I want to be a Motown drummer!

[Aaron Miller]

I have a small studio and play some guitar and bass. I want to learn drums so I can make my own music. I'm really interested in minimalist, groovy, drumming like you hear on some classic Motown albums. What catches my attention is that the beats seem pretty simple as far as arrangement and kit size are concerned, but are arranged and played with exceptional talent and love. I've been trying and trying to find a drummer who is capable and willing, but the talented ones always want to show off or do rock, punk, metal, etc., while others just don't have the talent or the love. So I want to learn.

My plan is to get just a kick, snare, and high hat. I don't care about fills and I have some tambourines, maracas, shakers, cabazas, two hands, etc. to fill my mixes out. The goal would be to learn how to do the simple things well and be able to make my own beats. Later, I could add other elements but for now I think it would be fun to just work on the simple things and enjoy making my own tunes.

Does this sound like an okay plan?

What kick, snare, and high hat would you suggest? I don't want to spend a lot of money but am serious about quality, meaning not buying something I will later want to replace.

Thanks!

[pan60]

look for a nice used set?
i just snagged a killer Phattie kit, CHEAP!!
lot of deals on some very nice vintage kits ( and some crappy vintage stuff so watch out ), some really killer deals to be had on some custom boutique stuff.

[BrendanM]

Dude, I salute you. Go man, go. Kick, snare, hat is the fundamental. Everything else is frosting.

[Snatchman]

Sounds like a very good plan....Yeah, I know about those drummers that wants to play every drum he has sit up.." I might as well hit it, it's sitting here ain't".....Good luck..!

[bkbirge]

Awesome, do it! Those players were/are jazzers so they've got the taste thing down. When you practice, hire a go go dancer and work off her moves for the true Motown thing. Drummers that have 20 drums but drop sticks and beats all over the place drive me crazy, seems I've run into a few of those lately. Get solid, that's the soul.

[Aaron Miller]

Yeah, I'd like buy used but I know so little about drums that I'm kind of afraid. I've recorded lots of drummers but I'm usually just trying to capture a good sound with what's available. I know that drummers experienced in tuning make my life easier and that some household items like tape, tissue paper, blankets, etc. help out too. I'm usually satisfied from an engineering perspective but as far as buying used drums, I'm afraid the only way I'd know what is good is if I play it and it happens to be in tune and in good working condition and I like what I hear. In that case I'd have a pretty good idea if I like the drum or not. However, I expect you don't encounter that much buying used. Rather, you need the ability to 'see the potential' in a drum, and make a decision on the spot knowing that with the righ tuning and a good head it will be just fine. I don't know enough about drums to do that.

Should I just buy new? Or maybe I should find an old cat that knows his drums and ask him to help me choose?

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

Yeah, I'd like buy used but I know so little about drums that I'm kind of afraid. I've recorded lots of drummers but I'm usually just trying to capture a good sound with what's available. I know that drummers experienced in tuning make my life easier and that some household items like tape, tissue paper, blankets, etc. help out too. I'm usually satisfied from an engineering perspective but as far as buying used drums, I'm afraid the only way I'd know what is good is if I play it and it happens to be in tune and in good working condition and I like what I hear. In that case I'd have a pretty good idea if I like the drum or not. However, I expect you don't encounter that much buying used. Rather, you need the ability to 'see the potential' in a drum, and make a decision on the spot knowing that with the righ tuning and a good head it will be just fine. I don't know enough about drums to do that.

Should I just buy new? Or maybe I should find an old cat that knows his drums and ask him to help me choose?

50% of what makes a drum sound good is the player and the other 50% is the heads and tuning, the last 50% is the drum itself.

If you stick with respectable brands, (and not the budget line) you should be fine buying used, as most 'problems' are visually obvious, or easily fixable, and rarely affect all the drums in a kit.

for a recording set, don't be worried about cosmetics or dings, and remember hardware things can be replaced very easily. Even bad bearing edges can be re-sanded.

