Snare and Floor Tom tuning

[Chrislpp]

I have problems tuning these 2, I can never get them right pitch wise, keeping everything tight and level of equal tension still fruitless.

I have the 2 toms how I like them, but a roll from them down to the floor tom is ruined by this crap floppy DUNGGGGG!! Anyone know how I should tune each 16'' side? An accurate pitch would be good for each side for starting, bearing in mind that the rack toms are 1 step to around 1.5 steps away from each other.

As for the snare it needs dampened, that's easy but I starts to just kill it, it's a cheap snare but the new Ambassador head helped it greatly, would new wires and reso head help me at all with the over ringing and rattling of snares from the toms and kick? Or is this just a phenomenon with low end and high end snares? It's not as crack like as I have heard from other snares in the same price range with same sort of setup, I just can't get that sound!!! ARRGGH!!

Any advice?

[staudio]

Try Moongel for the dampening, it is absolutely amazing at tightening up the sound without killing it completely.

[GYMusic]

You might try Bob Gatzen's YouTube videos. They should at least help you get in the ballpark even with a cheap snare.

YouTube - bobgatzen's Channel

[Jax]

Originally Posted by staudio

Try Moongel for the dampening, it is absolutely amazing at tightening up the sound without killing it completely.

When they're new, moongels stick to the bottom head without falling off, which is great for getting a pesky tom under control. Of course, put one on the top head as well. It's all about carefully placing them so you don't lose punch.

Right now I have a whole pack on my kit and need about two more pieces.

[Nutmeg II.]

Floor tom:

The biggest factor with big drums is THE ROOM.
Move the tom to a different room or a different place to check out if the problem is the drum or the room.

If it is a thin shell with diecast hoops, than you might consider some flanged hoops.

Also place some foam under the tom spurs will usualy help open up the sound.


Snare:

Messure the distance from rim to lug and make sure it is equal all around the drum.
Do so on both sides of the snare drum.
Get the reso side to a tuning that is close to what you want (I think it is a little tight for your idea of a snare sound).

Make sure to install the snare just in the middle of the snare bed and the drum.

From there you can tighten the 4 lugs that are next to the snares or lose them to get the snare working.

You might want to try a Diplomat Hazy if you are using a Amassador Hazy on the reso side now.

[RubixGroove]

For the snare drum, the wires and heads are just about all ya got.
I use Aquarian heads, I've found that they tune up better and can take
a decent beating.


Puresound wires, Classic Clear head and the Z-100 coated batter head has ALWAYS been a very good standard for me. That's my 'default' snare set up.

As far as the floor tom goes, my idea on a "good" sound is not ideal in most's ears. I like to have my floor tom tuned up right around my kick drum. I like for there to be a definite "thud" but no real resonance. For me, I think the more dead the floor tom is the better for some reason. NOT choked, do not confuse...

Standard Z-100 coated batter head OR the Studio X. Classic Clear on the reso side. Again, this is my "default" set-up and the combination will allow for a ton of tuning options.... but my trick is a few thick pieces of some trusty duct tape.

I usually will put three or four 1"x1" squares stacked RIGHT ON TOP OF EACH OTHER on the INSIDE of the reso head. It seems to focus the sound a bit more, same effect as a moongel from what I've experienced.

Don't go crazy with the tape OR the gel, which ever way ya go.
It looks sloppy, plus the drum will have NO body, depending on how you tune of course.




I actually JUST re-sanded my bearing edges on my snare and floor tom not even an hour before reading this post. I've found that that has helped me quite a bit. Do some homework before you dig into that though, that's directly altering the shell, which is never a good thing.... depending on how steady your hands are anyway!



Unfortunately, the only thing that will help you is experimentation.
Some drums just hate some heads, that's all there really is to it.




Peace out my boggled brother!
Things will become more clear the more time ya put into it!

<3

[Jax]

Nutmeg is coming to America!!!

Originally Posted by Nutmeg II.

Floor tom:

The biggest factor with big drums is THE ROOM.
Move the tom to a different room or a different place to check out if the problem is the drum or the room.

If it is a thin shell with diecast hoops, than you might consider some flanged hoops.

Also place some foam under the tom spurs will usualy help open up the sound.


Snare:

Messure the distance from rim to lug and make sure it is equal all around the drum.
Do so on both sides of the snare drum.
Get the reso side to a tuning that is close to what you want (I think it is a little tight for your idea of a snare sound).

Make sure to install the snare just in the middle of the snare bed and the drum.

