camber kick and ajax floor tom - help

[rope-a-dope]

Hi folks,

Any help would be appreciated.

Can't find any information on Camber drums; cymbals yes, but not drums.

There's a kick available at a nearby antique store - the badge simply says "Camber" and "japan" below. Black. 22'' Any info?

Also, an Ajax floor tom that, from what i gather on the net, is from 1960. The guy wants $60 cdn for the two drums together. Deal or firewood?

I'm not a drummer but wouldn't mind having a kit around if it came at a decent price.

Thanks.

[chrisso]

I think you can do better.
Ajax is very budget stuff.

Lookout for a beater old Ludwig or something.

[biggator6]

Agreed - firewood.

[dooglesnak]

Originally Posted by chrisso

I think you can do better.
Ajax is very budget stuff.

Lookout for a beater old Ludwig or something.

Ajax... Firewood? tutt You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
Ajax made by boosey and hawkes were very well made drums, with high quality thin 3ply vertical grain ash shells with solid beech re-rings. die cast hoops, Beautiful sounding drums. Ajax like a lot of the vintage stuff made in England; premier, carlton, john grey etc are very popular in the states. B&H did offer entry level drums, (edgeware) which in all honesty were often every bit as good as the top of thin line Ajax.

In the early 60s Ajax were also licensed to manufacture the english Rogers drums up into the late 60s to open up the Rogers brand into the european market. Many American rogers enthusiasts swear the English Rogers (which are basically Ajax drums with rogers hardware) are actually superior in sound to the USA rogers.

So for $60.. for the Ajax drum alone is not unreasonable even here in England where you can pick up Ajax stuff for pretty cheap.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by dooglesnak

Ajax... Firewood? tutt You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Did I say 'firewood'?
Err no, I absolutely did not.
As far as knowing what I'm talking about.
I'm English, I was playing drums in the 1970's and I owned both Ajax and English Rogers drums.
Never heard the concept that English Rogers drums were better than American before. I would have to disagree.
My actual comment was 'you can do better', which is a comment I repeat with confidence.

[dooglesnak]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Did I say 'firewood'?
Err no, I absolutely did not.
As far as knowing what I'm talking about.
I'm English, I was playing drums in the 1970's and I owned both Ajax and English Rogers drums.
Never heard the concept that English Rogers drums were better than American before. I would have to disagree.
My actual comment was 'you can do better', which is a comment I repeat with confidence.

I am also English and refurbish vintage drums for a living. I'm afraid I still have to disagree with you referring to Ajax as budget drums as they are most certainly not.

It's not a "concept" about them being better I was just using the opinion of a highly regarded Rogers collector as an example against your rather uneducated statement.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by dooglesnak

I was just using the opinion of a highly regarded Rogers collector as an example against your rather uneducated statement.

It can't possibly be 'uneducated' if it's a personal opinion based on actual experience.
We disagree. That's the nature of subjectivity.
Pricewise.... in the 1970's, both Ajax and English Rogers were 'budget' drums (fact).
That's all i said, except to add if I was buying vintage, I would choose something else, probably a recognised 'high end' kit from that period (Premier, Ludwig, Rogers USA?).
Now there have always been great sounding 'budget' drums too.
I think you just need to accept two things....
1) We have a normal difference of opinion regarding Ajax.
2) I never said they were 'firewood', I just stated a preference for a different brand.

[dooglesnak]

Originally Posted by chrisso

It can't possibly be 'uneducated' if it's a personal opinion based on actual experience.
We disagree. That's the nature of subjectivity.
Pricewise.... in the 1970's, both Ajax and English Rogers were 'budget' drums (fact).
That's all i said, except to add if I was buying vintage, I would choose something else, probably a recognised 'high end' kit from that period (Premier, Ludwig, Rogers USA?).
Now there have always been great sounding 'budget' drums too.
I think you just need to accept two things....
1) We have a normal difference of opinion regarding Ajax.
2) I never said they were 'firewood', I just stated a preference for a different brand.

1. In the 1970s Ajax and UK rogers didn't even make drums.
2. I didn't say "you" did say they were firewood (it was in response to the guy who said they are firewood)
3. Ajax were not and never have been budget drums..

You are however right; your lack of UK drum knowledge has nothing to do with the opinion of the rogers experts.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by dooglesnak

1. In the 1970s Ajax and UK rogers didn't even make drums.

But in 1972 my kit was made up of Ajax, UK Rogers and Olympic.
I note there is a passionate fanbase for Olympic drums too. That doesn't make them equal to Ludwig.
Whether they were in current production or not, when i was playing music in the 1970's, which included 4 years at music college and several professional engagements, Ajax and UK Rogers were perceived as inferior to Premier, Hayman, US Rogers, Ludwig, Camco, ASBA etc, etc.... Boosey and Hawkes largely supplied budget conscious and often not very good instruments to schools and government funded arts organisations and were also seen as less than ideal.

