Billy Cobham Video , Swish ??? What is this ?

[SubwayRocket]

Anyone know what this cymbal is ? I'm not a drummer but a Billy Cobham fan. My drummer friend is not exactly sure what this cymbal is. Here is a link to the montreaux jass fest '76 , Billy Cobham , the cymbal directly to the left
side of his face, at face level, upside down and on it's side. We think it's a Swish knocker or similar. Also can't tell if it has the rivets in it though I can see about 8 rivet holes by pausing the vid.
Any help appreciated, Thanks much !

YouTube - Bill Cobham / George Duke Band - Juicy


Billy Cobham , George Duke , Red Baron , Juicy

[memphisindie]

Man, I could not make a cymbal with rivets out in that vid, but, zildjian used to make a "sizzle ride" I think it was a 22", had rivets. I love em.

[SubwayRocket]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

Man, I could not make a cymbal with rivets out in that vid

I can see about 8 rivet holes by pausing the video at 4:34 thru around 4:38 mins , got a close-up of that cymbal. Drag the cursor there to skip right to it. Cant see if they are just the holes, or the rivets are thru the back since he's got it inverted anyway...
Thanks Much any Help !!!

YouTube - Bill Cobham / George Duke Band - Juicy

[Rolf Fiesel]

Zildjian Avedis 22 inch Swish Knocker A0315 22 inch


Buy Zildjian Avedis 22 inch Swish Knocker A0315 22 inch | China & Effect Cymbals | Musician's Friend

[SubwayRocket]

We thought it might be that, but that one looks like about 20 rivets,
Billy's looks like about 8 rivets from what I can see. Whenever he uses
this cymbal (like on Spectrum; stratus) the sizzle has a very short decay. . .
I'm thinking that's due to him having it vertical ??? or is it b/c only
8 rivets ??? It has more of a shwaaa shwaaa shwaaa sound than sizzle.
Thanks much !!!

[Grumblefoot]

Zildjian swishs have 1 rivet per inch so 20 inch swish equals 20 rivets.

[foamboy]

Well I tried to watch the video but Youtube is really slow right now and I don't feel like waiting. So,I did not actually see the cymbal in question,but I can tell you that back in the day Zildjian did have a couple of riveted rides but most players thought it was overkill,so drummers made their own and Billy Cobham was one of the first proponents of trying DIY mods. So,my guess is that this is probably a cymbal that he or his tech drilled some holes into and put his own rivets. Back in the "day" music stores ACTUALLY sold these rivets seperately and if I am not mistaken,Zildjian actually sold packages of 4 rivets to do your own thing.

Also,in later years,some companies tried to come up with less destructive solutions. This one comes to mind......

R22 | Pro-Mark Drumsticks, The World's Finest Sticks™



foamboy

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Rolf Fiesel

Zildjian Avedis 22 inch Swish Knocker A0315 22 inch

I'm pretty sure that's what Cobham used.

[Drum9uy]

could have been a prototype with less rivets, I own the 22" current model, really cool sound.

[drumzealot]

Originally Posted by Grumblefoot

Zildjian swishs have 1 rivet per inch so 20 inch swish equals 20 rivets.

Correct. Swish with rivets is called a Knocker. I bought one from Louise Bellson in the 80's. They sound HUGE!!! Too huge for me. After getting over the joy of meeting Bellson and gegtting a cymbal he used, I found little use for it. Held on to it for 20 years and sold it.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Drum9uy

could have been a prototype with less rivets

They are easy to remove anyway.

[SubwayRocket]

Anyone get a chance to watch that vid ??? It only has 8 holes and doesn't
sound overpowering, im thinking maybe because he has it off the side out of the direct line of sight of mics ??? I listened to clips of that new Zildjian 22"
Swish Knocker, It sounds nothing like Billy's. Any drummers know if it's
because he has it hanging sideways, making the rivet sizzle decay faster ???
He's getting more a "shwaaa shwaaa sound than one the zildjian site mp3.

Pausing the video at 4:34 thru around 4:38 mins , you get a close-up of that cymbal. Drag the cursor there , you can skip right to it.
Thanks Much any Help !!!

YouTube - Bill Cobham / George Duke Band - Juicy

[memphisindie]

Billy knocks the snot out of them and that can make them sound like they are decaying quite quickly. It's probably an old 22" sizzle ride, that's what I remember hem being called in the 70's.
The old ones didn't have a rivet every inch. Maybe 8 of them.

[chrisso]

It sounds like my Swish Knocker.
Especially when mounted upside down and at a steep angle.
I can't see the holes in detail on my computer, but it could be that Zildjian made him a Swish with fewer rivet holes.
The rivets tend to fly out when you smack the cymbal, so you could easily end up with an 8 rivet cymbal, even with the regular number of holes.
Anyway, that's my best guess.
I've watched the video twice now, and saw Billy live in concert around this time period (late 70's).
I bought a swish knowcker in the 80's just to achieve this similar sound, and I'm a Zildjian endorser.
However, short of asking Cobham in person or tracking down someone at Zildjian who knows the answer I can't be 100% sure I'm right.

