Kicks and Toms

[Aaron Miller]

I want to get a nice, versatile set of drums for studio use--mostly rock, pop, motown, funk, and a little R&B. This would be for client use (I don't get a lot of pro musicians with good kits) and I would also use them to start learning to play drums (I'm a songwriter and guitarist, but want the freedom to lay down some of my own drum tracks every now and then.) I guess it should be a somewhat versatile set (only talking about kick and toms here, snare and cymbals is another issue).

I'm strongly considering the Yahama Recording Custom. Probably a 20x14 or 22x14 kick. Recording, I've never really had problem getting boom and low end, and usually end up looking for a little more control and punch (and a little less resonance when using some deep kicks that seem to be designed more for live use...always end up adding a little padding). Anyway, that's why I'm looking at those sizes for recording only.

As far as toms, I only want one rack tom and one floor tom. I definitely don't like the sound of the smallest sizes in rack toms, but besides that I'm not sure. I'm thinking that I should get a slightly larger size rack tom since there's only one and a middle of the road floor tom. What sizes would you guys suggest? Any other thoughts about kicks and toms?

Thanks!

[Jack Ruston]

Personally, for rock and pop stuff I'd get 12 14 20. The smaller kicks tend to record very 'punchy'.

[uncle duncan]

My recording kit is a Yamaha Stage Custom, and I don't get complaints. It's birch, which supposedly records better than maple.

I'd encourage you to get two rack toms, just to keep the clients happy. It doesn't mean you have to set them both up every time, but if it's there, you're covered.

The 20" kick sounds like a great idea. Mine is a 22" and I struggle with too much low end - even with padding and a bright mic. I recently converted an 18" floor tom for a second kick option, but I'm really wishing I had a 20" instead.

With the 18", I found that a Audix F-14 kick mic (the cheaper version of the D6) mounted inside the drum close to the batter head (evans hydraulic) but near the edge of the drum really gives a clean articulate sound while eliminating some of the boom. I'm using the Kelly Shu mounting system, which is like a large fiberglass horse shoe with a mic mount in the middle. You suspend it with small bungee cords that hook to leather straps screwed into the shell using the existing screws for the hoop lugs. The 18" kick sounds killer miced, (right between the Alesis D4 "studio kick" and "deep wood kick") but the acoustic sound is rather weak.

If you don't yet have cymbals, you might check with Tony at CymbalsOnly.com current Bosphorus inventory. He has sound files of all his cymbals, but the best part is the fact that you can tell him what you're looking for, and he'll recommend a killer combination for recording. It's nice to have alternatives when some bozo comes in with heavy cymbals that sound like a** in a recording environment. (For R&B, you might check out the Zildjian ZHT 10" hi-hats. They sound a lot like a Roland drum machine, which can be magic for the right song.)

[Aaron Miller]

I'd encourage you to get two rack toms, just to keep the clients happy. It doesn't mean you have to set them both up every time, but if it's there, you're covered.

The 20" kick sounds like a great idea. Mine is a 22" and I struggle with too much low end - even with padding and a bright mic. I recently converted an 18" floor tom for a second kick option, but I'm really wishing I had a 20" instead.

Yes, I will probably end up getting a second rack tom just for clients. I can see that it would be useful even if not for my own purposes. In my own experience, I've never really felt that a second rack tom was lacking when I've recorded GOOD drummers that only have one---that's from an arrangement standpoint. I actually think it makes the drummer play a little more creatively with only one but that's just personal preference. With the crappy drummers, having only one tom is really the least of my worries.

As far as kick, I just don't get how low end can be lacking. Likely the tuning, mic selection, drummer, etc. For me, it's been quite the opposite. I've had a lot of drummers with big, resonant kicks and, if the hole on the front head isn't big enough to get inside the drum, it's usually a matter of taming the thump and getting more of the batter sound and less resonance. With a Beta 52 pointing into the hole towards the batter, there is always more than enough boom for me. So it's good to hear that I'm not the only one with this difficulty.

For toms, if you were going to buy three (knowing that you will often play with only two of them) what sizes would be good?

[Vintageblue02]

20" kick drum preferably birch or oak

And I would suggest that rather than getting two rack toms & a floor tom, that you look into:

12" tom
14" floor tom &
16" floor tom

On the last session I recorded, I swapped the 12" out for a 14" floor tom, result: little to no EQing was needed, and the tom parts were far more articulate without losing any power or energy from the performance which can often happen with smaller toms.