2. I didn't say "you" did say they were firewood (it was in response to the guy who said they are firewood)

So that's why you included my text and followed it with:

Originally Posted by dooglesnak

Ajax... Firewood? tutt You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

You are however right; your lack of UK drum knowledge has nothing to do with the opinion of the rogers experts.

Firstly, I thought you said 'a' as in one Rogers collector, where does 'experts' (plural) come into it.
Secondly, it's a difference of opinion, based at least on my part by playing the drums over an extended period of time. It is far from a 'lack of knowledge'.
What you don't seem to grasp is that two people can understand drums, can have experience playing those drums, and can come to different conclusions about said drums.
So you really like Ajax and UK Rogers?
Fine, end of argument.

[dooglesnak]

My you are pedantic Forget about firewood I was just responding to someone else's post and yours at the same time. The point is Ajax never have been a budget drum manufacturer. Though some of the stuff pre 60s can be pretty hit and miss.

If your kit has an Ajax and a UK Rogers drum then it was not made in 1972! UK Rogers licensed under B&H ceased production in 1968 and Ajax ceased production in 1970 when B&H started selling beverley drums with Prem shells.

And who said Olympic's were equal to Ludwigs anyway!

Just because you played drums for a long time doesn't mean you actually know anything about them

I just felt like I needed to respond to the two people in the discussion that were referring to Ajax as budget and firewood because both of you are wrong.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by dooglesnak

If your kit has an Ajax and a UK Rogers drum then it was not made in 1972!

I clearly never claimed they were.

Just because you played drums for a long time doesn't mean you actually know anything about them

Err.... ok.
I guess it's hard not to gain an understanding over a prolonged exposure of how they perform and sound though.

both of you are wrong.

We just have a different opinion (as I said).

[biggator6]

Since I was the one to say 'firewood'.. I'll also have the fun of telling dooglesnak to go look up who he's arguing with. (hint: he knows, um.. a LITTLE bit about what he's talking about).

[ivmike]

I call "troll" on dooglesnak; four posts ant ALL of them aimed at Chrisso.

And if he thinks he "knows more" than Chrisso about drums and such, I hope to hell that he's got the c.v. to back it up. He'd better be famous English drummer...

[surfspank]

Originally Posted by ivmike

I call "troll" on dooglesnak; four posts ant ALL of them aimed at Chrisso.

And if he thinks he "knows more" than Chrisso about drums and such, I hope to hell that he's got the c.v. to back it up. He'd better be famous English drummer...

Ironic from where I sit Mike. I prefer the 4 posts defending his belief in a piece of gear to Chrisso's 14,000+ many of which share negative opinions on gear he doesn't endorse. I'm of the thinking a person who loves playing drums will hit just about anything and find something good about the experience...at least I always do. So who exactly is the troll?

As for Ajax...when I was a kid our school band had two snare drums. An old Ludwig and an Ajax. This was well before we knew about gear and brand names and all of the BS that goes along with marketing. The Ajax was the one that we all fought over in the percussion section. It still is one of the better sounding snares I've ever played. Sure it might have been an anomaly, but hey, if you don't dig in the dirt you'll never find a gem.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by surfspank

Ironic from where I sit Mike. I prefer the 4 posts defending his belief in a piece of gear to Chrisso's 14,000+ many of which share negative opinions on gear he doesn't endorse.

That's BS my friend.
I don't 'endorse' anything.
I just speak based on long experience, and pass on tips from the many mistakes I've made.
Of the 14,000 posts I've made, very few are on the subject of drums.
It's likely you've never read many of my posts, and can't therefore claim 'many of which share negative opinions....'
I once expressed a negative opinion on DW drums, which apparently still irks you.

[dooglesnak]