Mainly stay away from any drum that has stains, swelling, mold or rust that might indicate water damage. Visually inspect to see the drum is not out of round or cracked. Bubbles or wrinkles in the head could mean that a lug loosened up, but could also mean the drum is warped.

I have bought plenty of used kits and never had a problem that affected more than one drum, and those were cheaply fixed. Playing the used drum set in some mom's garage won't really tell you anything anyway. But then again, a lot of stores don't have their new kits set up they way you would like either. Buy a decent set, get it home, clean it up and you can tune it any way you like. Any decent drum has 'potential'

[pan60]

to many percents their?

[Aaron Miller]

Okay, so I think I'm going to get a used or B-stock 5x14 Black Beauty. That's about $400 plus $40 for the P86 throw off which everybody seems to think is a big improvement. I'll need a stand too and maybe a new head depending on its condition. Haven't recorded one but have recorded an acrolite and it was great.

I'm going to spend lots of time learning how to tune it and hit it. This is going to be the 'wax on, wax off' phase of my drumming education, learning the fundamentals. In the meantime I'm going to look for a kick and high hat which I'll probably be able to afford in about a month.

[Frisbieinstein]

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

I'm going to spend lots of time learning how to tune it and hit it.

I like it, I like it.

[Tubthumper]

Aaron, check out the WorldMax Black Hawg snare. Black Beauty clone for a very good price. They record very well. George's carry them.

Your goals are awesome BTW. Motown rhythm = feel and groove. That, and very handy bass playing.

[carival]

You might consider not buying a whole kit. Just buy the separate pieces you need. You can easily find a 20" or 22" ludwig, slingerland, or premier bass drum and a 14" snare from the 60's for less $$ than a later full kit. You can learn how to tune, muffle, and play them. Don't hit em too hard. Well tuned vintage drums have geat tone when played quietly. They are more easily able to achieve the sound you seek with the proper approach. They will always be useful. Find some dirty old dark zildjan hi hat cymbals and you are set.

[Quint]

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

I have a small studio and play some guitar and bass. I want to learn drums so I can make my own music. I'm really interested in minimalist, groovy, drumming like you hear on some classic Motown albums. What catches my attention is that the beats seem pretty simple as far as arrangement and kit size are concerned, but are arranged and played with exceptional talent and love. I've been trying and trying to find a drummer who is capable and willing, but the talented ones always want to show off or do rock, punk, metal, etc., while others just don't have the talent or the love. So I want to learn.

My plan is to get just a kick, snare, and high hat. I don't care about fills and I have some tambourines, maracas, shakers, cabazas, two hands, etc. to fill my mixes out. The goal would be to learn how to do the simple things well and be able to make my own beats. Later, I could add other elements but for now I think it would be fun to just work on the simple things and enjoy making my own tunes.

Does this sound like an okay plan?

What kick, snare, and high hat would you suggest? I don't want to spend a lot of money but am serious about quality, meaning not buying something I will later want to replace.

Thanks!

Buy an old vintage kit from the 60's. They go for real cheap these days and will do the job great. Get an old Ludwig, Gretsch, Rogers, Sonor, etc. kit from that time period.

[beatsnblunts]

great advice here for the OP!
Yes, i'd go used and the most important part IS the drummer-150% in fact
Def check out the worldmax and even the Pearl sensitone black brass(new @239$us). I love ludwig but your paying for a name there too. TAYE Tour Pro or Studio Maple r great shells that r inexpensive-i'd stay clear of taye hardware though.

In addition to what others have mentioned, when checking out used drums, make sure the bearing edges are good and there's no ply separation. Also check that the drum is in round.
cheers,
S

[Aaron Miller]

Thanks for all the good advice everybody. I've been looking into some new and vintage 3 piece kits (kick, rack and floor toms). Will probably end up buying a snare this week, then start looking for the rest.

I set myself back a tad with a Squire P-Bass just the other day. Some guy was selling it for $80 and it had hardly been played so I couldn't resist. Fretboard and neck are decent. Put some flat wounds on it and will change out the pups and pots for some Fralins and it will sound good. This is going to be the other half of my motown rig.

