Puffy kick drum?

[uncle duncan]

I’m a keyboard player, not a drummer, trying to put together a kit for quiet gigs and/or recording.

1. How do I get that puffy sound out of a kick drum? I’m thinking along the lines of the “studio kick” in the old Alesis D4: puffy low end, clicky high end, no midrange. I’ve got a Yamaha Stage custom kit here in the studio, but the 22x18 kick isn’t particularly puffy sounding.

2. Can I do this with a small kit for a semi-acoustic trio? The stage sound isn’t critical, since I can run the kick through the PA, but I’d like to keep the volume down - like way down - low enough so I can use the built-in speakers on my Roland FP-2 keyboard and not need a floor wedge. (Keyboards will go into the drummer’s monitor and out to the PA.)

I’d love to be able to use a low tom for a kick, but is it going to be puffy sounding? The mounting is no problem. I can make a cradle out of wood like one of these: Convert-A-Tom

Also, anyone having luck with the ultra-tone sticks/beater? Low volume drum sticks - Ultra Tones from Lidwish Soulutions for quiet accurate drumming

Thanks for your insight.

[scrubs]

You won't get much click, but the Vater Vintage Bomber Beater will give you poofy/puffy.

[dudeitsree]

Look into 20" drums. If I'm not mistaken I think you are wanting the sound that a 14x20" vintage Ludwig or Gretsch would give you. AND it depends on what head you put on the drum AND how you tune it. Stay away from EMADS and Superkicks and II's, I would recommend Remo Powerstroke 3 Coated or Emperor Coated heads and don't tune it too loose. Thats what I would try, Hope this helps.

[TheArchitect]

you wont get that sound from an acoustic drum. I have the SR16 and virtually every sound in it are heavily doctored up

[Nutmeg II.]

Just a big fluffy pillow filling 1/3 of the kick.
You'll need a PA to get the low end happening.

[dudeitsree]

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

you wont get that sound from an acoustic drum. I have the SR16 and virtually every sound in it are heavily doctored up

I still think its possible to get that sound with good drums , tuning and gobs of EQ.

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by dudeitsree

I still think its possible to get that sound with good drums , tuning and gobs of EQ.

Gobs of EQ = heavily doctored up

It can't be done acoustically

[HobbyCore]

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Gobs of EQ = heavily doctored up

It can't be done acoustically

You ought to come over to my drum room. I think you have lots to learn. I have a remo PTS 20" proto kick that does exactly what the OP is looking for.

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by HobbyCore

You ought to come over to my drum room. I think you have lots to learn. I have a remo PTS 20" proto kick that does exactly what the OP is looking for.

I think your arrogance is unbridled.

[joeq]

I think the one place where electronic kits are a reasonable choice is in the low-volume coffeehouse situations where you want to play drums softer than drums can actually be played

the access to "particular" sounds is a plus.

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by joeq

I think the one place where electronic kits are a reasonable choice is in the low-volume coffeehouse situations where you want to play drums softer than drums can actually be played

the access to "particular" sounds is a plus.

That's a valid approach. I just picked up a used kit on Craig's List for $400 and got a Jungle Jig kit to convert the 16" floor tom into a kick. I'm thinking if I added a trigger on the kick and ran it into my old Alesis D4, I could take that sample I like, kill the highs, and blend it with the real kick, which is decidedly non-puffy sounding at the moment. I'd still like to get the sound acoustically, so I'm trying some heavier heads, which might do the trick. There also might be a way to get the "puff" with mic placement, since mics can have a huge proximity affect when they're placed right on top of a sound source.

The Craig's List kick is 22", stuffed with a pillow, and has a Emad batter head with the interchangeable foam baffle rings. It sounds pretty darn puffy, but I haven't had a chance to try it in the studio.

Thanks for all the suggestions. In another forum, I stumbled across the "drum tuning bible", which has been very helpful.
Drum Tuning Bible

[joeq]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

. I'm thinking if I added a trigger on the kick and ran it into my old Alesis D4, I could take that sample I like, kill the highs, and blend it with the real kick,

I used to trigger my whole kit at gigs instead of micing them up. But this was a very loud band.

it's a lot of fun to blend the sounds and get very different drums from song to song, but one thing it is not, is 'quiet'. It's roughly twice as loud as the acoustic kit alone - and UP.

to 'blend it in' with the real kick, you must add the volumes together I think that gets away from what you said you wanted it for : quiet shows.

with a purely electronic kit, you make it as quiet as you like. You can literally have it at '1' on your amp and aside from some tapping on the pads, that's all people will hear.

[HobbyCore]

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I think your arrogance is unbridled.

It's almost as if I think I know, without a doubt, exactly "how it is" and there's no disagreeing with me.

What an asshole I am.

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

It can't be done acoustically

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by HobbyCore

...I think you have lots to learn. I have a remo PTS 20" proto kick that does exactly what the OP is looking for.

How is your kick set up/tuned?

