studio drums need some advise

[everybody's x]

I just bought a Mapex Mars series 5 piece kit yesterday with the intention of setting up a house kit w/new heads and all that good stuff. The kit is about ten years old and I got a good deal on it.
I will still need to buy some cybals and a good double bass pedal (99% of what I record is metal/hard rock stuff.)
Today I found out a friend of mine is selling a kit for his sister, a Sonor Force 1001 series 5 piece, it has a full compliment of cymbals, a nice double bass pedal and hardware as well. I can get this kit for approximately what I paid for the Mapex. and this kit looks like it has never been played at all.
I know absolutely nothing about drums and was wondering if some of the drummers out there would chime in and let me know which way to go.
thanks
Dave

[Curtis Franklin]

the mars are nicer drums, what kind of pedal and cymbals are included with the sonor?

[everybody's x]

the sonor's have a zbt ride, avedis 14" hats and a scimitar 18" crash
and the double bass pedal is a sonor. double chain drive dealio



the mapex comes with 14" scimitar hats and a ride I never heard of before (zanki?)
and a single chain drive bass pedal

[wilkinswp]

I personally wouldn't use the scimitars. Go with Zildjian A, K or Z series or Paistes or Sabians. I wouldn't use anything else. But with that said, cymbal choice is personal. Though, the cymbals I mentioned are ones with which you can't go wrong.

I'm unfamiliar with the Mars Mapex series, but Sonor makes good drums. A friend of mine had a set that we messed around with to record a long time ago. I thought they sounded great. Really, a lot of it will come down to tuning the drums.

You might want to focus only on the drums themselves in this situation as it sounds like you're likely going to need to buy some cymbals later.

[Curtis Franklin]

those particular sonars are not as good as the mapex ones you listed.
the double pedal is weak in my opinion.
those cymbals are all worthless to record.

i would stick with the mapex and slowly invest in:

a) nice cymbals (zildjian all have 1 year warrenty which is good for metal drummers)
b) a tama iron cobra pedal. i play drums hard. i broke 4 of the hinges on the dw5000 pedals i bought. then i bought the iron cobra pedals, and i havnt broken anything in years.
c) a couple of nice snares (aluminum will give you a good result for cheap, brass is best for what you want, or a really DEEP maple or other heavy wood)

i would consider selling you an extra set of the iron cobras if you are interested (pm me)

good luck

[warhead]

I'd say go listen to the other kit before knocking it. Sonor's toms typically sound great and even the low end stuff can have some killer toms. Might be worth it to get the Sonor for the toms and buy a few snares to have around?

Get rid of those cymbals, they are pie pans. Zildjian A series, all the way.

War

[Drumsound]

Originally Posted by everybody's x

the sonor's have a zbt ride, avedis 14" hats and a scimitar 18" crash
and the double bass pedal is a sonor. double chain drive dealio



the mapex comes with 14" scimitar hats and a ride I never heard of before (zanki?)
and a single chain drive bass pedal

So, neither of them come with cymbals!

[everybody's x]

ha! well I told you I dont know crap about them

I know how to record them

[dynomike]

Hey Dave, remember me from the tapeop board?

Yeah, I wouldn't spring for the Sonor setup, mainly because the pedal and cymbals are pretty worthless.

For hard rock/metal stuff I wouldn't hesitate to recommend, however - Sabian AAX series or AA. Zildjian A's are also usually a good bet, which is usually what I use.

I'll second the Iron Cobra recommendation. I've been using a powerglide iron cobra for a while and and its great. I've also played on a kit with the dbl iron cobra pedal and its nice and smooth.

So, don't bother with shitty cymbals and stuff, really, you'll regret it later.

Yes, in terms of snare, which you'll want to get next after this stuff, I think you should look at a getting a 5x14 or 6x14 brass first. They really are the shizzle. Rogers Powertone, Ludwig Black Beauty, Worldmax black dawg, they all will get you there. I'd go with the worldmax black hawg actually in your case. Anyway.