From there you can tighten the 4 lugs that are next to the snares or lose them to get the snare working.

You might want to try a Diplomat Hazy if you are using a Amassador Hazy on the reso side now.

[Gandy]

I've never followed all this talk about making sure lugs are equal and nothing's bent and it sounds even all the way along. I have a steel Premier, the top with an Emperor or sometimes Emperor X. The top's tuned high, right into the sweet spot of the snare. The bottom is an Evans Hazy 200, the thinnest snare side you can get. That's also tuned quite high. A half piece of Moongel about an inch in is all I need.

As for floor toms, I find both heads need to be as low as possible without making a plasticky sound. Floor toms have to be good quality to sound the best generally, I find it's a lot harder on a £250 kit than a Masters Premium.

[Chrislpp]

I cut off 2 snare wires like bob gatzen said and loosened the wires until most of the ring goes away, I don't mind so much the toms making the snares rattle.

If i lift the floor tom up and hit it I get this awesome sustained DUUNG, but when sat on the floor it's killed a bit, I'll try a makeshift hard riser.

It's more the pitch of it that I can't get right.

[Grumblefoot]

I always start tuning with the biggest tom first (in your case the pesky floor). Find the sweet spot of that drum then tune up a 3rd or 5th on the next tom and on till you get to the top one.

[Nutmeg II.]

Yes the smaller and the bigger toms have the smallest tuning range, and there for should be tuned in to their sweet spots first.
The mid sized toms will then usualy fit inbetween very easily.

[GYMusic]

Originally Posted by Nutmeg II.

Yes the smaller and the bigger toms have the smallest tuning range, and there for should be tuned in to their sweet spots first.
The mid sized toms will then usualy fit inbetween very easily.

That's a very astute observation. I think I figured that out also without thinking too much about it, but you're absolutely correct.

[svart]

Originally Posted by GYMusic

You might try Bob Gatzen's YouTube videos. They should at least help you get in the ballpark even with a cheap snare.

YouTube - bobgatzen's Channel

Once I watched his videos, I bought a guitar tuner with a mic. I now tune with the tuner. I put the mic near the lug I'm tuning. Works great but you have to practice with it a bit.

On a 14x5.5 snare I tuned to C on top and A on the bottom. That sounds really high but you then use the mic's proximity effect to get the balls that people try to get when they tune snares too low.

I also tried many heads and found that the Aquarian Hi-Energy head works well. It's heavy in the center but light in the edges so it has a fat attack with a slight ringing decay. Most people think it's too heavy when they see it but it actually records very well. Hold up great in live performances too.

[mikethedrummer]

I heard a pretty interesting theory recently, haven't had a chance to test it.

Next time you replace your drum heads (both batter and resonant) try taking all of the hardware off and finding a rubber mallet. Apparently if you hit the bare shell with a mallet, the shell itself will resonate a certain frequency. Record this frequency and play it on loop.
It seems like a sound theory. If you really did nail the drums natural resonant frequency in its tuning I can imagine getting a very full sound.
I'd love to hear if anyone has had any success thumbsup

This web page is very informative as well as far as getting the drum to that frequency the right way: Drum Tuning Bible

[Jax]

Originally Posted by mikethedrummer

I heard a pretty interesting theory recently, haven't had a chance to test it.

Next time you replace your drum heads (both batter and resonant) try taking all of the hardware off and finding a rubber mallet. Apparently if you hit the bare shell with a mallet, the shell itself will resonate a certain frequency. Record this frequency and play it on loop.
It seems like a sound theory. If you really did nail the drums natural resonant frequency in its tuning I can imagine getting a very full sound.
I'd love to hear if anyone has had any success thumbsup

Yeah, that theory is right on, but you can just use the side of your thumb to tap the shell and find its natural resonant frequency. I used to do this a long time ago and it works well, although I went back to tuning by ear. I never found the need to take the hardware off, although it would probably be easier to hear the humming of the shell when tapped if the shell was 'naked' and didn't rattle.

I figure that in general, a drum will sound good and in tune when head tension reaches harmonic intervals with, or matches the shell's natural frequency.

I like the idea of recording and playing back a loop of the shell ringing. That definitely would make the process easier.

[JB872]

Once I watched his videos, I bought a guitar tuner with a mic. I now tune with the tuner. I put the mic near the lug I'm tuning. Works great but you have to practice with it a bit.

Someone mentioned this in another thread and was wondering if you can give any tips on how to tune drums with a tuner? It sounds pretty straight forward but my Peterson strobetuner goes a little crazy when I try tuning with it.