[J1mbaFr0sty]

I dont wanna hi-jack the thread but i got similar questions but its kids drum set lol yes thats right

i wanna create that nice hollow punchy kick and high snapy snare in the old break beats or todays rap

yes i know its also from eq and comression and what not but i want a good foundation so any info ill take plz andthanks :D

[uncle duncan]

5 months later - this is what I’ve learned through trial and error (probably more for the noobs, since most of the people around here already know how to set up a kick drum.)

Experimenting with a Ludwig Standard (cheap) 20 X 14 kick drum for studio recording:

Loose tuning results in a slappy, flappy sound with a lot of attack and not much tone.

Tight tuning results in a thick, honky sound, which doesn’t fit in a mix very well if there’s any kind of bass instrument.

Tuning up just past loose to where there is an actual musical note, and matching the tuning on both heads (a C in my case) results in a warm, defined tone - about as close to “puffy” as I’ve been able to achieve.

I’m using a Emad batter head, with the smaller of the two foam muffle rings, and a ported front head with a piece of 1” foam plugging the hole. Removing the foam plug from the port results in more presence and less “puff”. I placed a heavy sock inside the drum, up against the reso head, held in place by a piece of foam laying in the bottom of the drum. The foam stops at the lip so it’s not up against either head.

I have a Beta 52 mounted inside via the Mays mic mounting system. Moving the mic around inside the drum didn’t make a big difference, although getting the mic closer to the outer diameter of the head resulted in more presence. At the moment the mic is sitting in the middle of the drum, a couple of inches below the center, aimed up at where the beater strikes the head.

The drummer really liked the acoustic sound of the drum, (when I played it so he could go out front and listen) but for my style of studio recording, I prefer close mics over the roomy sound, so I didn’t try another mic out in front of the kick.

On internal mic mounts: I prefer the Kelly Shu mic mounting system, which seems to be more robust in a situation where the drum is going to be hauled out to gigs. The Mays system is a metal arm with several moving joints secured by small allen head bolts, and it doesn’t take much for one of them to come loose.

On kick mics - I prefer the Audix F-14, or the more expensive D6. They both feature a response graph with a major smile curve, scooping out the low mids that can muddy up a kick drum in a mix. Plus, the Audix mics are really light in weight, at least compared to the beta 52.

Using a Gibralter 2” riser on the 20” kick, the beater strikes the head a bit above center. Lowering the beater to hit dead center seemed to reduce presence a bit. There is the issue of the Gibralter 2” riser moving the kick pedal back away from the drum a 1/2”, which means the beater has to swing a little past vertical to strike the head, but I suppose a cam adjustment on the pedal could take care of that. My drummer just nudged his DW pedal up against the riser and didn’t bother with the toe clamp - which put his beater almost close enough to the head to avoid making adjustments.

Validating some of the responses on this thread, the 20” kick is definitely a cool sound - a little more focused and controllable than a 22”. It took 3 months of watching Craig’s list to find one locally. I guess the alternative is to just buy a new shell pack that includes a 20” kick, since buying a 20” kick by itself costs almost as much as the whole shell pack.

[pan60]

thanks for the update.
what did tuning both heads to the same note give you ( i will try this later but just need to know: )~, over say a 3rd or a 5th between the batter and the resinate head, and i assume no holes?
and did this work for all the drums or did you only try it with the kick.
P.S.
i just replaced my 22'' Ludwig with a custom 18'' and i am happier. i was looking for a 20'' but this kit come along at a price i had to grab.

[uncle duncan]

Tuning both heads the same seemed to get the purest, most resonant tone. The front head already had a 4" hole in it, which was fine, considering all the fiddling I was doing with the mic inside. Putting the foam plug in the hole really cleaned up the sound, making it rounder and more controlled, but it needs to be taped in. The third track we recorded was a rockin' blues shuffle, and the foam plug popped out with the heavier foot work on the kick pedal.

I got a decent sound out of my 18" kick drum, but now that I've got three kicks, 18, 20, and 22, I'm going to re-head the 18 with no ports and see how that works out. I had a hydraulic head on the batter side (plus a taped-on piece of discarded drum head where the beater hits) and a fiberskin on the reso side with a 4" port, but the only way the drum sounded good miced (from inside via the Kelly Shu/F 14 rig) was with the low, flappy tuning, but it sounded really wimpy when playing unmiced. I ended up running the kick mic through the drummer's monitor so he'd get enough oomph out of it to be able to play comfortably. Some say the best approach for an 18" kick is to tune it a little higher so it will resonate, don't port it, and then mic the beater side.

I tried tuning my toms according to a recent thread here - 75 over 68 (drumdial readings) which worked out with the bottom head being a minor third lower than the top head, and the top head being a little loose, according to some who like a tighter tuning. I really like my toms now, at least for recording, although I tune them tighter for live gigs if the drums won't be miced.

[pan60]

thanks!

