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"people who play electronic drums are not real drummers"
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#61
12th February 2011
Old 12th February 2011
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Yes. One is convenient and the other sounds good.

Just kidding. (Well… not really.)
He he, yea. Personally, I like to layer both Also, I PM'd you a question And I just bought the mixing with rock video, cant wait to watch it tonight

You are the man
#62
15th February 2011
Old 15th February 2011
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I would argue that one of these is a highly expressive and organic instrument in its own right. If someone thinks you can do fine with a qwerty keyboard, you've clearly never played one.

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#63
15th February 2011
Old 15th February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L-feld View Post
This thing says "SNARE" and "TOM TOM" and I don't believe for a minute that there's any drums in there.

Too many toms anyway. And no cymbals. sheesh. What a lame kit.
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#64
16th February 2011
Old 16th February 2011
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Originally Posted by CB_Photo View Post
Too many toms anyway.
Clearly why Neil Peart was a Simmons fan.

Anyway, having extra "tom" modules is a blast for making lot's of wacky sound effects. No point in playing electronic drums if you're just going to have them sound like real drums.

One day, maybe I can nab me an SDS7 and have some real fun, like this guy:

#65
16th February 2011
Old 16th February 2011
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drummers make the best faces.
#66
18th February 2011
Old 18th February 2011
  #66
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At 2:00 into this video, Bozzio talks about playing electronic drums.

"It was folly."

'nuff said.
#67
18th February 2011
Old 18th February 2011
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they have there time and there place

'nuff said
#68
18th February 2011
Old 18th February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sameal View Post
they have there time and there place

'nuff said
LOL

Time: Late 70's
Place: Landfill

#69
19th February 2011
Old 19th February 2011
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what about the 80's with goth and industrial? they fit great in those situations as did drum machines. live drummers were sometimes used when the situation called for it, but mostly the sound they were going for was that of drum machines and electronic kits or triggers. it wouldn't be the same without it.


i mean we could have just live acoustic drummers in music for the rest of time if you wanted, but don't you want some variety even if you don't agree with it?

i do.

i bet there's people out there saying electric bass isn't real bass, bring back the bassman!
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#70
19th February 2011
Old 19th February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB_Photo View Post
It's not about the drummer, it's about the instrument. Playing an acoustic instrument is far different than playing an array of MIDI triggers. In one word: dynamics.

Every few months I'm asked to play at one of several churches, and sit down to a Yamaha DTX550K or Roland TD-10 electronic kit. The only dynamic that can be controlled is volume. A soft hit simply makes the identical sampled sound quieter. This is especially true for cymbals. An acoustic drum reacts completely differently when struck softly. For example, I can play towards the rim of an acoustic drum for a sound with higher overtones; not so on a MIDI pad.

Sure, the samples may be perfect, but there is a limitation to an electronic kit that doesn't exist on an acoustic kit.

<sidebar>
Another thing I'll point out is that there's always guys who sit down on these electronic kits and beat the crap out of them with a pair of 2B sticks, and in the process damage the trigger. This creates dead spots on the pad, or worse, requires a costly repair.
I think you need to have a serious look at the Korg Wavedrum. It addresses all of those points that you made about triggering, sampling and overtones (mainly because it doesn't use samples).

And back to the original idea; that somehow one is not a "real" drummer if you play electronics is complete and utter nonsense.

And as skilled as Terry Bozzio is, I personally would not cite him the sole arbiter of "taste" as it pertains to percussion.
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#71
20th February 2011
Old 20th February 2011
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivmike View Post
I think you need to have a serious look at the Korg Wavedrum. It addresses all of those points that you made about triggering, sampling and overtones (mainly because it doesn't use samples).
I played (and photographed) the first version in c.1995 and thought it was a blast to play. The head wore out and was replaced for 4x the price of a regular head, then later the triggers wore out and by that time the unit had been discontinued and repairs were cost prohibitive. Hello eBay.

I've heard the Wave Drum v2 is even better, but I've not played one.

Quote:
And back to the original idea; that somehow one is not a "real" drummer if you play electronics is complete and utter nonsense.
I've never said or agree with the notion that someone who plays electronic triggers is not a real drummer. I just don't have satisfying experiences when playing them, and am never happy with my performance/work when I use them.