[Nutmeg II.]

Keep in mind: A shell with hardware and the tension of the heads will have a different shell resonance that the naked shell.

[mikethedrummer]

Originally Posted by Nutmeg II.

Keep in mind: A shell with hardware and the tension of the heads will have a different shell resonance that the naked shell.

Why is that? Resonant frequencies are a constant depending on the mass, density, shape, and medium of an object. Its kind of like constructive phase cancellation but with the atoms of the object.

Also, a very loud sine wave sweep would probably be a lot easier than hitting it with a hammer. I doubt my clients would have liked that idea a whole lot

[pan60]

and Nutmeg II. said

A shell with hardware and the tension of the heads will have a different shell resonance that the naked shell.

when you add the hardware you change the mass.

[mikethedrummer]

Originally Posted by pan60

and Nutmeg II. said

when you add the hardware you change the mass.

Then adding the extra weight of the counterhoops and skins would change the mass again. So this whole theory is debunked as the resonant frequency would be impossible to properly measure.
Or its just the shell itself that matters. The wood is what would be vibrating, not the steel hardware. Who knows..

[pan60]

Originally Posted by mikethedrummer

Then adding the extra weight of the counterhoops and skins would change the mass again. So this whole theory is debunked as the resonant frequency would be impossible to properly measure.
Or its just the shell itself that matters. The wood is what would be vibrating, not the steel hardware. Who knows..

not sure i would say the theory would be debunked, the sum mass of all the hardware and skin do effect the shells resonates, they just all work together.
if you take a slab of thin wood ( or just about anything ) and tap it, it will resonate at a particular point. now load that with some type of mass, and it all changes. load is commonly used in tuning many thing that resonate. either to dampen or the change the point at with the do resonate. on the same hand so would be the removal of material.

[digibird]

[QUOTE=Jax;4416836]When they're new, moongels stick to the bottom head without falling off, QUOTE]

Wash moongels in warm water with a little liquid dish soap (Joy, Dawn) and they are good as new again. No more gig grit means they will stick to bottom heads again.

[Nutmeg II.]

Additionaly to the mass of the hoops and hardware that will lower the resonance, the heads tension will bring up the shells resonance (stiff the shell).

All bets are off now.

To find the shell resonance the best way is to tune the drum from low to high and check for the loudest tunings.

[analogasaur]

Originally Posted by Chrislpp

I have problems tuning these 2, I can never get them right pitch wise, keeping everything tight and level of equal tension still fruitless.

I have the 2 toms how I like them, but a roll from them down to the floor tom is ruined by this crap floppy DUNGGGGG!! Anyone know how I should tune each 16'' side? An accurate pitch would be good for each side for starting, bearing in mind that the rack toms are 1 step to around 1.5 steps away from each other.

As for the snare it needs dampened, that's easy but I starts to just kill it, it's a cheap snare but the new Ambassador head helped it greatly, would new wires and reso head help me at all with the over ringing and rattling of snares from the toms and kick? Or is this just a phenomenon with low end and high end snares? It's not as crack like as I have heard from other snares in the same price range with same sort of setup, I just can't get that sound!!! ARRGGH!!

Any advice?

what kind of drums ? as far as floor tom goes .try tuning top and bottom to the same pitch .dont worry so much about tension.. sound is what your after.while tuning , you want the pitch to be the same at each lug .in other words,tap around the head(closer to rim) and make sure pitch is even at all lugs ..tension will differ always ..even more on lesser quality drums and even more with old vintage stuff ...get both heads in tune with each other ..then try it.. if you want it lower, tune it 1/4 turn all the way around the lugs..flip,do same on bottom head.with some patience and practice youll find a sweet spot for that shell.. it will be resonant .thats what you want to shoot for.snare?well. what kind ?wood?metal?plexi? tight bottom, med tight to tight top will get you a useable snare sound ..but so many variables ..depends on what your looking for ..I personally never muffle any drums ...no dampening either.. once tuned and with a good player on them youll have great sounding drums....hope that helps for some tips..

[Beefsurgeon]

I've found that with floor toms, the pitch relationship between the top & bottom heads is what really makes or breaks the sound.

I usually start by getting the top head to a nice low pitch, then gradually bring up the bottom head to where they start to work together. I've found that a very small, incremental change in the bottom head can make the difference between a nice "buuuuuung" and a nasty "beyerrrrmpghghg".

[robertshaw]

sample it.......