You should also buy my cd, you fair-weather fan.

Mike

[everybody's x]

right on Mike, so the CD's done? info has been pretty sporadic coming from tapeop

i will absolutely buy your cd, you should post a link on this thread or something




and I simply must have something called a BLACK HAWG

[everybody's x]

bought it thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup


hey man if you remember throw that stuff you did with your brother in the mail with it

if you don't mind

[gianuz]

Hi,
I would like to point out that
AFAIK,

Zildjian A series = Avedis

so I can't understand why everybody is suggesting to buy Zildjian A's, saying that ALL the cymbals included with the Sonor kit are worthless.

I would ask a friend (a drummer) to play the kits for me and choose the one I like.
The Avedis HiHat may be very nice (and usually quite expensive).

regards

Gianni

[wilkinswp]

Yeah, the avedis--the A series--are fine for the hats, but the scimitars are crap. The Zs are good for metal--Lars uses/used them.

I agree with Gianuz in your having a friend who is a good drummer play the drums. You won't get a good feel for the sound unless a decent player is sitting behind them.

[84K]

Wow... No response from Roundbage yet??? You alright Brother?

MARS.

[everybody's x]

no shit I figured he'd be first, then maybe Garges

[Drumsound]

Originally Posted by everybody's x

no shit I figured he'd be first, then maybe Garges

Garges is on vacation. I'm gonna see him Friday. He's coming through to see me and possibly Mark Rubel.

For cymbals buy them on the thinner side for studio use. I like the A customs for new cymbals. Older As and Ks are very cool. Find a nice set of old thin 15" hats. They don't dominate as much.

Thick Hi-Hats are a tool of the devil!

[everybody's x]

thanks Tony,
I thought I needed thin 13" hats?


SO CONFUSING AND EXPENSIVE

[cgarges]

Originally Posted by Drumsound

Garges is on vacation. I'm gonna see him Friday. He's coming through to see me and possibly Mark Rubel.

And a great hang it was. Nice to see the Oxide Lounge in person and get a couple of nice RADAR tips from Tony. That's a cool little studio up there in Bloomington. Pogo is also super-sweet, like its owner, Mark Rubel. Fun times eating good food and listening to tunes and talking music and gear. A nice end to a pleasant week off.

By the way, Tony, it took us three hours to find a hotel this side of Knoxville-- I have no idea why everything was booked-up. We finally stopped about two hours from Charlotte and finished the drive in this morning. Still time to rest before my gig tonight.

Originally Posted by everybody's x

thanks Tony,
I thought I needed thin 13" hats?

That would be my vote, but I'm a weirdo. 13s, 14s, and 15s are all cool. Hell, I use a set of 18s a lot. 15s will give you a weightier sound in terms of pitch and darkness. 13s are a little more articulate and higher-pitched, and generally brighter, all else being equal. In either case, I've had more consitently good results with thinner hats.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[everybody's x]

well I got the Mapex's yesterday.

heads are STOCK

so I'll need a whole new set, of course I planned on that anyway.

the zanki ride is a hand hammered 18" italian job, a pre-runner to UFIPs

apparently a fairly well-regarded ride, sounds fantastic.

the 14" scimitars actually sound pretty good, I was surprised.

I ordered a pair of 13" sabian pros for good measure.

the stock bass drum pedal is painfully bad.

Overall I am pretty geeked about it

now if only I could play them

now anybody now of an online crash course in drum tuning?
I cant seem to find that issue of TapeOp

[toolskid]

Old Zildjian Avedis hats can be things of beauty...
The Zanki stuff is occasionally really cool...

Buy Bob Gatzens tuning DVD, its a great tool!

[everybody's x]

Originally Posted by toolskid

Buy Bob Gatzens tuning DVD, its a great tool!

thanks for the info

[warhead]

Originally Posted by everybody's x

now anybody now of an online crash course in drum tuning?
I cant seem to find that issue of TapeOp

http://home.earthlink.net/~prof.sound/

A great place to learn and get ideas at least about drum tuning.

