Frustrated - What To Do - My Rant

[Doran Palmer]

Need a release I suppose, I've posted a thread on here about Quantizing drum tracks and the engineers insistence, so we did one, didn't like it, so that is a no go, now this last Sunday I'm in the studio to finish the drums on the remaining songs, and the engineer states he needs all the drum tracks done over because my tuning was all wrong and he can't work with them.

So, while setting up in the drum room I decided to go ahead and replace a couple of the heads on the 10 and 12" toms and re-tune with a drum dial, this took about an hour.

After I've completed all the tuning and setting up he states the drums are to bright and out of tune, so back through the tuning again, which they where pretty dead on. I played them for a bit and then checked tuning, made a few adjustments, and again, wrong tuning for him. So now 3 hours into my studio time nothing is getting done and really starting to get pissed off. So I handed him my tuning key, and the drum dial and said go for it.

I then proceeded to leave the facility and get away. When I returned, he said all fixed and he was ready. I set down to play and the kit sounded like a cardboard box, the tension was so loose they were virtually unplayable, I'm thinking this guy has got to be freaking joking, is he screwing with me or have I been tuning all wrong for the past 20 years.

I actually just grabbed up all my stuff, and left. Was this the wrong thing to do, its totally bothering me today, and not sure what to do, I'll see the rest of the band this evening, but haven't told them, and, we have a lot of money tide up in this studio. Should we just request he give us all our tracks and move on to another facility or try and work something out. I know you guys have said, and we know this, we are the client but for some reason he just doesn't seem to be able to mic and record drums. I've never had this issue ever. Maybe he hates his job, I don't know. But, I'm frustrated and needed to get this off my chest and see what you guys thought. I'm to the point now, I don't want to deal with this guy at all.

[BLUElightCory]

Sounds like your engineer has a bad ear (or you do ) or he's trying to milk you guys for time. Are you paying hourly? If the drum sound was bugging him he should have asked you to fix it before you guys started tracking. If you're happy with the drum sounds, he should be cooperative about moving on and finishing the process. HE is working for YOU.

[Doran Palmer]

Originally Posted by BLUElightCory

Sounds like your engineer has a bad ear (or you do ) or he's trying to milk you guys for time. Are you paying hourly? If the drum sound was bugging him he should have asked you to fix it before you guys started tracking. If you're happy with the drum sounds, he should be cooperative about moving on and finishing the process. HE is working for YOU.

I asked this same question, he basically gave me the answer of, it will take to much to time to edit them. I'm thinking what editing, the tone is what the band is looking for and we are paying for this anyway. What is the issue. I know the guy is very much into metal, we are not, never even recorded anything metal, so don't know if his ability for recording drums has this influence, or why it would make any difference, but for me, just please record what we are asking. Maybe he is pissed because we didn't want them quantized. Just seems like he has no interest in working with me. The other guys in the band, don't seem to have a problem.

[chrisso]

You could both be in the right.
It's clear the engineer isn't the right man for your project however, unless you agree with the approach he wants to take.
The cheapest thing to do is find an engineer you do see eye to eye with.

In the meantime, if it takes you an hour to change two tom heads you might benefit from a tuning lesson from a local pro drummer.

[RiKi]

Originally Posted by chrisso

You could both be in the right.


In the meantime, if it takes you an hour to change two tom heads you might benefit from a tuning lesson from a local pro drummer.

...

[glissando]

You should have tried the low tuning...you didn't even give it a chance...that kind of tuning can be very effective...it can also be ridiculous....but you should've given him a chance....here's what I'm getting....your not the greatest drummer in the world...AND THAT's COOL....the engineer is looking for great drum sounds...isn't getting it but believes there is a way to get it and is trying every trick in the book...now you may think he's being an asshole, but it just sounds like he really wants to do a good job....the bad part about that is that it's taking a long time...I would say you made the incorrect decision by packing up and leaving...and lose that pride....also...if he doesn't make you guys sound good, go somewhere else.

[Dr. Mordo]

Years ago my band recorded with an engineer who insisted that by running the drums at a tighter tension we were making a huge mistake (the drums were very Bonham-esque). He insisted that we at least de-tune the floor tom. So he went in a tuned it, and when we heard it the lugs were tuned finger tight, the drum had no resonance.