Quote:
And as skilled as Terry Bozzio is, I personally would not cite him the sole arbiter of "taste" as it pertains to percussion.
No one is the sole arbiter of taste, but I'm sure he tried/used electronic drums for all they were worth back then. Now that he's with DW, he sounds extremely content with their equipment.
#72
20th February 2011
Old 20th February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB_Photo View Post
I played (and photographed) the first version in c.1995 and thought it was a blast to play. The head wore out and was replaced for 4x the price of a regular head, then later the triggers wore out and by that time the unit had been discontinued and repairs were cost prohibitive. Hello eBay.

I've heard the Wave Drum v2 is even better, but I've not played one.
The new version destroys the original and the head is a Remo FiberSkyn; easily replaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CB_Photo View Post



I've never said or agree with the notion that someone who plays electronic triggers is not a real drummer. I just don't have satisfying experiences when playing them, and am never happy with my performance/work when I use them.
That's fair; I try to use electronic percussion to trigger sounds that I cannot otherwise make with "regular" drums. I also use them in my studio if I want to build MIDI drum parts in songs that require that type of treatment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CB_Photo View Post

No one is the sole arbiter of taste, but I'm sure he tried/used electronic drums for all they were worth back then. Now that he's with DW, he sounds extremely content with their equipment.
Let's not forget that Mr. Bozzio also has had two different cymbal companies create cymbals specific to *his* needs (originally Paiste and now Sabian) and currently, DW builds him whatever he wants; I'd be pretty happy if a drum company built me equipment based on my specifications alone.
#73
21st February 2011
Old 21st February 2011
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivmike View Post
The new version destroys the original and the head is a Remo FiberSkyn; easily replaced.
I see they're $600 from Amazon.com. That's 1/3 the price of the original. thumbsup


Quote:
That's fair; I try to use electronic percussion to trigger sounds that I cannot otherwise make with "regular" drums. I also use them in my studio if I want to build MIDI drum parts in songs that require that type of treatment.
I confess I'm interested in using a device to trigger shakers or handclaps or funky sounds in addition to my kit, but not surrounding myself with them.

Quote:
Let's not forget that Mr. Bozzio also has had two different cymbal companies create cymbals specific to *his* needs (originally Paiste and now Sabian) and currently, DW builds him whatever he wants; I'd be pretty happy if a drum company built me equipment based on my specifications alone.
No lie.
#74
21st February 2011
Old 21st February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB_Photo View Post
I see they're $600 from Amazon.com. That's 1/3 the price of the original. thumbsup




I confess I'm interested in using a device to trigger shakers or handclaps or funky sounds in addition to my kit, but not surrounding myself with them.



No lie.
$1800? Holy cow....that's a lot for one drum.
#75
21st February 2011
Old 21st February 2011
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i'm an acoustics guy! but over the years and lately, i've had three e-kits. played around with them, done some sessions work with them. it has been fun and enlightening, but it's not the same (to me) as acoustics. i don't care how great the e-drum software sounds.. i always feel something is lacking! great for non-drummers doing midi stuff, i'm a real drummer though...no matter how long it takes to get my sound for a session... it makes a big difference to my clients. e-drums have their place, but i put them on the back-burner for sure as the real thing gets the better reaction from my clients, and real drums get a better performance from me every time!
#76
21st February 2011
Old 21st February 2011
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Just like acoustic vs. electric guitar, I play both types of drums because I can do things with each that I can't with the other.
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#77
21st February 2011
Old 21st February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oli P View Post
Any instrument carries it's own discipline...so no, you are not a classical pianist if you play a minimoog...and vice versa not a keyboardist if you only play a grand piano.

That being said, the electronic drums have never been better, and with Superior drummer and other drum software, you can get a pretty realistic performance out of a good electronic kit.

If some people regard it as real or not...who cares

This track (just the drums, bass and some percussion) is played on a Yamaha DTXtreme III with Superior 2.0 as the sound source.
Hey, those drums sound pretty good. Just the stock kits? Processing?
#78
21st February 2011
Old 21st February 2011
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bounce View Post
Just like acoustic vs. electric guitar,
I disagree that it is "just like" acoustic vs. electric guitar.

electric guitar is still a vibrating string manipulated by the human hand - amplified and processed, but still a physical object vibrating and thus capable of 'expression'.

electronic drums are sampled - they are triggered digital playback of pre-recorded sound. You can hit them hard and you can hit them soft, but you can not 'caress' them and you can not 'crush' them.

If you mic'ed up a drum kit and maybe put effects on the channels, THAT would analogous to an electric guitar.