LOL, all I came on here to say was ajax isn't budget or firewood and everyone seems to of got their nickers in a twist! Edgeware was the budget line under the manufacturer boosey and hawkes even still many of them were every bit as good as the top of the range Ajax line, Ajax made drums with a vertical grain (coined by DW as VLT)Vertical Low Timbre
Slight alterations in the shell's construction greatly influence sound. Some woods possess a vertical grain pattern that when tested, dramatically lowered the pitch of the shell. Thus, Vertical Low Timbre was discovered, for those players who prefer a lower overall tone while still maintaining maximum resonance and attack. The grain pattern of the plies in the shell has the outermost and innermost plies running vertically, and not the traditional horizontal. This vertical grain places lower tension on the shell, allowing it to vibrate more freely, and the sound travels up to four times faster along the grain than it does across it, resulting in the lowered fundamental pitch. Ajax drums were also made with die cast hoops and using thin high quality ash Shells providing a deep rich tone, huge sensitivity. The overall thickness of a drum shell affects how energy is transferred from the heads. This single factor has a profound effect on both the tonal characteristics and projection of the drum. Thinner shells allow the wood to fully resonate and maximize its total contribution to the overall sound. As a shell increases in thickness, it is louder but less resonant with more of its sound projected to the audience. Thin shells have become extremely popular on high end kits again in recent years (like DW) as their sound offers the best near-field or players experience. Grand Master's 3 ply shell enables relatively easy energy transfer from the heads to the shell...thus causing the shells to fully vibrate. This vibration imparts a very rich warm wood tone to the overall sound that can be most appreciated close to the kit while it's played. This effect is great for recording where miking techniques can capitalise on the warmth and natural tone of the instrument. Most manufacturers offer a thin shell on their high end drum series and Grand Master is a perfect presentation of what they are trying to achieve. The shell also features a solid 1 ply reinforcement ring at both top and bottom to help strengthen the shell and add support at critical head contact points for stability. Now, while Ajax may not be your cup of tea it doesn't automatically mean they are not good! I sell, restore and replicate vintage drums for a living, owning well over 150 vintage kits, from Ajax's to Oaklawn Camcos surely that has to count for something

[chrisso]

Fair enough.
Case closed.

[surfspank]

Originally Posted by chrisso

I think you can do better.
Ajax is very budget stuff.

Lookout for a beater old Ludwig or something.

This isn't the most glowing post on the planet and it has nothing to do with DW does it? Why bother posting generalizations like this? Have you ever hit an Ajax drum?
I'm suggesting there might be gear outside of the realm of your taste in brands, which I've played, that is worth the exploration. Certain Ajax snares...definitely.

[ivmike]

Originally Posted by surfspank

This isn't the most glowing post on the planet and it has nothing to do with DW does it? Why bother posting generalizations like this? Have you ever hit an Ajax drum?
I'm suggesting there might be gear outside of the realm of your taste in brands, which I've played, that is worth the exploration. Certain Ajax snares...definitely.

Are you the same surfspank on The Womb?

I suspect that Chrisso has hit or has had the opportunity to hit any drum out there, new or vintage, and I would never suggest that he's posting generalisations based on inexperience. Take my word; he's played a lot of drums in his life.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by surfspank

Have you ever hit an Ajax drum?

Didn't bother to read the rest of the thread huh? Why am I not surprised.
Earlier in the thread I described owning some Ajax drums.

In my first post in the thread, my main message was Ludwig of the same era are a better buy than Camber and ajax. I confidently stand by that advice.
Hundreds of great drummers in the late 1960's and and early 760's played Ludwig drums. Can't remember any playing Camber or Ajax, or if they did, it was a brief dalliance. I wonder why.
Unlike you, I spent a large part of my early years using and playing Boosey and Hawkes instruments. Nothing about them screamed class or pro to me.
Although I disagreed with 'dooglesnak's' scatter gun entry into this discussion, I can't really disagree with his last post. In his view, as a vintage drum expert and restorer, there is some merit to the Ajax brand. They are a forgotten gem perhaps.
Even so, my opinion stands..... which is, late 1960's Ludwig are a better buy.
Nothing really general or unglowing about it.
It's the opinion of someone who has played both Ajax and Ludwig.

[surfspank]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Didn't bother to read the rest of the thread huh? Why am I not surprised.
Earlier in the thread I described owning some Ajax drums.

In my first post in the thread, my main message was Ludwig of the same era are a better buy than Camber and ajax. I confidently stand by that advice.
Hundreds of great drummers in the late 1960's and and early 760's played Ludwig drums. Can't remember any playing Camber or Ajax, or if they did, it was a brief dalliance. I wonder why.
Unlike you, I spent a large part of my early years using and playing Boosey and Hawkes instruments. Nothing about them screamed class or pro to me.
Although I disagreed with 'dooglesnak's' scatter gun entry into this discussion, I can't really disagree with his last post. In his view, as a vintage drum expert and restorer, there is some merit to the Ajax brand. They are a forgotten gem perhaps.
Even so, my opinion stands..... which is, late 1960's Ludwig are a better buy.
Nothing really general or unglowing about it.
It's the opinion of someone who has played both Ajax and Ludwig.

1972 is a long time ago....I didn't find it very pertinent that you mentioned playing them because there wasn't much back up as to what you liked or disliked about the experience in comparison to the rest of the kit...so it's a pretty broad and vague statement which quotes a lot of gear use without actually saying anything. The problem is I did read it all and saw nothing qualitative to support the claim, so I think more is needed for clarification of your stance.
I don't really care who you are or how many drums you've hit in your life, I am simply asking what you personally, having hit Ajax as I have, didn't like about it...because I actually enjoy some of their snares...now why doesn't it surprise me that you have a problem simply answering it?

Mike....you know another surfspank? I was pretty sure I was the only one. Habs Fan Right?