[memphisindie]

I'll crack open my book and ask his son in law to find out.

[SubwayRocket]

Hey you guys, Thanks so much for the help ! I think you are right... the
steep angle has something to do with it . I'm not a drummer but I have
a 70's rogers kit here in my home studio, I can play AC/DC patterns and
fills and keep a beat if I keep it simple. I love drums and can really
appreciate great drummers; Cobham, Colaiuta, Wackerman, Bonham,
Marotta, Older and newer guys, more basic guys, ect, on and on . . .
I appreciate them so much more when I sit down and
try to play them, listening back to my inconsistent Kick hits,
and imprecise Hi-Hat work, Lol !!!

[Squeefoo]

Billy Cobham had a 33 inch thin china type that he used on his first couple of albums (Stratus, Crosswinds). It was made sometime in the 30's, probably a K, and was given to him by Louie Bellson.

I read that in an interview in Modern Drummer in the early 80's.
(with who I don't recall)

I can't find anything on the net about it.

I always loved that cymbal sight unseen....

Hope this helps!

[dcrigger]

Originally Posted by Squeefoo

Billy Cobham had a 33 inch thin china type that he used on his first couple of albums (Stratus, Crosswinds). It was made sometime in the 30's, probably a K, and was given to him by Louie Bellson.

I read that in an interview in Modern Drummer in the early 80's.
(with who I don't recall)

I can't find anything on the net about it.

I always loved that cymbal sight unseen....

Hope this helps!

33? That would a massively large cymbal (even a 26" is huge) - RU sure you don't mean a 22?

Anyway - to the OP -

I'm really quite sure that's a 22" (or 20") Zildjian Swish - I have two from that era, with that same kind of hole pattern (both 20's) and they are both stamped simply - "SWISH". And they very much make all the sounds that Billy makes with them not only here, but on all the MO solo records.

That's why I bought the first one. :-)

Great cymbals - and far more versatile than most any Chinas.

David

[Squeefoo]

Originally Posted by dcrigger

33? That would a massively large cymbal (even a 26" is huge) - RU sure you don't mean a 22?

Anyway - to the OP -

I'm really quite sure that's a 22" (or 20") Zildjian Swish - I have two from that era, with that same kind of hole pattern (both 20's) and they are both stamped simply - "SWISH". And they very much make all the sounds that Billy makes with them not only here, but on all the MO solo records.

That's why I bought the first one. :-)

Great cymbals - and far more versatile than most any Chinas.

David

Yes David -I'm sure it was a 33" given to him by Bellson. Somebody over at Modern Drummer might remember, or can look it up.

The swish in the video is likely a 22". If you pause the vid you can see the difference in size from the stick to the swish.

I have a 20" I bought sometime in the late 70's with 6 rivet holes -thankfully it survived my Narada Walden phase.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by dcrigger

That's why I bought the first one. :-)

Great cymbals - and far more versatile than most any Chinas.

Agreed.
I bought one at the same time.
Still have it, still use it regularly.

[dcrigger]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Agreed.
I bought one at the same time.
Still have it, still use it regularly.

Me too.

I can be pretty inclined to work a swish into just about in setting, style or genre... if I can get away with it. :-)

David

[Gearbot]

Hi guys,

Apologies for bumping an old thread. We received an email about this:

Hi Gearslutz,
I was reading a forum about the mystery cymbal that Billy Cobham plays on his left side about 30 years ago. In an 1982 Zildjian Ad, Billy states that he used an 22" China Boy played upside down as he saw it used in Finland at an outdoor concert. It was not the Swish Knocker which everyone thought, that is a new cymbal and wasn't around then.
I had to let someone know, I couldn't help myself after reading so many incorrect responses. I have been playing the drums for a little over 45 years, I only play Zildjian. I have a collection of about 30 cymbals and as you can guess by my age that I don't use a computer very often that is the reason why I didn't want to register as a member, but I do enjoy the articles from time to time.

[Squeefoo]

This is Billy Cobham's secret forum:

Free forum : BC's

He calls himself Boomer on there.

[chrisso]

Hmm, I actually think the China Boy is a newer cymbal and the Swish Knocker was around at the end of the 70's, my drum teacher played one.

[relayer]

I think Chris is correct, that it's a Swish Knocker, albeit with fewer rivets. A prototype or custom build maybe? I have both a Swish Knocker and a K China Boy, and there's no mistaking the two in sound or appearance. I've heard the story about Bellson giving Cobham the 33" Swish, and while that may be true, it's definitely not the one in the video.

Steve