Some people are convinced that is how a drum should sound, and you can't reason with them. They obviously lack the ears to hear that many, many kits are not tuned that way, and that in fact almost none were before the 80s. If they can't hear that they are wrong, you surely can't convince them.

But that said, the floppy toms can be a cool sound in the right application.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Dr. Mordo

Some people are convinced that is how a drum should sound

I think drums can be set up to sound great in hundreds of different ways.
I tend to agree with the previous poster that nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I've learnt way more about great drum sounds from recording engineers than from other drummers, or by figuring it out myself.
As far as recording drums are concerned, I find producers and engineers are a wealth of knowledge. And I've exploited that knowledge many times, where it might have been easier to pack up my drums and leave.

Having said all that, I have done a couple of projects where the engineer obviously had a vision for the drum performance and sound, and there was clearly no way I could fulfill that vision adequately, for example because they wanted the drums to sound like Gadd or Bonham, and I am neither of those guys. In those cases there is nothing you can do but agree to disagree and soldier on, or agree to call it quits and find a new studio collaboration.

[Dr. Mordo]

Yeah, I guess I should say that almost anyone who could possibly be called an engineer has better ears than I do. The reason I hang around here is to learn from those dudes. The aforementioned dude was just a bit of a tool.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Dr. Mordo

The aforementioned dude was just a bit of a tool.

Why?

Maybe he was trying hard to get the drums sounding as good as they could.
Of course we'll never know and there are always two sides to every story, but in my early days I was regularly subjected to a roasting by recording engineers and producers.
I thought I could play and had a hot sound.
Gradually I realised how wrong I was.
I don't think drummers are born to record, nor do they have the ultimate recording sound on their first studio date.
Some pick up the skills and experience quickly, others (like me) can take a few years.
Either way, I learned to question my own skills before deciding it was all the engineer's fault.

[uncle duncan]

The drummer I use (35 years experience) tunes his kit high for live work, and low for recording. It's all about how the drums work in the mix. High tuned drums are ringy and thin sounding, low tuned drums are fat and luscious.

Ideally, when you go into a studio, you bring along a few reference CDs of established acts that have your sound, or a sound in your ballpark. Then the engineer knows what you're shooting for. Without this reference, the engineer is going to go for what he's had success with in the past.

If it's not too late, I would suggest trying his tuning on a couple of tracks that include the whole band, so you can hear the drums in the mix, rather than by themselves. You might be pleasantly surprised. The trick is listening the mix as a whole, rather than just your drums. This is why mix engineers prefer not to mix with the whole band giving instructions, because each band member is only focused on his own instrument.

It's not about you and your drums, it's about the big picture.

[Dr. Mordo]

It's been 13 years since that session, and everything I have learned since then has made me very secure that he was in fact a tool. The reason he was a tool is because he could only accept that a drumkit should be tuned sloppy loose and that any other sound was wrong. I would think that anyone who has spent time in a studio would know that there isn't one 'correct' sound, but apparently not.

In terms of tuning, there are a wide range of great drum tunings that have been recorded. Bonham tuned very high, Matt Cameron tunes very high. Tony Williams ran his drums very tight, and fit perfectly on fusion recordings with a full rock band. Bill Ward has a very thin and high pitched sound on the early Sabbath records, which are some of the heaviest records ever. Meanwhile there are guys like Ringo, Gadd, and a multitude of other rock drummers who run heavy heads super loose with some kind of muffling. All can be great in the right application.

I absolutely agree that ultimately what matters is the big picture. The question is how big of an impact it'll have on the big picture for your drums to sound the way you want them to sound versus how the engineer wants them to sound. Is one right and the other wrong, or are they simply alternative sounds that will both work? Something to remember here is that some engineers have a template that they know will sound pretty good. So they try to press every band into that template. The upside is that it will probly sound pretty good, but the downside is that it may not sound like your band because you are using different gear and tunings than you normally use. So, do you want it to sound as good as that guy can make it sound, or do you want to sound like your band - that is the question.

About the OP's situation - if the drums were out of tune, that's one thing. If they are just tuned differently then the engineer is used to, then maybe it's time for him to expand his horizons. If you and your band are paying the bills, you need to be more assertive about what you want. If you trust the engineer, you should at least try his suggestions. But, at the same time, if you want to hear your kit come out of the speakers, tuned the way you like it, you need to tell him. If he can't capture the sound of your drums, and if the band is supportive, I'd find somebody else to record the album.