[ivmike]

Originally Posted by surfspank

1972 is a long time ago....I didn't find it very pertinent that you mentioned playing them because there wasn't much back up as to what you liked or disliked about the experience in comparison to the rest of the kit...so it's a pretty broad and vague statement which quotes a lot of gear use without actually saying anything. The problem is I did read it all and saw nothing qualitative to support the claim, so I think more is needed for clarification of your stance.
I don't really care who you are or how many drums you've hit in your life, I am simply asking what you personally, having hit Ajax as I have, didn't like about it...because I actually enjoy some of their snares...now why doesn't it surprise me that you have a problem simply answering it?

Mike....you know another surfspank? I was pretty sure I was the only one. Habs Fan Right?

Why does Chrisso owe you any explanation? He didn't like them, no big deal, now move on.

And it is *entirely* relevant how many drums Chrisso has played and whom he has played with.

And you are the same guy from the womb....the hockey loudmouth "know-it-all"

[surfspank]

Originally Posted by ivmike

Why does Chrisso owe you any explanation? He didn't like them, no big deal, now move on.

And it is *entirely* relevant how many drums Chrisso has played and whom he has played with.

And you are the same guy from the womb....the hockey loudmouth "know-it-all"

Don't knock it Brother...every discussion needs one from time to time to keep things progressing and the knowledge flowing. Nothing wrong in my eyes with making somebody defend a negative stance. Maybe some good things are learned in the process. You've been known to hang around and correct my mistakes, so I've got no worries about spreading misinformation. I willingly admit I am wrong about things from time to time, so how can I possibly fall into the category of "Know It All"? I actually like you Mike. So I'll save the trash for where it belongs and where I freely sling it.

Everybody out there that has a chance to hit a decent Ajax snare is welcome to refute my opinion. Which is what I'm here doing with Chrisso, refuting his opinion on a brand name. Ajax snares are great in my experience. So they do make a drum worth checking out that might have the sound somebody is looking for.

[ivmike]

Originally Posted by surfspank

Don't knock it Brother...every discussion needs one from time to time to keep things progressing and the knowledge flowing. Nothing wrong in my eyes with making somebody defend a negative stance. Maybe some good things are learned in the process. You've been known to hang around and correct my mistakes, so I've got no worries about spreading misinformation. I willingly admit I am wrong about things from time to time, so how can I possibly fall into the category of "Know It All"? I actually like you Mike. So I'll save the trash for where it belongs and where I freely sling it.

Everybody out there that has a chance to hit a decent Ajax snare is welcome to refute my opinion. Which is what I'm here doing with Chrisso, refuting his opinion on a brand name. Ajax snares are great in my experience. So they do make a drum worth checking out that might have the sound somebody is looking for.

And Chrisso doesn't like them. So what. Time to move on.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by surfspank

I don't really care who you are or how many drums you've hit in your life, I am simply asking what you personally, having hit Ajax as I have, didn't like about it...because I actually enjoy some of their snares...now why doesn't it surprise me that you have a problem simply answering it?

Dude, seriously
I answered a question about an Ajax tom.
I just read all my posts in this thread again and where did I say I 'didn't like Ajax'?
I simply informed the OP that I thought Ludwig would be a better buy. I've stuck to that throughout the thread.
It's fine to disagree. I just don't appreciate the comments that I don't know anything, or am supposedly pushing stuff I endorse (I don't endorse anything).
So you really like Ajax snares? Great.
Ajax tom vs Ludwig tom - - - for me??? Answer = Ludwig.
Bye, bye.

[Nutbox]

[QUOTE=chrisso;7173497 Ajax and UK Rogers were perceived as inferior to Premier, Hayman, US Rogers, Ludwig, Camco, ASBA etc, etc.... Boosey and Hawkes largely supplied budget conscious and often not very good instruments to schools and government funded arts organisations and were also seen as less than ideal. [/QUOTE]

Noob here.

Got a little heated this thread but I would like to address the above.

I think this statement is correct in that there is such a perception but it makes no sense.

B&H did produce a budget line. They were called Edgware. They had fewer lugs than Ajax and that kind of thing which made them cheaper. But it is my understanding is that in the early 60s Ajax drums were more expensive than say Premier for instance and that was one of the things that kept Ajax sales down and helped in their ultimate demise.

It is inconceivable to me that Rogers who were known for their build quality and were referred to as "the Cadillac of drums" would come to the UK and pick some low-end outfit to produce their drums under licence. It makes no sense. On the contrary B&H produced some top end tubs.



In my youth I went from Carlton to Premier to Hayman and finally to English Rogers. I had numerous occasions to compare them with many makes including Ludwigs, and Rogers and I wouldn't have swopped.

Last few years I have been playing Rogers XP8s

latterly with an XP10 Superten


I sold them last week because I'm back with English Rogers.


My band love them.