[drumzealot]

Originally Posted by joeq

I think the one place where electronic kits are a reasonable choice is in the low-volume coffeehouse situations where you want to play drums softer than drums can actually be played

the access to "particular" sounds is a plus.

Not to sound unbridley arrogant: but a good drummer should be able to play at any volume. I've played gigs for small parties, art shows, weddings, etc where the volume was so low you could be within a foot of the drums and have a normal conversation. OF course, I couldn't play speed metal at that volume. But give me a pair of Joe Porcaro Diamond tipped 7A's, brushes, and bundles dow rods and I can play most styles at an amazingly low volume.

The electronic kit works too but they are so flippin expensive. Plus I've never felt at home behind one. They are fun but, to me, they play like a very nice expensive toy.
I finally bought one (Hart Dynamics) so I can practice in my apartment and after logging in 100 hours or so, they still sound and feel to...sampled and fake. I'm using a Roland TD-20 brain.
Any Advice?

[Morgan C]

I don't have the D4, so I'm not 100% sure on the sound you're after, but if its something like this:

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/324723/Kick1.wav

Then you're best bet is to build a kick tunnel. I got the idea from Ben, and while I didn't do a very good job for the above sample (I didn't put enough blankets around the tunnel, so it was rather roomy), I still think it sounds really nice. Obviously not something you can do live though.

Above sample is raw; Pearl Export in a garage, e902 -> Fp10.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by drumzealot

OF course, I couldn't play speed metal at that volume. ..

but that's the whole point. Of course a good drummer can play soft, and he will sound soft doing so.

there are plenty of things -not just speed metal- that really are not very satisfying to be playing with brushes, rods and baby sticks

And plenty of sounds that can not be obtained by a light touch.

It's not just about speed. With electronics you can have a thunderous, verby kick or snare at Muzak volumes if that's what you need for a ballad or something.

[pw2005]

Originally Posted by drumzealot

Not to sound unbridley arrogant: but a good drummer should be able to play at any volume. I've played gigs for small parties, art shows, weddings, etc where the volume was so low you could be within a foot of the drums and have a normal conversation. OF course, I couldn't play speed metal at that volume. But give me a pair of Joe Porcaro Diamond tipped 7A's, brushes, and bundles dow rods and I can play most styles at an amazingly low volume.

The electronic kit works too but they are so flippin expensive. Plus I've never felt at home behind one. They are fun but, to me, they play like a very nice expensive toy.
I finally bought one (Hart Dynamics) so I can practice in my apartment and after logging in 100 hours or so, they still sound and feel to...sampled and fake. I'm using a Roland TD-20 brain.
Any Advice?

Play through VST samples if you want more realism. Roland will never catch up the the VST world.

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by Morgan C

I don't have the D4, so I'm not 100% sure on the sound you're after, but if its something like this:

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/324723/Kick1.wav

Then you're best bet is to build a kick tunnel. I got the idea from Ben, and while I didn't do a very good job for the above sample (I didn't put enough blankets around the tunnel, so it was rather roomy), I still think it sounds really nice. Obviously not something you can do live though.

Above sample is raw; Pearl Export in a garage, e902 -> Fp10.

That is a similar sound to the Alesis "studio kick". During my session the other day, we compared my 20" kick with the Alesis sample. They were very similar. I think if I had the F-14 mic in there, it would have been even closer, but it's mounted inside the 22" kick, which goes out on gigs.

I've never tried the kick tunnel, but I have used a woofer wired into a mic preamp, micing the port hole in the front head. It gives you that little extra thump (that the mastering guy is probably going to eliminate.)

[dannygold]

Originally Posted by pw2005

Play through VST samples if you want more realism. Roland will never catch up the the VST world.

VST meaning Steinberg's plugin format?

[RubixGroove]

Felt beater + djembe.


It's super simple and very effective for smaller venues.
Personally, I really think it sounds amazing, especially in person.

Video Drum Lessons | P Ellis Drums


The very first video is an example.


Cheers

[firby]

+1 for the felt beater and a djembe. I get a poofy sound out of my gretsch stop sign kit. Its aqaurian coated head with a acryllic front head with a can sized hole near the edge of the front hole. I mike it with a beta 52. In this particular drums case it just has the resonance so it is just about picking the right heads and beater. I generally use a felt but I will also go cherry or wool. Wool beaters produce so much poof on this drum that it is just too much. Try the front head just a bit lower in pitch from the beater side. Go for as much sustain as you can handle and then worry about the click from the beater. My drum has a beta about 3 inches off of the front head inside the drum. If I really need gong sustain then I compress it to suck in the resonance off of the head.

[toolskid]

You could also try a 'woofer' type setup with two kicks, one thin large sized super open low tuned and resonant placed in front of a tighter (sometimes single skinned) kick. Experiment with felt strips across the inside of the heads to get suitable damping.

I'm suprised at all the recommendations for puff-ball beaters when the OP was asking for 'clicky highend'!!!

Best to you all!

[RubixGroove]

Wood beater + djembe?