70s Drums (Billy Joel- The Stranger)

[NB@VB]

Hiya chaps!

Ok, I was listening to Billy Joel's 'The Stranger' album. I particularly like
'Scenes from an Italian Restaurant' (about 1:30 in) and 'Only the Good Die Young'. The drum sound us awesome.
So, how to get that sound?

I know it'll be down to tuning and dampening of the toms, and also down to the kit being close miced, but does anyone have an idea on mics used or any particular processing that went in to that album's sound? Comps etc?

Im a Logic user tryin to get an anolog sound in this case.

Any thoughts?

[cgarges]

I think Liberty Devito was playing Tama Imperialstar drums back then, which had thick (birch?) shells with a coating sprayed on the inside that made them brighter than similar drums with a natural interior. I want to say that I've seen footage of him playing with Remo Black Dot heads on the toms at that point, but that's a very filtered memory. Those toms seem like they're tuned REALLY loosely, if memory serves correctly, and they seem to have the type of attack that indicates no bottom heads. Again, I'm willing to accept being wrong about that.

Phil Ramone did that record, no? Two things come to mind that it seems I've read about him ragarding those Billy Joel records. One is that he liked the muffling technique of taping a folded paper towel to the rim of the drum, so that it moved up when the drum was struck and settled back down on the head a moment later. Two is that he liked using Beyer M160s on the toms. I could be remembering that stuff incorrectly, but that's what comes to mind.

Liberty also hits REALLY hard. Like, INSANELY hard.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[BradL8068]

Hello
I'm Brad Leigh ( or Bradshaw Leigh depending where you are looking ), worked with Phil and Billy starting with 52nd street through River of Dreams.
I believe the drum mic setup was pretty much the same on Stranger , 52nd Street, and Glass Houses. I was present as a tech on 52nd street, assistant engineer on Glass Houses, then did engineering from that point on. Jim Boyer was the engineer on Stranger and most of Billy's recording. D-12 on kick, M-88's on Toms, Km-84 hat, Km-84 or 57 on Snare, C-12a or 414 on Overheads, -10, 75 rolloff. Lib was not a tweeker with his drums in the early days, so much of his tuning was by gut, not the more scientific methods used these days. That had a big effect on the sounds, and bits of gaffer tape, and tissue paper were often used to tame the resonances. I recall him using a TAMA kit in the early days. It was recorded in A&R Studio A-1, a very large but not very live room. The drums were on a riser with very minimal gobo's that were built into the riser maybe 3 feet high. The room was great, big and soft. Oh small note, the Piano , bass and Bass amp were all in the same room. Surprising most of Billy's vocals were live.
Hope that helps.
Brad
www.leighaudio.blogspot.com

[BradL8068]

A small P.S
A-1 had a Neve 8068 which spoiled me for life. The only compressors I recall in the room were 6 Neve 2264, and a few DBX 160s.
The only compression I would expect would have been Bass, Vocals, Kick, and Guitars, possible snare on the recording some more was used in the Mix,
but not much.
Phil's tuned the amazing EMT 140 plates and no one was allowed to touch then. Always used in stereo, one plate left another for right, matched
beautifully.
B

www.leighaudio.blogspot.com

[Silver Sonya]

Yay! I love when this happens on GS.

- c

[cgarges]

How awesome is THAT?

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[BradL8068]

Chris
By the way for someone that wasn't there you were very close.
Yes Lib does hit insanely hard, and I do believe, ( but I'm not sure ) that there were no bottom heads on the toms and most likely no front head on the kick.
B

[cgarges]

Originally Posted by BradL8068

Chris
By the way for someone that wasn't there you were very close.

Thanks! I've seen Liberty play in person (with Billy back in the late 80s), so there was no guesswork about the hard hitting! Plus, I know a few people who know him and they all describe his playing the same way. They also all say that he's an extremely nice dude.

Hey Brad, could it have been that an M160 was used on the lead vocal? Seems like I'm remembering seeing that M88s and M160s were used and I'm thinking I was getting the positions of the two mixed up. Of course, that could have been a description of a different session. too. Did Phil have that effects box set up next to Billy on that session, so that Billy could dial in "more Elvis," etc?