[mrmike186]

No need to buy a whole kit. I like your idea of bass and snare only. The extra pieces might temp you so I would look for a decent Bass drum off Ebay and then a snare to go with it. The Black Beauty will work great but I am willing to bet a lot of those recordings used a Ludwig Supraphonic. A set of old 70's new-beat hihats go for cheap on ebay. No need to buy new.

[MikeCM]

A lot of those motown drummers got that feel and great tone by having great technique. A technique type that will allow them to pull the sound out of the drum rather than beating it out. Obviously jazz is a very "felt" genre but for a beginner, I would invest lots of time into developing proper stick technique.

[O.F.F.]

Drums 101:
The ability of a drummer is inversely proportional to the size of his kit.

Kick, snare and hat is alll you really need. Noodling on any instrument is bad, on drums it's torture.

[Washington]

Given the title of your thread, I was expecting a good laugh. So much for the moronic prejudice... I don't have anything to add to what's been posted already, but I'd like to express my admiration for your commitment and attitude. Good luck on your drum - or should I just say musical - endeavour.

[O.F.F.]

Originally Posted by MikeCM

A lot of those motown drummers got that feel and great tone by having great technique. A technique type that will allow them to pull the sound out of the drum rather than beating it out. Obviously jazz is a very "felt" genre but for a beginner, I would invest lots of time into developing proper stick technique.

Stick technique, does that include how to hold the sticks?
Asking because in old footage drummers hold one stick in their fist while the other (the one used predominantly on the snare) is held in a chop stick/pen-like fashion. These days almost every drummer holds both sticks in a fist. To my ears the former tend to show a lot more feel in their drumming than the latter. Could be coincidence but, not being a drummer myself, I could not say for sure.

[bkbirge]

Stick technique is stick control. Both ways of holding the sticks are fine. It's like german vs. french bow for you string players. Work on fundamentals, and how hard you hit the drums vs. cymbals. Practice to a metronome. Single strokes (hah!), paradiddle, etc.

Originally Posted by O.F.F.

Stick technique, does that include how to hold the sticks?
Asking because in old footage drummers hold one stick in their fist while the other (the one used predominantly on the snare) is held in a chop stick/pen-like fashion. These days almost every drummer holds both sticks in a fist. To my ears the former tend to show a lot more feel in their drumming than the latter. Could be coincidence but, not being a drummer myself, I could not say for sure.

[slapswan]

Originally Posted by bkbirge

Stick technique is stick control. Both ways of holding the sticks are fine. It's like german vs. french bow for you string players. Work on fundamentals, and how hard you hit the drums vs. cymbals. Practice to a metronome. Single strokes (hah!), paradiddle, etc.

+1 - I am a guitarist and have been able to adapt fairly quickly to bass, banjo, keys, etc, but having a harder time adapting to drums. I think the muscle coordination and control needed is very different from the other instruments I have played, and just takes some time. So attention to technique and fundamentals is a very good first step.

And kudos, by the way, to the OP! It sounds like you have a great goal and strategy. Best of luck!

[MikeCM]

Originally Posted by O.F.F.

Stick technique, does that include how to hold the sticks?
Asking because in old footage drummers hold one stick in their fist while the other (the one used predominantly on the snare) is held in a chop stick/pen-like fashion. These days almost every drummer holds both sticks in a fist. To my ears the former tend to show a lot more feel in their drumming than the latter. Could be coincidence but, not being a drummer myself, I could not say for sure.

Haha I understand the mix up... Chop stick fashion is called traditional grip and the fist method is called Mach or matched grip but it is hardly a fist. There is a strategic fulcrum between the pointing finger and thumb.. You also want to make sure your pinky stays on the stick because later on in your drumming career, the pinky can be extremely vital to developing fast speed with minimal energy output.

Bkbirge referred to stick control and this is very important as well. After you can do alternating single strokes at a decent speed... Say about 130-140bpm with decent technique, I'd say to start exploring what's called the moeller technique. The basic fundamental stroke (the whip) digs out soo much tone from the drum versus regular wrist strokes.

