Should I cut down a 22x20 kick to 22x16?

[pw2005]

I have a 22x20 kick and am thinking of cutting it down to 22x16 . I am getting OK sounds with it but would like to know if anyone has found the 22x16 to record better.

Peter

[sniperschool]

without knowing what kind of kit/kick sound you are trying for that's a hard question to answer
what is it about the sound of the 22" that you're not 100% on?

[Dag Elias]

i would go 18 deep if your into more rock!
but to me,a 22 is not a very good size of a kick drum for rock.
much prefer a 20 or a 24.

[joeq]

I was in the local drum shop just today and I was struck by how many of the newest kits had really long kick drums. I mean like longer than they are wide.

So I dunno. You may be cutting down your drum just as longer drums are coming into style.

[talkshowman]

Originally Posted by joeq

I was in the local drum shop just today and I was struck by how many of the newest kits had really long kick drums. I mean like longer than they are wide.

So I dunno. You may be cutting down your drum just as longer drums are coming into style.

I don't really agree with that sentiment (but you are of course entitled to your opinion...and I shall fight to the death to defend it). Longer kicks and shallow toms have been en vogue for a few years now, and the consensus I'm finding is that it really is more an aesthetic choice than for any sonic reason, and that in fact a longer drum is harder to get a good solid sound out of.

I'm no physics major, but I think it involves the fact that the more air in the drum, the harder it is to get the shell and heads resonating sympathetically (the very reason shallow toms are sonically pleasing, they're more responsive). For live sound this is fine as MR FOH can eq to hell out of it and turn it into the gut-busting, eye-shaking kick we are now familiar with. But for recording, you really shouldn't go further than 16" (imho).

Bonham used really shallow kicks by today's comparisons, like 14". Admittedly they were 24" wide at their smallest, but sounds like thunder, donut? So my tuppence on this? If you leave it to someone who knows what they're doing and won't butcher the job or cock up your bearing edges, then go for it! I wish I had the balls or funds to send off some toms to get shortened, but c'est la vie. Keep us posted if you got for it.

EDIT - Also, this long kick fad is just that, a fad. Cannon kicks are tomorrow's concert toms and square shaped drums (the dimensions I mean)

[joeq]

Originally Posted by talkshowman

I don't really agree with that sentiment (but you are of course entitled to your opinion...and I shall fight to the death to defend it).

well I did not mean to appear to be advocating longer drums, it was just something I noticed just yesterday, hours before I saw this thread.

Longer kicks and shallow toms have been en vogue for a few years now, and the consensus I'm finding is that it really is more an aesthetic choice than for any sonic reason

that just goes to show you how out of touch I am, I thought this was the "new" trend because yesterday was the first time I noticed a bunch of drums with those kicks.

[pw2005]

Originally Posted by talkshowman

I don't really agree with that sentiment (but you are of course entitled to your opinion...and I shall fight to the death to defend it). Longer kicks and shallow toms have been en vogue for a few years now, and the consensus I'm finding is that it really is more an aesthetic choice than for any sonic reason, and that in fact a longer drum is harder to get a good solid sound out of.

I'm no physics major, but I think it involves the fact that the more air in the drum, the harder it is to get the shell and heads resonating sympathetically (the very reason shallow toms are sonically pleasing, they're more responsive). For live sound this is fine as MR FOH can eq to hell out of it and turn it into the gut-busting, eye-shaking kick we are now familiar with. But for recording, you really shouldn't go further than 16" (imho).

Bonham used really shallow kicks by today's comparisons, like 14". Admittedly they were 24" wide at their smallest, but sounds like thunder, donut? So my tuppence on this? If you leave it to someone who knows what they're doing and won't butcher the job or cock up your bearing edges, then go for it! I wish I had the balls or funds to send off some toms to get shortened, but c'est la vie. Keep us posted if you got for it.

EDIT - Also, this long kick fad is just that, a fad. Cannon kicks are tomorrow's concert toms and square shaped drums (the dimensions I mean)

Thanks,and that is more in line with what I was thinking. I am getting pretty good sounds with it but I think it will have less of that "balloon" sound on the internal mic if I cut it down. I actually really like 22x17 but the lugs position will mean that I should cut it down to 22x16.

I asked this because I have found that 10x8 and 12x8 or 9" toms record so much easier than deeper toms in my experience,so I would think that certain kick sizes work better.

I did some tuning in the studio for the new Limp Bizkit record. They had a 22x20 kick but the engineer wanted a moving blanket in it. Once the kick is that muffled it makes less difference what the depth is,but I prefer it to have some resonance. I wanted to put Emad heads on it but he is endorsed by Remo. I have emad heads on mine and it sounds great in the room. I just think it would a better internal sound with a shallower depth,and probably sound equally good in the room. I would think that the pitch bend would change depending on the depth.

Peter Warren

[chrisso]

Did the engineer want a moving blanket in it, or over it?

16 x 22" would be OK.
I don't think the depth makes a ton of difference to the end sound, not as much as the diameter.

[pw2005]

He wanted the moving blanket in it. He had a Sennheiser 602 inside very close to the batter head and a U 47 outside. There were Neumann and Coles room mics as well.
I have found that the 602 adds a lot more bass than other kick mics and the drums seem to need to be more muffled. It still sounded great with EQ and compression but in my much less expensive home studio it seems to work better with a bit more resonance in the kick itself.

Peter

[chrisso]

I'm not really a fan of the EMAD, nor a fan of bass drums that are too resonant.

I've never really modified anything either.
If a drum doesn't sound right I generally sell it and buy something I like without too much fiddling.
I realise this is rather uneconomic when you are talking about a whole kit and only one drum is less than stellar.
Problem is, you have no guarantee the shortening of the drum will solve your problem.

[twelveight]

Ultimately it depends on what sound you want.

Firstly, what kind of drum is it? It may be cheaper to just buy another one.

This will be a fairly costly procedure; they will have to cut the shell, recut a bearing edge and redrill hardware holes. Easily a couple hundred if you don't want it butchered.

Personally, I love 14" depth. I can't stand anything more than 16".

I've looked at new kits and almost everything has 18"+ deep BD's. I was going to order a custom kit at one point, just to get a 14" but the waiting period was too long, so I'm "stuck" with my Greatch RB's.

Aside from the chambered (basket ball) and less direct sound, they feel like pillows to me.

You can always just get a different BD for recording and have both. Lots o cats mix and match drums in the studio.

[pw2005]

I did cut it down and I like the sound and feel of it. It is punchier and slightly higher pitched when recording. It works better with the mic just in the sound hole where as before I had to put it halfway inside the drum to get the same sound.

I was fortunate that my friend is an excellent carpenter and did it as a favor. He is available for reasonable fees in the San Francisco area to do bearing edges.

Peter

[talkshowman]

Originally Posted by pw2005

I did cut it down and I like the sound and feel of it. It is punchier and slightly higher pitched when recording. It works better with the mic just in the sound hole where as before I had to put it halfway inside the drum to get the same sound.

I was fortunate that my friend is an excellent carpenter and did it as a favor. He is available for reasonable fees in the San Francisco area to do bearing edges.

Peter

Awesome news, dude! Glad you got the sound you were after without having to shell out too much dough, and without f***ing up the drum.

[pw2005]

Here are the results with the exact same EQ and compression settings:
22x20
4shared.com - music and mp3 sharing - download 22x20 kick.wav
22x16
22x16 kick.wav

I would definitely use different settings for the shorter depth but did this just to show how much difference it makes. I think a 22x17 or even 18 would be OK but 22x20 is a weird size.

Peter