Acoustic vs Electric guitar would be more like a Steinway (with its strings and sounding board) vs a Fender Rhodes (with its tines and pickups.) Both have physical vibration at their core. You could grab the string or tine and choke it off, you could dangle a paper clip on it and make it buzz.

A sampled Piano (or a sampled Rhodes) is a 'third' thing, it is what it is, and that is the analog of a digital drum set.
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#79
22nd February 2011
Old 22nd February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skythemusic View Post
Hey, those drums sound pretty good. Just the stock kits? Processing?
Those are S2.0 Metal Foundry samples...all processing internal except reverbs.
#80
22nd February 2011
Old 22nd February 2011
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
A sampled Piano (or a sampled Rhodes) is a 'third' thing, it is what it is, and that is the analog of a digital drum set.
I agree with that...and like with sampled piano, the quality and amount of samples coupled with the playability of your midi controller, will make all the difference on how expressive your result can be.
#81
5th March 2011
Old 5th March 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I disagree that it is "just like" acoustic vs. electric guitar.

electric guitar is still a vibrating string manipulated by the human hand - amplified and processed, but still a physical object vibrating and thus capable of 'expression'.

electronic drums are sampled - they are triggered digital playback of pre-recorded sound. You can hit them hard and you can hit them soft, but you can not 'caress' them and you can not 'crush' them.

If you mic'ed up a drum kit and maybe put effects on the channels, THAT would analogous to an electric guitar.



Acoustic vs Electric guitar would be more like a Steinway (with its strings and sounding board) vs a Fender Rhodes (with its tines and pickups.) Both have physical vibration at their core. You could grab the string or tine and choke it off, you could dangle a paper clip on it and make it buzz.

A sampled Piano (or a sampled Rhodes) is a 'third' thing, it is what it is, and that is the analog of a digital drum set.
Hey, Joe. Since it's my post you are referring to here, let me re-post it with an edit relevant to my point as I meant it which is as it applies to me, not the science behind vibrating strings, acoustics or electronics, or what anyone else feels they need to be capable of expression specifically :-) I'm not referring to whether or not an electronic drum kit can sound and feel exactly like an acoustic kit.

Post 1:

Just like acoustic vs. electric guitar, I play both types of drums because I can do things with each that I can't with the other.

New post 2 with edit showing what I meant by the above:

Just like acoustic vs. electric guitar, I play both types of guitars because I can do things with each that I can't with the other.

Both are tools of expression for me and some others. I can do things on each, some of which cannot be done equally well on the other. Just know that not all e-drum configs are sample based and not all try to sound like drums in a traditional sense. On my acoustic drums I cannot use a sustain, cv, and pitch bend pedal to play chords and modulate keys while playing rudiment based rhythms, crossfade between sounds on one drum or the whole kit as I play, have sounds get octaves lower in pitch with velocity in the same location, change oscillators with each hit in defined or random cycles, etc. That said, there are SO many things I can do on acoustic that I can't on e-drums. I don't complain about either not being the other just like I don't complain about my guitars. I just use what I need for the job. I could go on about the comparisons of acoustic and electric guitar and drum pads, contact mics/piezo triggers on acoustic drums, e-drums with acoustic heads, hybrids, analog sound sources and sample based (or not) digital ones but I'm really not wanting to come across combative or mad or heck, anything stressed, because I'm FAR from it. I just love both and thought I'd mention it.

In the spirit of an internet forum, I figured I'd reply for the fun of it!

Acoustic or electronic drums can be expressive to a "real drummer" in some ways that are similar (rhythms, groove, etc.) and others that are not. A mixing engineer is still a mixing engineer whether mixing analog or digital in my world :-) Vibrations, magnetic media, ones and zeros, faders or a mouse may make a person adjust the parameters of expression but expression happens in some way. Some feel one is more expressive than the other. Great!! Do it how you do it.
#82
5th March 2011
Old 5th March 2011
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Try setting, properly micing and playing a REAL kit and tell me there the same???

I can play an acoustic and electric guitar.
I can play an electric drumset but you would not want to hire me on an acoustic kit.