War

[Drumsound]

Originally Posted by cgarges

And a great hang it was. Nice to see the Oxide Lounge in person and get a couple of nice RADAR tips from Tony. That's a cool little studio up there in Bloomington. Pogo is also super-sweet, like its owner, Mark Rubel. Fun times eating good food and listening to tunes and talking music and gear. A nice end to a pleasant week off.

By the way, Tony, it took us three hours to find a hotel this side of Knoxville-- I have no idea why everything was booked-up. We finally stopped about two hours from Charlotte and finished the drive in this morning. Still time to rest before my gig tonight.

The hang was great!! Sorry we talked so much that you didn't make it home...

Originally Posted by cgarges

That would be my vote, but I'm a weirdo. 13s, 14s, and 15s are all cool. Hell, I use a set of 18s a lot. 15s will give you a weightier sound in terms of pitch and darkness. 13s are a little more articulate and higher-pitched, and generally brighter, all else being equal. In either case, I've had more consitently good results with thinner hats.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

You are a weirdo, but not for liking certain hats!

13" hats drive me nuts. They always stick out to me. I'm sure there's a set or two somewhere that blend with a band, but I've yet to hear them.

Thin hats are key!

[toolskid]

no disrespect, but I think it could be quite misleading to start being quite so rigid re: hihat sizes. I choose cymbals on a per-song basis and is extremely genre specific. I will use 10,12,13,14,15,16,17,18" and many hybrid combos such as variations on china hats, different size top and bottoms, once even a zil-bell bottom, I've taped a timbale stick between the hats, covered them in gaffa tape, stretched tin foil over one side and played with brushes, used two dynobeat bottoms (thick hats can rule for some drum+bass flavours), two soundedge bottoms.. etc.. etc.. Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty fussy about choice and I have several sets that I LOOOVE and generally put up first!

[DHD]

Personally I don't like Mapex hardware. The lugs and the screw threads on the tuners are stiff and uneven making it very difficult to tune consistantly even with vasolene on the treads. But the shells are nice sounding. I own an old Saturn series as well as a pro M and overall love the sound.

The single kick pedal with the 3 beater surfaces that comes with the pro M kit is pretty good IMO.

The drumheads that come with the kit are the Taiwanese Remos and are worth changing for US Remos or Evans.

As for cymbals I'd recommend that you get something that you don't mind risking crap players breaking and then work out a hire scheme that allows you to recoupe your losses when the cymbals crack.

All the best with your drum tracking.

DHD

[everybody's x]

follow-up

new remos all the way around

got an Iron cobra double bass pedal for $150 (score!) these things are awesome, thanks for the heads up guys.

bought a set of 13" sabian pros
22" sabian pro ride (not the B8 crap "pros" either)

kept the zanki 18" ride/crash, traded the zildjian scimitars for a couple of thrones

got it tuned up and sounding great.

total cost so far

around $630!!! I think I did allright. thumbsup

I think i'm going to get a crappy little wuhan china and maybe a 16" crash and some rem-o-rings and I'll be done with it.

appreciate the input from the slutz

[chetatkinsdiet]

I'd skip the remorings, but everything else sounds cool. The ring from a well tuned set of drums is your friend. If you don't believe me, give a listen to some 70's Eagles records. Maybe that's your thing, but dead drums sound just that.
Having one for the snare is a session saver though....just in case.
later,
m

[r0ck1r0ck2]

Stax/Volt session drummer dropped a wallet on the snare head....you wanna fat snare?
you listen to BookerT etc....
plus....
that's just soo Money!

[T-rex]

Two things:

1. Learning to tune drums sucks like nothing else but is equally rewarding when you get it right. I have old 60's Gretsch and although I love them, tuning the toms is a bi*** because of the age and the less than perfect roundness of the shells!

2. Seeing everybody's x, dynomike, chetatkinsdiet and cgarges all in the same thread makes me all teary eyed for the Tape Op board. . .why oh why did it have to go away for so long. . .tell my girl I'll be gone till November. . .