Working with drummers that can't really write parts.....

[Benmrx]

Soooo... you guys being drummers and all, maybe you can lend some advice.

Quite often I'm working a drummer that just can't write parts. I have a hard time explaining where EVERY SINGLE kick/snare/crash should be. I can convey a general idea of what the verse and chorus patterns are, but to a certain extent I feel like there isn't much else I can do. The kicker is that he's a good drummer if left to his own devices and NOT playing any kind of structured pattern. He can "jam" REAL good and can pull of some killer grooves... and really get into it.... but the minute he tries to play any kind of western pop formula where there's suppose to be a general base for the song and especially not "go over" the vocals he gets lost.

You can tell that he's got some "formal training" through taking lessons and what not, and you can tell he's been playing a long time,... but it's painfully obvious he's never really been in "bands" where you can't just "jam", but you've got be able to pop right into the groove of the song from the get-go and hit certain points of interest with crashes, rolls, pauses, etc.

Basically we're going through songs right now and I'm somewhat dreading the amount of editing I'm about to delve into. I'm literally going to have to make his parts through edits. I guess it's alright because these songs don't need to sound very natural. I'll probably be adding some electronic elements in most of the songs, etc.

Any advice from you guys.... maybe even words of wisdom I can send his way?

[Dr. Mordo]

Sadly, that is pretty standard for a lot of young drummers. He sounds like the type who may have been in marching band, and then listened to jam bands but never really studied actual music outside the physical aspect of hitting the drums. The key is that he needs to understand how the drum part works with the song, not just the groove. Honestly, he just needs to study his craft more. You might actually make sure he understands what terms like verse, chorus, bridge, intro, and outro mean.

A good question to ask might be 'why?' This isn't you asking it necessarily; ideally he is asking it to himself, but I have asked it of other musicians from time to time.

Why is he playing a certain lick in a certain place, does it serve the song?

Why is he on the ride cymbal as opposed to the hi-hats?

Why is he on the hi-hats at all? Why not hit no cymbals except crashes?

When he starts getting into the purpose of a part, how to write his own part will be more apparent. A good thing to do is study how a drummer has built a part for a great song. "Stairway to Heaven" comes to mind for the brilliant way the Bonham builds in the course of the song. "Aja" and "Gaucho" are worthy of study. Really, a lot of Steely Dan would be good to study. A great album for simple but perfect drum parts is Back in Black. He should be asking himself "why is the drummer playing on the ride?" or "why did the drummer put that fill there?" The more he studies what the greats have done, the more he'll understand his craft.

BTW, he should pay special attention to how the bass drum and bass guitar lock in together. Or maybe the bass drum and the riff if it is more riff driven music.


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I think a very important concept that very few people understand is what exactly the drummer contributes to a song - tension and dynamics.

If he plays a steady beat with no fills it gets boring for the listener, like a drum machine. Conversely, when the drummer plays a fill, all of a sudden the beat goes away and the song is on rhythmically unstable ground. When he comes back out of it into the groove again, all the tension is released. So he creates tension at calculated moments with a fill, and then releases it. It's much like playing a V7-I progression. But just like the dominant chord, the placement of the tension is critical for it to work right for the song. So it all goes back to "why" - why play a fill? Why not play a fill?

The drummer's other important role is dynamics. Few instruments have as much of a dynamic range as a drumkit. The quietest and most difficult part is to not play at all, but from there you can reach all the way up to pounding the kit while riding on the crashes. The kit will sound very different depending on how hard it is struck, and then the different cymbals and ways of striking them have their own dynamic range. So a part should be constructed while thinking, "ok, what parts need to be closed and tight, and what parts need to be wide open." A common train of thought is to play short notes, tight hi-hat type stuff, if the band is playing short notes. Conversely, drummers tend to play longer tones, like the ride cymbal or even toms, over sustained chords. Then he needs to figure out how hard he should play because the kit will sound different depending on how hard he's beating it. A lot of the control in Gadd's sound comes from his fairly light touch, while much of the brutality of Bonham's tone is because he's playing hard. That's one of the things that honestly drives me crazy - loud music where I can clearly hear that the drummer is playing softly. So, once again, why? Why play on the ride? Why play at all? Why play loud when the rest of the band is medium intensity?


Notice I didn't say 'keeping time'. Yes, the drummer should have good time, but so should everyone else. If someone is depending on the drummer to 'keep' time, they need to practice. Time isn't a constant, and it isn't maintained by one person - it's a consensus reached by a group of collaborating musicians. Even if using a metronome, it's still a consensus because you have to agree on where you're going to play in reference to the beat.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Benmrx

Any advice from you guys....

Find another drummer?

Really it's studio drumming 101 to play consistently, and to play what the artist, producer and/or songwriter wants you to play.
It really is a waste of time recording someone who changes parts inexplicably, or isn't listening to what they are playing in a musical context.
My only advice is to lend him some records with great studio drummers on them. Not the flash 'jam band' kinda thing.... Porcaro, Purdie, Kenny Aronoff, Andy Newmark, Rick & Jerry Marotta etc, etc.

[uncle duncan]

Give him a lyric sheet (I'm assuming there is a pilot vocal on the track? If there isn't, no wonder he's lost) and show him the different sections. Note "hi hat" in the verses, "fill" to set up the chorus, "ride" in the chorus and solo. Maybe even play him a cut from the radio and have him follow along with a lyric sheet for that song, so he understands how the drummer defines the structure and how he sets up the transitions from verse to chorus, chorus to lead, and the inevitable breakdown after the solo or bridge, (if you're doing the standard Nashville thing where the last verse is quiet before the big last chorus.)

If that doesn't work, perhaps you could look into picking up one of those electric shock collars for dogs...