EDIT:
My bad, I thought you were referring to "Drum Machines".
Electric kits are closer to acoustic drums.
Play your E kit and I'll shut up.
#83
5th March 2011
Old 5th March 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bounce View Post
Acoustic or electronic drums can be expressive to a "real drummer" in some ways that are similar (rhythms, groove, etc.) and others that are not. A mixing engineer is still a mixing engineer whether mixing analog or digital in my world :-) Vibrations, magnetic media, ones and zeros, faders or a mouse may make a person adjust the parameters of expression but expression happens in some way. Some feel one is more expressive than the other. Great!! Do it how you do it.
I totally get what you are saying, all I was getting at is that, as a metaphor, "electric guitar vs acoustic guitar" is not an accurate comparison of the (IMO) greater difference between electronic drums and acoustic drums
#84
25th March 2011
Old 25th March 2011
  #84
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Best of both worlds

Fun stuff:

I have two kits, that I want to merg into one. Acustic, and Electric. I have about $12K into each kit. I have been playing drums for about 25 years and rand a recording studio for a few years.

To me, the reason this thread started is that electronic drums are like a synth to a piano. Take a person who learned on a synth, and place them next to a person who leraned to play keys on a grand piano. the piano player can hit the keys much harder. The same is true for drums. Electronic instriments lack the top end of dynamic range compaired to the acusitcal counterpart. This is typically called headroom when it come to electronics. I can achieve about 5 times the dynamic range with my real drums compaird to the electronic stuff. This is why drums always have to be compressed. But as you compress, the 56,128.32 velocity levels a human creates get included with the compression. Midi has 127 levels.

Setting up electronic drums to feel like an acustic kit is almost not posible, but I have spent tons of time and cash trying to acomplish exatly that.

If any show interest, Ill post the new setup after new puter shows up.

If any are shopping drum trigger, you need to check out the 2011 Namm show. lots of tew stuff out there.
#85
14th June 2011
Old 14th June 2011
  #85
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Wait, someone clarify to me what the proper verb to use when describing someone "playing electronic drums" since they are apparently not "really drumming" on them.



I've discussed at length with my bandmates that audiences get a bit annoyed when electric guitarists don't have the right to the volume their setup is outputting. They stand there looking bored and sad barely moving / playing with a jcm800 on 10.

On the other hand I appear as though I'm having a heart attack to project that level volume.


Electronic drums, of course we all know that they aren't necessarily simpler to play, playing along with loops and samples requires more accuracy, mixing things in is an art in and of itself. No different to using looper/sequencer/effects pedals. Look at Muse using a kaoss pad controller to augment their guitar solos. Who cares?


In the end, controlling all of the aspects of music is left up to the musician. Giving commands to a machine is still controlling it, of course you can blur lines in production where sometimes musicians are just "agreeing with" whatever the engineer/producer has decided, lines are blurred everywhere.

When I hit a trigger pad, i'm giving a machine instructions based on my velocity, positioning and timing. When I hit my analog drums I'm doing the same thing except the machine is now the drum.

I've heard amazing analog drums, amazing digital drums. In fact, I think it's harder to be impressive with obviously digital drums/programming. Producers that make interesting drumlines consistently are as valuable to me as someone who makes interesting drumlines on an analog set.



#86
14th June 2011
Old 14th June 2011
  #86
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A consumer would seldom know the difference between real drums, electronic drums, drum machine or drum loops.
#87
16th June 2011
Old 16th June 2011
  #87
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Well my experience - I have played drums for maybe 35 years - All my recorded work was on acoustic kits.

I have used edrums too -

I had the Simmons SDX 10/8/70 (monster kit which was about £9K in the 80`s), an Alesis DM5 with ddrum Pro Triggers, a ddrum4se with cast precision pads, and a TDW20 K Roland.

edrums serve a very useful purpose - if you need to practice and not annoy anyone forget the acoustic (Years ago my acoustic kit was in a sound proofed cellar and it was still too loud)..... edrums also offer a very easy route into home recording, and many professional results can be had.

I have noticed though that I played my ddrum4 with cast pads almost exclusively for 4 or 5 years, and when I went into the studio to record using my acoustic kit the transition was easy.....

I have since been playing mesh heads for maybe 3 or 4 years and the transition from mesh to acoustic is VERY hard.....I lack the stamina, gig fitness, and finesse, and have had to work to get it back. Thus I am now using the old ddrum again, with acoustic cymbals as a half way house.

Well that is my experience......
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#88
8th July 2011
Old 8th July 2011
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this thread is still going? lol
#89
10th July 2011
Old 10th July 2011
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takman View Post
this thread is still going? lol
It is now.
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