The most important thing to focus on when practicing is staying to the click. This is so cliché but in all seriousness, timing is the key to developing any sort of feel rather than monkey banging that most players do. When you're playing with the click though, the tendency is to be in time on only a few counts in the measure and usually people end up hitting count 1 and think they're being effect with the click. This is far from th truth. You need to make sure every eighth note you play matches up perfectly with the click.. Those Motown drummers can take the most simple beat.. Kick on 1 and 3, snare 2 and 4, and hats on eigth notes and make it feel so much sweeter than that. This stems from perfect timing and developing your "internal click".

I'm not sure how far along you are but hopefully this helps.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by O.F.F.

Stick technique, does that include how to hold the sticks?
Asking because in old footage drummers hold one stick in their fist while the other (the one used predominantly on the snare) is held in a chop stick/pen-like fashion. These days almost every drummer holds both sticks in a fist. To my ears the former tend to show a lot more feel in their drumming than the latter. Could be coincidence but, not being a drummer myself, I could not say for sure.

it's not a "fist!"

the rationale for the left hand being palm up in traditional grip was originally so that a drummer could march with the drum slung off to one side. (the left) and yet the left arm would be relaxed

With a matched grip, his left elbow would be sticking out into the next county. Very uncomfortable.

For a sit-down drummer, the drum set can be adjusted to accommodate either style. There might be some artistic rationale for having both hands be the same - or a different rationale for each hand to have a unique position, depending on what you are going for.

But if the left hand position in the traditional grip was physically "superior" in some way, some drummers would obviously try to play both hands that way, and no one ever does.

I think if you notice a general stylistic difference it has more to do with the early instruction of the drummer. Maybe he was in marching band as a kid. Or perhaps his first teacher was an old-school jazz guy.

[Washington]

Slightly OT, but maybe useful... I remember having attended a masterclass by Efrain Toro years ago. Wonderful guy. Most notably, he insisted that theory and notation forced us to "chop" music, and that he considered it absolutely wrong. His point was that organising rhythm around our system of dividing time (half, quarter, eighth notes etc) ultimately prevented "organic groove" to happen, because what defines groove does belong to what's in between the notes, to their relationship with one another, and that this had much more to do with a continuum than with chopping up time. In other words, drumming has much more to do with "unrolling a ribbon" than "fitting notes into little boxes". I never forgot the concept and it really enlightened my relation to groove, even if I don't play drums... If you listen to Uriel Jones, Benny Benjamin or Richard Allen, you really see what it's all about.

I think I heard Efrain Toro wrote a exercise book about it, some stuff any musician could practice just by hand-drumming on a table... anybody got some info on that?

[firby]

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

Yeah, I'd like buy used but I know so little about drums that I'm kind of afraid. I've recorded lots of drummers but I'm usually just trying to capture a good sound with what's available. I know that drummers experienced in tuning make my life easier and that some household items like tape, tissue paper, blankets, etc. help out too. I'm usually satisfied from an engineering perspective but as far as buying used drums, I'm afraid the only way I'd know what is good is if I play it and it happens to be in tune and in good working condition and I like what I hear. In that case I'd have a pretty good idea if I like the drum or not. However, I expect you don't encounter that much buying used. Rather, you need the ability to 'see the potential' in a drum, and make a decision on the spot knowing that with the righ tuning and a good head it will be just fine. I don't know enough about drums to do that.

Should I just buy new? Or maybe I should find an old cat that knows his drums and ask him to help me choose?

You Rang ?

I am an old cat.

If you can, get an old slingerland kit with sparkle on it or an old rogers kit or a gretsch or an old ludwig. Try out the snare that came with it (generally a wooden thin maple affair) listen to hear if it has it or not. If not you can get by with an old ludwig vistalite snare and some quality coated heads. Here, I get that sound out of remo or aquarian coated heads. Stick with wooden drum kits for the sound you are after. Thinner might be better in this scenario so less Sonor ... and more like a Gretsch or what has been mentioned. Good cheap useful hihats are new beats. For what you want get them small maybe 13s and pitched kind of high. Don't for get a ride that has a nice bell sound. Like an old zildgian A. Zild A's would make good hats as well.

