click track and comfortable with it his timing will be compromized to a degree many times. It might just be a groove issue, but it's is too much of a compromise.

On material that I am realy serious about I construct a quantized, tempo correct, MIDI version with real GTRs and scratch vocals. I'll then have Mr. Session player track real drums to the temp version. I then go back and re-record everything listening and playing to the real drums. I get great results this way. I posted a few rock cuts on the .mp3 page a few weeks back and most agreed that the tracks rocked.

This can be a slow process because you do everything twice, but unless you can get the whole band in one place for enough time to track the rythym tracks properly it works equally well. I use guys sperad around the country, so this is a must for me.

Of the 500 production music cuts I mention I had the drums put on LAST! Everything was cut against MIDI versions where we replaced all of the tracks. Still, we did drums last and believe it or not you can cut pretty swinging stuff like big band this way. Obviously, more pop stuff is a breeze. It takes a good drummer, but it sure is easier for him to play to a full band!

Click tracks can be your best friend or worst ightmare!

Danny Brown

[kevinc]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

If I had a drummer who didn't play to click all of the time I'd be hesitant to mess with asking him to try it. Unless a drummer is VERY good at playoing with a click track and comfortable with it his timing will be compromized to a degree many times. It might just be a groove issue, but it's is too much of a compromise.

That`s the first thing I thought of when I read the title of this thread.

I`m a guitar player and I`ve practiced for years and years with a click track. I can play fully in the pocket without it making me too rigid and even play with various levels of pocket when I get into it enough. After a half hour or so of playing I can tune it out to the point I rarely hear it.

Nobody else in my band can play to one worth a shit including my drummer. It just makes him nervous and he`s either too fast or too slow all the time. Without the click he`s steady as a rock both in timing in dynamics so I canned the idea of using a click with him ever again.

Why bother ? How "perfect" does it need to be especially if your compromising his natural ability instead of helping it ?

[analogjeff]

I'm not a huge fan of the click in general -- I love playing to them, but I don't usually like the music they produce. BUT, if you're using one, the key is, as other's have noted, to use a sound that cuts through the music in a musical way. The Pro Tools click is horrible -- the worst -- for this. Often, I find that a good woody-sounding sidestick sits pretty well, but let your drummer sort out what works best for him.

[LAstudio]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

On material that I am realy serious about I construct a quantized, tempo correct, MIDI version with real GTRs and scratch vocals. I'll then have Mr. Session player track real drums to the temp version. I then go back and re-record everything listening and playing to the real drums.

I think this is spot on! Giving the drummer something to groove with along with the click also helps retain more of a natural feel.

[loopjunkie]

Thanks everyone for the replies! I play guitar, and practice only with a metronome, My drummer dose to; but his counts? It audibly says one..two...three...four; If I had a plug-in like that I think we would be golden but I also thought about the thing about recording drums last; I CAN play to a click, but it just slaughters my mojo. I usually play off of him when we play. so I will try both; but if anyone has an idea for a counting click let me know. Thanks everyone!!!!!!

[loopjunkie]

Originally Posted by dirren

Use another sound for click, and if possible:

I am going to order a pair tonight
Thanks for the tip!

[GPl]

What about the headphones with a built in click track? I can'remember the name but remember being in on a session with one available.....

[neve1073]

Originally Posted by loopjunkie

So I was recording tonight and my drummer is trying to play to the click track and he keeps asking for it louder; he cant hear it. Finally I come to a point where i tell him there is no more loud i can give you, and its bleeding into the mix anyways, and he looks at me like I just stabbed him. What is the deal? how can i make him be able to "hear" the click? (on a side note, he is the most accurate drummer i have ever played with. I am using the stock Pro-tools LE click tracks into a headphone amp with Audio technica ATH-M20 phones. Any help would be appreciated; tips, or better plug-ins, anything?

Not hearing the click can be a good thing--if it means he is so tight that his hits are right on the click. If he wants to hear the click, use a sample of a cowbell or something and paste it on the grid.

[con_ritmo]

Originally Posted by loopjunkie

Thanks everyone for the replies! I play guitar, and practice only with a metronome, My drummer dose to; but his counts? It audibly says one..two...three...four; If I had a plug-in like that I think we would be golden

so he can follow the sound of a metronome while practicing?
what's wrong with this picture?

in other words, the answer isn't more volume (hey, we deal with masking all the time right? approach this the same way...)
as others have said, it's changing the sound of the beat. add subdivisions to the beat too if possible.

actually, why don't you just sample HIS metronome and trigger the samples with midi?

make your own darn "one-two-three-four".

[toolskid]

Originally Posted by neve1073

Not hearing the click can be a good thing--if it means he is so tight that his hits are right on the click. If he wants to hear the click, use a sample of a cowbell or something and paste it on the grid.

thats exactly what I do, I use a very quiet hi-hat so I CAN'T hear the click unless I'm out with it, you can then focus on the groove and music!!!

[nathanvacha]

Someone might have said this already, but if he can't hear the click track that's good! If the click is loud, the only way he's not hearing it is if it's on time with the drums he's hitting right in front of him (they will always be louder than the click) You said he's the most accurate drummer you're played with? Coach him on that... if he starts hearing the click, you probably want another take...

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by nathanvacha

Someone might have said this already, but if he can't hear the click track that's good! If the click is loud, the only way he's not hearing it is if it's on time with the drums he's hitting right in front of him (they will always be louder than the click) You said he's the most accurate drummer you're played with? Coach him on that... if he starts hearing the click, you probably want another take...

What? So not hearing the click is good? Then what's the problem? I'm confused yet again?

[Riad]

Originally Posted by allencollins

What? So not hearing the click is good? Then what's the problem? I'm confused yet again?

When the click completely dissapears, he's right on.

[lydog]

Another vote for incorporating something other than the ProTools "Atari beep" click track.

I use a simple bass/snare loop from Reason.

[C/G]

Originally Posted by analogjeff

use a sound that cuts through the music in a musical way.

I play to a click on some of our songs due to sequencing and the click I use now for rehearsing is the shits. I have a hard time hearing the click and have to crank the volume, then my ears ring for a day after rehearsing. It is a splatty sounding click and I much prefer a cow bell type sound as that usually doesn't get lost in the synths. I need a cheap drum machine with midi so I don't have to fry my ears any more.
I have been looking at the Alesis SR16 drum machine for this.