Ludwig drum questions...

[PaulT28]

I am in the process of working out a deal to buy a Ludwig Drum set. I know it is not original as it has die cast hoops on the floor tom and rack tom. I'm not a collector so the die cast hoops do not bother me, but I am still curious about the set's age.

It is a 3 pc kit with a 26" floor tom, a 16" floor tom and a 12" rack tom. The bass drum is virgin and has a blue and olive badge numbered 3005436. It has reinforcement rings on the inside and has a white finish. It seems to be a champagne sparkle wrap with solid black wood hoops. The badge seems a bit loose from the shell...maybe the other two badges fell off. Is this a common problem...badges not adhering well on old drums that are wrapped?

The floor tom and rack tom do not have the badges, yet have the same matching rings and white interiors. The rack tom has is virgin with no holes for any bracket. The seller sat it on a snare stand. The floor tom legs all say "ludwig" on brackets.

All three drums are wrapped with the same champagne sparkle wrap. I've never owned a set of drums with a wrap, but does the wrap overlap from the factory or is it supposed to butt at the seam? All three of these drums overlap at the seam. It is clean and not de-laminating or peeling off.

Any help would be much appreciated. So do most white interiored Ludwig drums have reinforcing rings? Judging by the date on the bass drum, are these three plys or 6 plys? I cannot tell because the shells and rings are white.

Do these look like champagne sparkle or gold sparkle? I'm not a ludwig buff by any means.

Thanks!

[Chunkaway]

Originally Posted by PaulT28

I am in the process of working out a deal to buy a Ludwig Drum set. I know it is not original as it has die cast hoops on the floor tom and rack tom. I'm not a collector so the die cast hoops do not bother me, but I am still curious about the set's age.

It is a 3 pc kit with a 26" floor tom, a 16" floor tom and a 12" rack tom. The bass drum is virgin and has a blue and olive badge numbered 3005436. It has reinforcement rings on the inside and has a white finish. It seems to be a champagne sparkle wrap with solid black wood hoops. The badge seems a bit loose from the shell...maybe the other two badges fell off. Is this a common problem...badges not adhering well on old drums that are wrapped?

The floor tom and rack tom do not have the badges, yet have the same matching rings and white interiors. The rack tom has is virgin with no holes for any bracket. The seller sat it on a snare stand. The floor tom legs all say "ludwig" on brackets.

All three drums are wrapped with the same champagne sparkle wrap. I've never owned a set of drums with a wrap, but does the wrap overlap from the factory or is it supposed to butt at the seam? All three of these drums overlap at the seam. It is clean and not de-laminating or peeling off.

Any help would be much appreciated. So do most white interiored Ludwig drums have reinforcing rings? Judging by the date on the bass drum, are these three plys or 6 plys? I cannot tell because the shells and rings are white.

Do these look like champagne sparkle or gold sparkle? I'm not a ludwig buff by any means.

Thanks!

My best guess is those drums have been re-wrapped. The white interiors stopped in 1968ish, but the blue and olive badge didn't come in to play until several years later. A common occurrence among re-wrapped drums is a loose badge or a missing badge. From what you have described, the wrap was not done properly. I have a 1968 Ludwig kit and it does not have a big overlap. Just curious, but is there a date stamped on the inside of the drums?

Those drums (gold sparkle by the way) should be three ply -mohoganey/poplar/mohoganey, but honestly with what you have described, I don't know if I would definitely say that. They could have been painted after the fact.

If it was me, I'd probably pass on that kit unless I just wanted a beater kit.

[PaulT28]

I might not have been clear in my description of the wrap overlap. It is definitely not a big overlap, but it is also not a perfect butt joint. The one end overlaps slightly the other end. I'll ask the seller if they have date codes. I did not think to look for them. I'm not a ludwig expert so I was not sure what to look for. Do the old 3 plys with white interiors actually have reinforcing rings? Also, did Ludwig use solid black bass drum hoops? I see a lot with a little inlay that matches the wrap, with black towards the outer edges. Hhhhmmmm

Paul

[Chunkaway]

Originally Posted by PaulT28

I might not have been clear in my description of the wrap overlap. It is definitely not a big overlap, but it is also not a perfect butt joint. The one end overlaps slightly the other end. I'll ask the seller if they have date codes. I did not think to look for them. I'm not a ludwig expert so I was not sure what to look for. Do the old 3 plys with white interiors actually have reinforcing rings? Also, did Ludwig use solid black bass drum hoops? I see a lot with a little inlay that matches the wrap, with black towards the outer edges. Hhhhmmmm

Paul

My drums overlap but just barely. Ludwig made three plys from the 50s through the mid 70s. From the 50s until 1968 they used the mahogany/poplar/mahogany mix-white interiors. In the middle of 1968 they switched to maple/poplar/maple -these were clear interiors. All of these drums had the keystone badge. (The Ludwig Standard models-also with maple/poplar/maple- came in the early 70s and they had a grey/granitone interior. They had a triangular sort of badge and were considered to be the cheaper line of Ludwig's drums since the hardware was not as heavy duty.) All of these drums had reinforcement rings. (They didn't lose the re-rings until the mid to late 70s.)