Get a pair of 5b drum sticks and a pair of small ones too like a 4a or so. I play alot of that style with Vic Firth swingers and combos. Use the 5bs to practice rudiments (snare) and the smaller sticks to play grooves. Get a real drummer to watch your hands for awhile while you are starting so that you don't develop any nasty habits.

That's a good start. The world needs more players with style and timing. Do it well and you will always have musicians to play with.

Peace and good luck.

[foamboy]

Originally Posted by Quint

Buy an old vintage kit from the 60's. They go for real cheap these days and will do the job great. Get an old Ludwig, Gretsch, Rogers, Sonor, etc. kit from that time period.

Well, IF you REALLY want to sound like a Motown drummer,this is GOOD advice!

However, while I appreciate the OP's approach,don't expect too much and I don't mean that disrespectfully. What I am saying is, everybody has their own internal groove and feel and I think if you aspire to capture "the feel" that is good enough. I know a LOT of drummers who want to be just like_______(fill in the blank) and they NEVER get there because they ARE their own thing. So work on the "feel" and the philosophy and NOT the emulating exactly part.

Good luck!

And btw, for those of you who bash drummers who play big kits,....wanking is NOT exclusive to drummers!!!!! Pedals and seven string guitars in the wrong hands and feet are JUST as annoying!!!!!

Oh,and forget about tuning EVERY 2 phucking minutes!!!!!


fb

[MikeCM]

Originally Posted by Washington

Slightly OT, but maybe useful... I remember having attended a masterclass by Efrain Toro years ago. Wonderful guy. Most notably, he insisted that theory and notation forced us to "chop" music, and that he considered it absolutely wrong. His point was that organising rhythm around our system of dividing time (half, quarter, eighth notes etc) ultimately prevented "organic groove" to happen, because what defines groove does belong to what's in between the notes, to their relationship with one another, and that this had much more to do with a continuum than with chopping up time. In other words, drumming has much more to do with "unrolling a ribbon" than "fitting notes into little boxes". I never forgot the concept and it really enlightened my relation to groove, even if I don't play drums... If you listen to Uriel Jones, Benny Benjamin or Richard Allen, you really see what it's all about.

I think I heard Efrain Toro wrote a exercise book about it, some stuff any musician could practice just by hand-drumming on a table... anybody got some info on that?

I agree with most of this but you have to realize the drummer needs some degree of an internal click. While some people will take what I said way too far (playing mechanically, robotic, zombie-like) all of those decent drummers play in time. If a beat is swung, obviously there will be spaces between the notes. Even in some pocket felt songs, the beats are way laid back and played almost behind the beat. Most drummers don't have that ability right when they first sit down on without understanding a little bit about timing. We're all from different thoughts so if you don't see it that way, that's cool.

[drpeacock]

Aaron,

what a coincidence! I'm getting ready to do exactly the same thing you are doing for exactly the same reasons with exactly the same inspiration and approach.

I don't know if you have considered the Custom Classic Jazz sets, but here are a couple of links in case you are not familiar:

YouTube - ‪Custom Classic Birch 4pc Jazz Drum Set‬‎

Sigler Music | Custom Classic Pro Birch Jazz Drum Set - Sigler Music Center

They are gaining quick popularity and comparing favorably with kits like the Gretch Catalina. Other's comments notwithstanding about resale value, etc., I decided that I wanted to get the best sounding kit I could afford for this experiment and I think it might actually be this CC kit.

You may already have your kit by now but in case you don't, there's another option for you!

[russelldl]

-Ludwig acrolite snare drum off ebay
-60's era Ludwig 3-ply bass drum off ebay (I'd think 20" works for this situation and would be cheap)
-60's or 70's Zildjian A New Beat hihats off ebay.
plus stands and pedals
Probably about $400-$500 and you're good to go.

Then you just gotta practice. Feel is not easy to master.