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Ashermusic]

This is GS at its best. Thanks Brad.

BTW, this is what music used to sound like before all the dynamic range was eliminated through over compression in the misguided pursuit of getting it as loud as possible.

[NB@VB]

Wow....

To be honest I thought this post was gonna sit on it's lonesome, but no.

What a wicked set of replies!

Thank you very much for sharing the detailed info Brad & Chris!

I may well try some the techniques myself where possible.

GS truly is a gold mine.

[BradL8068]

Chris
I do remember Billy using a 160, It is hard for even me to believe because he eats the mic and I would never expect a Ribbon to hold up. The side rejection is amazing and I think that is why Phil and Jim used it. His mic was constantly changing though, because we used a lot of his live tracking vocals we were always looking for somethings new. Often we tried what he was using live.
The music before compression had one huge advantage. When you turned it up really loud it punched you in the stomach. These new digital compressor plug in's are amazing but they trim off the transient peaks, so when you crank it it just gets loud but not alive and punchy. Joe Jackson even released a record on pure vinyl and cut it softer to maintain the transients. It had a sticker on the album that just said turn it up! It was amazing.
The most common effects in those days were pedals connected to auxe's on the console. Roland space echo was for slap and delays, some mxr stuff for phase, as the years when on phil built a rack with a lot of stuff, prime time, ursa minor, ADR auto double track. There was always a tape slap around as well.
B
www.leighaudio.blogspot.com

[Jax]

Originally Posted by cgarges

Liberty also hits REALLY hard. Like, INSANELY hard.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Well, now you got me wanting to see a Youtube video of him playing.

[Jax]

Yeah he does hit pretty damn hard. At least as hard as David Grohl, or myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJBoHa3GArA

[equipmentdork]

Originally Posted by cgarges

I think Liberty Devito was playing Tama Imperialstar drums back then, which had thick (birch?) shells with a coating sprayed on the inside that made them brighter than similar drums with a natural interior. I want to say that I've seen footage of him playing with Remo Black Dot heads on the toms at that point, but that's a very filtered memory. Those toms seem like they're tuned REALLY loosely, if memory serves correctly, and they seem to have the type of attack that indicates no bottom heads. Again, I'm willing to accept being wrong about that.

Phil Ramone did that record, no? Two things come to mind that it seems I've read about him ragarding those Billy Joel records. One is that he liked the muffling technique of taping a folded paper towel to the rim of the drum, so that it moved up when the drum was struck and settled back down on the head a moment later. Two is that he liked using Beyer M160s on the toms. I could be remembering that stuff incorrectly, but that's what comes to mind.

Liberty also hits REALLY hard. Like, INSANELY hard.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

I don't have a quote handy, but I remember Liberty saying that he used a set of Pearl fiberglass drums on The Stranger before switching to Tama shortly thereafter(he's with Mapex these days). Old Tama Imperialstars are 9-ply Philippine Mahogany(Luan). The Superstars were birch(mostly).

I once went to a drum clinic of Liberty's and it was by far the best of its kind. And yes, within about 5 mins. of his playing, huge chunks of the white coating were flying off of his snare drum. Just ridiculously focused power. And, a nicely approachable fellow. I remember that he played some of the Billy-produced tracks from River Of Dreams. It was interesting.

I'm a relatively new Gearslut. Great to be here. Amazing to have Brad in this thread!


Dan

[cgarges]

Originally Posted by equipmentdork

I don't have a quote handy, but I remember Liberty saying that he used a set of Pearl fiberglass drums on The Stranger before switching to Tama shortly thereafter(he's with Mapex these days). Old Tama Imperialstars are 9-ply Philippine Mahogany(Luan). The Superstars were birch(mostly).

Aha! Cool! You know, in retrospect, the toms on that record do TOTALLY sound like they could be fiberglass drums. Makes perfect sense.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[surfspank]

I'm friends with Liberty on Facebook and let him know that this thread exists. He's pretty good at answering questions over there provided he has the time.