Honestly, my situation and the OP's are almost identical. Our session was basically for a album length demo, so we just let it go and conceded that the floor tom would sould terrible (really not a huge concession to make on a demo). If what you are doing is going to be released, I'd be firm on my expectations. In some ways the critical issue here is the band. Will they support moving on to another engineer or do they like this guy? The OP states that he has been playing for 20 years. I'd say that's enough time to know how you want your kit to sound, and assuming you are chipping in for the recording I think you have the right to tell the engineer what you expect.

If there is one instrument that is consistently misunderstood, it is the drums. Sometimes as a drummer you have to fight for a good sound. Many people think the drums should sound like a drum machine. This is why it's crucial to hire an engineer you trust and respect. Don't let someone tell you that your sound is crap if you know it isn't. Remember that in Bonham's early days engineers would tell him he was 'unrecordable' because his kit was so loud and wide open. I guess they kinda blew that considering he pretty much defines the greatest rock drum sound ever.

[glissando]

Originally Posted by Dr. Mordo

It's been 13 years since that session, and everything I have learned since then has made me very secure that he was in fact a tool. The reason he was a tool is because he could only accept that a drumkit should be tuned sloppy loose and that any other sound was wrong. I would think that anyone who has spent time in a studio would know that there isn't one 'correct' sound, but apparently not.

In terms of tuning, there are a wide range of great drum tunings that have been recorded. Bonham tuned very high, Matt Cameron tunes very high. Tony Williams ran his drums very tight, and fit perfectly on fusion recordings with a full rock band. Meanwhile there are guys like Gadd and a multitude of other rock drummers who run heavy heads super loose with some kind of muffling. All can be great in the right application.

About the OP's situation - if the drums were out of tune, that's one thing. If they are just tuned differently then the engineer is used to, then maybe it's time for him to expand his horizons. If you and your band are paying the bills, you need to be more assertive about what you want. If you trust the engineer, you should at least try his suggestions. But, at the same time, if you want to hear your kit come out of the speakers, tuned the way you like it, you need to tell him. If he can't capture the sound of your drums, and if the band is supportive, I'd find somebody else to record the album.

Honestly, my situation and the OP's are almost identical. Our session was basically for a album length demo, so we just let it go and conceded that the floor tom would sould terrible (really not a huge concession to make on a demo). If what you are doing is going to be released, I'd be firm on my expectations. In some ways the critical issue here is the band. Will they support moving on to another engineer or do they like this guy? The OP states that he has been playing for 20 years. I'd say that's enough time to know how you want your kit to sound, and assuming you are chipping in for the recording I think you have the right to tell the engineer what you expect.

If there is one instrument that is consistently misunderstood, it is the drums. Sometimes as a drummer you have to fight for a good sound. Many people think the drums should sound like a drum machine. This is why it's crucial to hire an engineer you trust and respect. Don't let someone tell you that your sound is crap if you know it isn't. Remember that in Bonham's early days engineers would tell him he was 'unrecordable' because his kit was so loud and wide open. I guess they kinda blew that considering he pretty much defines the greatest rock drum sound ever.

I think I have to argue a bit here...Bonham's recorded sound is very specific and only works in a very limited set of circumstances ( Jimmy Page was an incredible arranger/producer bck then)...on the other hand, there are alot of engineers that shouldn't be telling you anything because they lack the knowledge/experience....from my experience, it feels like dude didn't give the engineer a fair shake AND of course there wer low tuned drums in the 70's!!!!! Eagles, Every disco song, Steve Miller, Pink Floyd, Steely Dan? Fleetwood Mac...I'm missing a bunch but you get the picture.

[Dr. Mordo]

My point about Bonham was that the engineers lacked the vision to realize that what he did was brilliant. They wanted to change it to make it more familiar to them instead of simply capturing the greatness.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Dr. Mordo

Don't let someone tell you that your sound is crap if you know it isn't.