[Benmrx]

Thanks for the tips guys.

He's really not THAT bad..... I mean, he does know the difference between a verse, chorus, intro, etc. In all honesty, I think half of my post was simply being frustrated that day. A BIG part of it is that he hasn't been playing very much lately......I.E., he's got a new "serious" girlfriend...

Later that night I did have a little chat with him and basically just said he needed to play more, and to simply trust his instincts. After that he actually started pulling off some MUCH nicer performances. Half of it is that sometimes he's just too timid with the drums and even if he is playing the right part, it's hard to tell because you can feel that he's not sure of himself. Again, a major part of this is that he's simply out of practice.

I've made him some compilations before, but maybe I need to do it again.

[Dr. Mordo]

You might suggest to him that being out of practice means he should play less, not more.

But I'm glad you seem to be working thru it. Good luck.

[Doran Palmer]

Just curious, is he playing to a click? Normally for me the click pulls you back and keeps you from over playing. Certainly gives you no detail to structure, but after playing through several times, he should be able to then determine the dynamics needed. Normally for me, even if I have never heard the song before, if you give me the tempo, and let me listen to the whole song a couples times, with a little input of what you are looking for, I can put it down in a couple takes, and probably just a few punch ins for fills.

[Benmrx]

Originally Posted by Doran Palmer

Just curious, is he playing to a click? Normally for me the click pulls you back and keeps you from over playing. Certainly gives you no detail to structure, but after playing through several times, he should be able to then determine the dynamics needed. Normally for me, even if I have never heard the song before, if you give me the tempo, and let me listen to the whole song a couples times, with a little input of what you are looking for, I can put it down in a couple takes, and probably just a few punch ins for fills.

Yeah, there's a click. Also a "guide" acoustic guitar and "guide vocals", both doing the lead and harmonies where need be.. even some "oohs and ahhs". Even though he is a bit out of practice, it's always taken him a bit longer to warm up to a particular song.

Again, I think a major ro******* is his personal confidence in what he's playing.

[Doran Palmer]

Originally Posted by Benmrx

Yeah, there's a click. Also a "guide" acoustic guitar and "guide vocals", both doing the lead and harmonies where need be.. even some "oohs and ahhs". Even though he is a bit out of practice, it's always taken him a bit longer to warm up to a particular song.

Again, I think a major ro******* is his personal confidence in what he's playing.

I understand, recording to a click is always a little intimidating if not done on a regular bases, and will be very responsible for underplaying your instrument especially if it is low in the mix. I was going to mention removing the bass track, but from your comment, its not there. This has a tendency to distract the drummer from the click. Didn't know how much of the mix was done before he started recording.

For me, insuring the mix and the click can be heard clearly over the drums is critical. Maybe even see if bringing his mix up louder will make him play harder. I will just instinctively Underplay in order to hear the mix. Just a thought.

[Jax]

There are drummers who find the standard pop formula boring and / or their attention span is too short to stay locked in place for long. Unfortunately, the drummer you're working with is one (or both) of the above. It's unlikely he'll be able to adapt and change enough to fit what the session calls for. For most drummers, it takes quite awhile to rethink their whole approach, but good luck!

Makes me think of Elvin Jones (Coltrane's drummer) who played in a very non-formulaic way, but everything worked quite well with the exploratory feel of the music. A great match-up of styles was forged, but it sounds like that ain't going to happen with your drummer right away. He's just in the wrong band, or maybe no band is right for him until he learns to play for the music instead of himself.

[firby]

Assuming a lot. Assuming a whole lot really, about your playing, your songs, your approach and the genre you are playing.

Here is a suggestion. Pick a beat for the verse, pick a beat for the chorus, pick a beat for the bridge. Then work the transitions.

Don't expect him to occupy your musical mind. Don't expect to control every last contour of every beat coming from the drummer. And, just like any relationship with anything, don't expect it to not change.

Understand, once you start telling a good drummer what to play, you begin to limit what the drummer will play. Which means, that if he has the capability to play something better, he probably won't because you have already told the guy what to play.

It will take some time to write parts.

Oh and if you are recording, I find, all of the time, always, that a great headphone mix and mix of the live microphones in the cans makes all of the difference in the world. You have monitored his mix in his cans on your head right ? Alot of times the greener players to recording can't tell you what is wrong with the mix.

Also, the more the song is complete in the cans the better the takes will get.

[Benmrx]

Firby and Jax:

Good stuff!!

Firby:
I'll admit being guilty of expecting him to read my "musical mind".... that's for sure. And I fully agree that once I tell him what to play, I'm limiting what he'll do. A great example was later that night, after I told him to just trust his instincts he came up with a kick/snare pattern that worked better with the song than what I asked him to play originally. That was a nice moment for him and his confidence factor.

There's really not much yet recorded on these songs, so not much I can do for a better headphone mix regarding backing tracks.

Jax:
I know for a fact that he has some issues with his attention span and what a drummer really "should do" in a general pop song. I've reigned him in quite a bit since I first starting working with him. The first time I played music with him he had this monster 12 piece, double kick setup..... and he was just all over the place.... again, it was fun for "jamming", .. not so much for recording pop tunes. that didn't last long with me, and was a few years ago. These days I've usually got him on a 4 piece kit... although some songs (like the project we're doing right now) it's only a 3 piece.

Also, I need to realize that he's really NOT a "rock drummer". Sometimes I try and force it out of him, but it's just not in his bones.

[relayer]

Take an early Beatles record and have him play each song note for note. Playing to Ringo as a young drummer was as useful as any lessons I ever took. By the time I "graduated" to drummers like Morello, Cobham and Bruford, things were much easier, as I had the basics down pat.

Good luck, but this guy sounds like a lost cause. The groove is everything.

Steve