[l.sicilian]

Originally Posted by BradL8068

A small P.S
A-1 had a Neve 8068 which spoiled me for life. The only compressors I recall in the room were 6 Neve 2264, and a few DBX 160s.
The only compression I would expect would have been Bass, Vocals, Kick, and Guitars, possible snare on the recording some more was used in the Mix,
but not much.
Phil's tuned the amazing EMT 140 plates and no one was allowed to touch then. Always used in stereo, one plate left another for right, matched
beautifully.
B

NY Recording Studio Blog

Brad, thanks for sharing those memories, much appreciated.
-10 was the pad for the OH only I assume?
Nice blog you have

[BradL8068]

Yup -10 / 75 rolloff on the 414's
Thanks
b

[l.sicilian]

Originally Posted by BradL8068

Yup -10 / 75 rolloff on the 414's
Thanks
b

Brad many thanks again.

A couple of things; -10 on the OHs, the drummer must have been hitting hard right?

Where OHs spaced, X/Y, ORTF etc... and how far from and were above the kit, were they centred on the snare, kick/snare, cymbals...?

As a side note, in some cases, I hear the OHs can pick up a great signal from the BD, were there any situations were OHs were not high passed? I imagine unless it's mono, it could be tricky to get the bottom end right with stereo mic'ing, just a thought, any tips on that?

[spiral]

This thread deserves more views.

I grew up listening to Glass Houses and love it, but never really thought about the recording until i started listening to it recently. It sounds fantastic!

Does anyone know how they recorded the vocals? There is a clarity but smoothness that i really like. Also it sits back in the mix but it seems like everything is carved around it... just good mixing/EQ?

[Quadrophonic73]

I once spoke with a guy who did live sound in the mid to late 70s for BJ and he told me all about the mics used on drums live and said often they tried using the same setups in the studio as a starting point (I don't want to spread misinformation so I'll say that the only mic I definitely remember him saying was used was a pair of SM81s as overheads). That's pretty consistent with what I've heard about BJ's conscious choice to use his touring band in the studio starting with Turnstiles in 1976 (which is the reason George Martin declined to produce the Stranger and BJ went with Phil Ramone instead, a choice I'm wholeheartedly grateful for; Martin wanted to use session musicians). BJ was right to do that in my opinion. Listen to the studio version of Captain Jack and compare it to the version I posted below. Enough said.

I'm a huge fan of the production on all of BJs albums from The Stranger to Nylon Curtain. And Liberty DeVitto is the reason I picked up the drums, and ultimately all the other instruments I play. The track that lit the fire under my ass was "Captain Jack" on Songs in the Attic:

Billy Joel - Captain Jack (Live: July 1980) - YouTube

I remember listening to that track on my headphones on repeat as an 11 year old, those drums just sucking me in. I wish live drums still sounded like that on recordings. The funny thing is, I ended up buying a nice Tama kit a couple years ago to be more like Lib, and then he switched to Mapex, which was the kit I just got rid of! I told him about that and said he should still get a commission on the Tama kit. He agreed.

-Alex

[sailor]

Cool thread to bump into...thanks to all for sharing some great info. Count me as another person for whom much of the inspiration for playing drums came from listening to Liberty DeVitto. And Phil Ramone, Jim Boyer, Brad Leigh etc.....those were some of the first "industry names" I learned when I started taking interest in the actual recording of albums.

There's another thread somewhere here about the sound of 52nd Street, not drums specifically but a good thread too. I find the overall sound of The Stranger to be a bit darker than 52nd, but both albums sound great. Really cool that Billy recorded many of his vocals live on the floor....but a listen to any of his live performances shows that he can totally bring it vocally and instrumentally at the same time. Amazing musician.

So Brad, if you run into this thread again....any notes on how you guys got some of the really interesting drum sounds on Nylon Curtain? That weird -y delay effect on "Laura?" The cannon-fire toms on "Surprises?" Great stuff.