I can agree with a lot of your post, but to be honest my experience is that most drummers who know their sound isn't crap are deluding themselves. A minority of engineers I've worked with couldn't get a decent drum sound, and another few were married to one sound and couldn't hear anything beyond it.
But in the 80's and 90's I made a living replacing drummers who fought the engineer and producer who thought the drum sound needed work, and actually fought the idea that their performances weren't up to scratch too.
9 times out of 10 those drummers were told to take the day off and a studio drummer like me was brought in.
Studio drummers understand the drum sound is a collaboration not an edict.
And while I'm having a bit of a rant, if it's one thing John Bonham is surely spinning in his grave about, it's the amount of times this unique sounding drummer (from a bygone age let's be fair) has been used as an excuse for unrecordable drum sounds.

[Monty Sneddon]

Originally Posted by chrisso

I can agree with a lot of your post, but to be honest my experience is that most drummers who know their sound isn't crap are deluding themselves. A minority of engineers I've worked with couldn't get a decent drum sound, and another few were married to one sound and couldn't hear anything beyond it.
But in the 80's and 90's I made a living replacing drummers who fought the engineer and producer who thought the drum sound needed work, and actually fought the idea that their performances weren't up to scratch too.
9 times out of 10 those drummers were told to take the day off and a studio drummer like me was brought in.
Studio drummers understand the drum sound is a collaboration not an edict.
And while I'm having a bit of a rant, if it's one thing John Bonham is surely spinning in his grave about, it's the amount of times this unique sounding drummer (from a bygone age let's be fair) has been used as an excuse for unrecordable drum sounds.

I can relate to this. Either I've had to do a bit of replacement work or I've been hired as a tech, where I go in and tune the drums so the producer gets the sound required for that particular song and then the band's drummer at least gets to actually play on the tune.

At the end of the day, it's all about what's best for any particular song, not who's right or wrong regarding the drum sound. I've played parts where I thought the drums sounded horrible, but in the context of the song they sounded great, you just have to leave the ego at the door and do what has to be done.

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by Monty Sneddon

At the end of the day, it's all about what's best for any particular song, not who's right or wrong regarding the drum sound. I've played parts where I thought the drums sounded horrible, but in the context of the song they sounded great, you just have to leave the ego at the door and do what has to be done.

The drummer I mentioned earlier absolutely hates going into a particular (really expensive) local studio because of the drum sound. He says it's too 70s. The engineer there is old school, having come up in the 70s and never progressed past that era. Funny thing is, the drums sound great to me, coming from the perspective of the big picture.

[Monty Sneddon]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Funny thing is, the drums sound great to me, coming from the perspective of the big picture.

That's exactly it; it's all about seeing the big picture. Many drummers get so hung up on 'their sound' or 'their part' that they fail to see how they will finally fit into the rest of the song and compliment what's happening with everyone else.

[ripper]

Look... where was the PRODUCER?

really...

what type of a session? what music? what's the target, the purpose?

firstly, maybe the KIT sucked. (maybe not) but many times i've found if i can get a listen in on the kit, i can give it a thumbs up or down. tune all you want, but an inferior kit will sound just that. ditto for a drummer.

if i have something i consider sub par, i'll explain that and present alternatives... renting a great drum kit w/ a guy who sets it up and tunes it to perfection can be a lot cheaper than chasing your tail and trying to polish a turd.

the only thing you get then is a smaller turd, really smelly hands and a large studio bill.

hours and hours on a kit? not on your life!!!!!!!

set the f*cker up and hit it.

if i know the room is good but the sound is crap and i've had a go on the lugs, then it's a crap kit or someone who cant hit. all the tuning in the world aint gonna change that.

but from your post, i'm thinking CRAP ENGINEER. he should have pulled the plug WAY sooner.

shite, it aint rocket science! it's DRUMS!

good luck. all sounds over complicated to me...

but then most approaches seem that way.

[ripper]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

The drummer I mentioned earlier absolutely hates going into a particular (really expensive) local studio because of the drum sound. He says it's too 70s. The engineer there is old school, having come up in the 70s and never progressed past that era. Funny thing is, the drums sound great to me, coming from the perspective of the big picture.

"progessed since the 70's"

hmmm... gated phil collins reverbs and the sound of two trash can lids smacking together in the 80's... slick studio shite where you can feel the studio air conditioning in the 90's and now vogue low fi in this century which sounds sixties...

i think to progress drum sounds we need to do away with the whole kick, snare, tomm, cymbal, etc. set up. i loved a lot of that "found object" kit on the tom waits stuff like swordfishtrombones and raindogs. that did sound like a progression to me.

but i dig human beat boxes for the same reason.



is that thinking outside of the box?