Also keep in mind:
Birch & Oak = Pre-EQd low-end (think kick, large toms)
Mahogany = Warm balanced low-end & smooth highs/mids (large toms/rack toms
Maple = Bright accentuated high end (good for small toms & some snares)

[Aaron Miller]

12" tom
14" floor tom &
16" floor tom

This is an interesting idea that I hadn't thought about and it my make perfect sense for my style.

It's weird: with kick I'm usually looking for more crispness but with toms I'm usually looking for a better low end. I just don't like toms that sound small and high pitched. They should sound big. Also, small toms for me sound like they're just for fills, but bigger ones sound like they're for playing and I love songs where the toms are featured..."desire" by U2 comes to mind, although I have no clue what toms were used.

Thanks for this idea.

[chrisso]

22" bass drum is a good all rounder and pretty much a studio staple.
A 2" gap between toms has become the norm too. So as 16" floor toms are also widely used I would agree with 12", 14" and 16" toms.
Birch and Maple are the most standard tone woods.
Birch is more focused.
There are lots of amazing maple kits around though.

[cloiselle]

22x18 kick
16x14 floor
14x12 floor
12x8 rack

14x6 snare

/thread

[Gristlehead]

I heard they released a kick drum mic and a mic for toms. I've not tried any of their mics but hear they are good for the money. Do you thing they would work better than my sm57's?

[John Suitcase]

Originally Posted by Gristlehead

I heard they released a kick drum mic and a mic for toms. I've not tried any of their mics but hear they are good for the money. Do you thing they would work better than my sm57's?

What preamps are you using? In my experience, good preamps make a huge difference on drums...

[Gristlehead]

At the moment I am using an old Ampex reel to reel with tube preamp built in. It sounds one hell of a lot better than the M-Box I was using. I am hoping to get a John Hardy pre in a couple of months though. $$$ a little tight, so slow but sure. (I hope!)

[Vintageblue02]

Originally Posted by Gristlehead

I heard they released a kick drum mic and a mic for toms. I've not tried any of their mics but hear they are good for the money. Do you thing they would work better than my sm57's?

I use MXL mics regularly on drums, so the Cube & A-55 should be up to their usual standard of quality. Most of their mics can usually take a beating (high SPLs). I use the MXL V67n, 603s, & 2003A on snare drum, the R44, V67g, & 2003A on kick, toms, and OH. You can't find mics with:
-high SPL ratings
-near flat response from low to high
-clear sound
at MXL's price point.

Just my opinion.

[pw2005]

Originally Posted by chrisso

22" bass drum is a good all rounder and pretty much a studio staple.
A 2" gap between toms has become the norm too. So as 16" floor toms are also widely used I would agree with 12", 14" and 16" toms.
Birch and Maple are the most standard tone woods.
Birch is more focused.
There are lots of amazing maple kits around though.

What would you recommend as a depth for the 22" kick? I have a 22x20 that came with a kit and I am thinking of cutting it down to 22 x 16.

Peter

[chrisso]

To be honest I tend not to worry too much about those kind of details.
I have a couple of 18 x 22's that record very well.

[pw2005]

Thanks. I do find that 22x20 is a bit different than 22x18,almost like the difference between a 10x8 and 10x10 tom. Anything can work but in my case it will help at small gigs to lose 4" of depth ,and should sound as good or better. I think it may eliminate a bit of the ballon sound on the internal mic when recording. I prefer not to dampen the kick too much.

Peter

[Dr. Mordo]

I feel it is my responsibility to point out that one of the classic jazz configurations used by Elvin and Tony among others is 13/16/20. You get the fatter mounted tom, which you can tune up quite a bit if you like the high pitched tom sound, or down to be quite deep if you like the more modern looser tunings. So I suggest you at least consider 12/13/16/20. That way you have a 5 piece kit if you need it, but you'll also have a good sounding 4 piece in a more versatile setup than 12/14/20, which doesn't work so well if you tune the 12 too tight. I have never really liked 12/16/20 because the intervallic leap between the mounted tom and floor tom is too much for my ears.

And, if you get a matching 24, you can do a decent Bonham imitation with 13/16/24. So if you buy 12/13/16/20/24 you have a bunch of options from jazz to Zep. I'd personally omit the 12, but I know a lot of dudes like two mounted toms.