The drums did not come standard with solid black hoops on the bass drum. They had inlays for the most part with the white interiors.

Just a quick fyi- there were MANY Japanese brands that copied Ludwig drums-right down to the white interiors with re-rings. Through the years people have changed the original Japanese hardware to Ludwig hardware for a variety of reasons. (I'm not saying this is what happened with the kit you are talking about, but I do want you to be aware of what CAN happen.)

The legs on the kick are definitely NOT original, and I am 99.9% certain that drum has certainly been modified in some way. My concern is, if I can figure out through crappy photos that it has been modified, what other modifications can't I see?

Just out of curiosity, how much is the person asking for the kit? Unless it is super cheap and you are just interested in this kit as a beater, I'd pass. There are a couple of vintage Ludwig kits (no 26" kicks though) on ebay right now that would be wonderful kits to own. Having said that, if you really like the sound of the drums, they might be worth the risk to you.

[PaulT28]

The seller did say that the kick drum spurs were not original. But from the inside of the kick (which I could see with a mirror), there are no other holes as if the new hardware required drilling new holes. If the drums didn't sound so dang good I wouldn't even consider them. I think the seller may be asking a lot, but I am no expert so I cannot be sure. He wants $800 for them.

I've already got a Tama Starclassic kit which covers my "modern" drum sound. These drums really sound "vintage" and are a far contrast from my Tama's. Not better, not worse, just different.

I'm, not one to want to scam anyone but what do you think is a fair offer to counter with? I'm not looking at them from a collector's standpoint, but I would like if they were in fact ludwigs, even if the hardware doesn't quite match...make sense?

I'm trying to see what does match up with the kit...is a gold sparkle a color that was offered by Ludwig in the era with white interiors and reinforcement rings? If so, maybe it is just a simple bass drum spur change. The die cast hoops don't scare me one bit. I know tons of drummers who change stamped hoops to the diecast for better tuning stability.

Gosh, I don't know what to do. I am in love with the color, the sizes, the fact that the kick and rack tom dont have mounting holes in them...they sound huge....ugh decisions decisions decisions.

[Chunkaway]

The real question is how desperate are you for a 26" kick? I don't think Ludwig made a 26" kick in regular production until 1970 or so, which wouldn't really match up with the interior being white. It is probably an old marching drum, which is why you didn't see any extra holes. $800 is way too high for that kit, but if you want a 26" kick, then it may be worth it to you. By the way, I have a gold sparkle snare from 1962-white interiors- so Ludwig made that color for quite a while.

For me, I'd go with something like this

Ludwig 1970 Standard Gold Strata 4 Pc. Set No Res! - eBay (item 320353973528 end time Apr-02-09 20:15:00 PDT)


Or this one:

Ludwig 70's 3 Ply Maple 22, 12, 13, 16 Kit - eBay (item 280328376207 end time Apr-05-09 19:00:00 PDT)

Or this one:
1964 Ludwig Super Classic Drum Set Blue sparkle - eBay (item 300304506449 end time Apr-06-09 18:33:07 PDT)

Any of those kits would most likely sound great. If you are really wanting the gold sparkle kit-and I have 68 and a 2008 in that wrap, so I know how stellar it looks- I wouldn't pay more than $600-$650. The lack of badges is a HUGE issue if you ever decide to sell that kit. The modified bass drum doesn't help either.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by PaulT28

He wants $800 for them.

Pass on the kit.
Real Ludwig's sound fantastic and you just don't know for sure if these are real. Certainly the price is too much IMO.
You say you don't care about diecast hoops, but they definitely affect the sound.
I have played plenty of vintage Ludwig sets with the original flange hoops. They sound lovely and are not problematic at all to tune.
The lack of badges is an issue too.
No mounting holes on the small tom - highly suspicious.
You've received good advice above.

But overall, vintage Ludwig drums are not scarce, or particularly expensive.
You could probably find a nice kit today on Ebay for around $800.
Be patient and buy the right Ludwig kit.

[PaulT28]

Thanks for the advice guys. I even posted a link to this page to the seller. He seems like a genuine guy and not a ludwig buff and I don't feel from the vibe I got from him that he was in any way shape or form trying to pull a fast one on me.

[Chunkaway]

So, did you buy it or what? Ya got me all interested!

[nuklhdned]

hello, i realize this post is from a long time ago but do you still have the champagne sparkle or gold drums,if so would you be interested in selling them if the price was right ........323 443 5738 thanks