A snare perfect for acoustic sessions

[dounle]

I've been invited to play with a friend I met through the local music scene in my city, I'm excited to try out his folk pshycadelic ideas, and I need a snare that fits vocaly within the settings I'll be playing with him.

Essentially I'll be setting up in an untreated room (probably), against him who will hopefully plug in his acousitc guitar into some sort of amp. What I'm looking for is a very focused tone that is dry to a degree with controlled overtones. I've never played a wooden snare and I've always hated the ring I get from the aliminium snares I've played with all my life. I want something warm for a change, I'm sick of the cold ringing embrace of metal.

I guess I want something that isn't loud, maybe 4 plys? But with just enough crack to tell people I'm here, but that of course will depend on how hard I hit it. I want to go into my local store and try out some snares, but you know how I love to ask the internet for it's opinion and no less for the slutiest people around.

I don't want something loud, like a 4 ply, but I've alway thought the lesser the ply the more ring, I don't want that.

Am I asking for too much? Can a wooden snare be what I hope for? I hope it is, I've heard copper is really mellow but maybe not so versatile.

Wooden Picolo
Ludwig Acrolite - good all rounder
Ludwig 400 Supraphonic - snappy, poppy
pearl soprano - crack, hip hop
Sonor Jungle Snare - hip hop
4x14 Brady. Jarrah wood
Craviotto
Gretsch maple

Here are some of my notes.

[biggator6]

I've never played a wooden snare and I've always hated the ring I get from the aliminium snares I've played with all my life.

So what HAVE you been playing?

I have an old birch Premier that has a great dry tone to it, my maple Signia would be second.

[666666]

If you want wood, go with a thin shell... thinnest you can get. 4-ply should be good.

Any type of "soft" metal should be fine too... thin brass, bronze, etc... go for a cheaper one with a thin gauge.

I still might vote for a 4-ply maple though. Perhaps a 6.5 deep. Some of the brass / bronze etc metal drums out there can be too "muddy" and sometimes have an unpleasant tone, but you can't go wrong with a good maple shell.

Don't over-think all this... the sound you yield will be mostly a function of how you tune the drum and how you play the drum... the shell is a factor but not as critical, so don't drive yourself too crazy. Spend more of your time and energy experimenting with different drum heads and sticks, different tunings and stick technique.

[HeavyG]

...any good quality snare should be versatile enough to use in this setting. It is more about the touch of the drummer than anything...don't drive yourself crazy about the shell and depth. Buy a workhorse snare (Black Beauty Supra, 400 Supra, Acrolite, Dynasonic, Radio King, Craviotto, etc)...you should have everything you need.

[ArnieInTheSky]

1. Manu Katche Sig 14x5.5

2. Birch Custom Nouveau. 14x5.5

3. Pacific FS or even a Taye Tour Pro. Basswood sounds like a quiter maple to me. Still meaty but less projection.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by HeavyG

...any good quality snare should be versatile enough to use in this setting. It is more about the touch of the drummer than anything...

I agree. 'ring' and loudness are really two different things.
There is no drum that is too 'ringy'. All my drums are controlled with small amounts of tape, or tape and tissue. It's important to focus on tone and quality of tone.
I always use single-ply wood shell drums - Craviotto, Radio King, N&C. The tone is fantastic and any unwanted ring is controlled by me.
I would not choose any of the shallow drums you list. Shallow drums tend to be high pitched and piercing. Those attributes would be awful for an acoustic gig IMO.
Just choose a quality drum of an average dimension 5 x 14" to 6.5 x 14".
If money were no object I would choose either a 6.5" Craviotto or 6.5" Black Beauty.
But the Acrolite is a workhorse drum and cheap to buy, so that would be another recommendation.

[dounle]

Originally Posted by biggator6

So what HAVE you been playing?

Just aluminum really, really loud with a fantastic crack, was perfect live in noisy venues, but when jamming in a room it was awful, but I managed with some dampening.

Originally Posted by 666666

Don't over-think all this... the sound you yield will be mostly a function of how you tune the drum and how you play the drum... the shell is a factor but not as critical, so don't drive yourself too crazy.

I think that's very true, I just want to get a good snare drum and spend a couple of days experimenting and tweaking it, getting a good sound, and then spend a couple more days.

Originally Posted by chrisso

I always use single-ply wood shell drums - Craviotto, Radio King, N&C. The tone is fantastic and any unwanted ring is controlled by me.
I would not choose any of the shallow drums you list. Shallow drums tend to be high pitched and piercing. Those attributes would be awful for an acoustic gig IMO.
Just choose a quality drum of an average dimension 5 x 14" to 6.5 x 14".
If money were no object I would choose either a 6.5" Craviotto or 6.5" Black Beauty.

I heard a cravitto snare on youtube and it sounded awesome, great tone with just enough crack, it's just out of my price range though. I think I will go for the deeper snare, because I do want a slightly deeper sound. Why do you play a single ply snare? What sound do you get from just a single ply?

Right now I want a maple 4 ply 14*6.5 snare.
But I want that acrolite as well.
Now I want both.

[biggator6]

Right now I want a maple 4 ply 14*6.5 snare.
But I want that acrolite as well.

Acros can be grabbed off of Craigslist for $50-$100 in decent shape.. I think I paid $50 and it just needed new heads, otherwise great shape.

For a wood drum, grab some keller-shell drum from one of the million builders out there.. Should be able to get a nice maple snare for a couple hundred bucks.

I recommend it a lot - but go over to drumforum.. there's a lot of buying/selling.

[nomoreflakes]

ludwig l402b Chrome on brass. very versatile always works from jazz to whack the **** out of it.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by dounle

Why do you play a single ply snare? What sound do you get from just a single ply?

In general they have a nice, sonorous tone.
No glued together plies.
Of course ply drums sound great too, but pretty much all of my wood shell snares are single-ply.
With regard to 4 ply, I'm not sure anyone could hear a difference between 3 ply, 4 ply, 8 ply etc...

[666666]

Originally Posted by chrisso

...With regard to 4 ply, I'm not sure anyone could hear a difference between 3 ply, 4 ply, 8 ply etc...

A difference can surely be heard as you change the thickness of the shell. Typically, the ply count is related to shell thickness, at least the way most of the common shells are made today.

I have a Pearl 4-ply snare (forget the shell thickness spec, but it's pretty "thin") and also a Pearl 8-ply (which is noticeably thicker)... all other attributes of these snares are the same, same shell depth and diameter, same hoops, same hardware, same bearing edges, same snare beds, same snares, etc... the two snare drums behave and sound VERY different from each other. I attribute this sonic difference to the physical thickness of the shell (density and thus resonance factor, pitch, etc), not ply count specifically... but again, typically, ply count IS related to shell thickness the way most shells are marketed and sold... so we have to be careful to not get confused here.

When comparing wood snare drums, it would probably make more sense to look at the shell thickness specification as opposed to the ply count... at least if you are trying to get an idea of how the drum might sound / behave.

But I'd agree that if you had two multi-ply snare drums, all aspects were identical INCLUDING shell THICKNESS, but only the ply count was different, you would not hear a difference... assuming the same wood and shell forming process was used. Well, there would be a difference but perhaps VERY slight.

I've even had different brass snare drums of different shell thickness... often the shell thickness spec is not readily advertised, you might have to pull out your micrometer and measure yourself. There can be a huge sonic difference in two seemingly identical brass snares if the shell thickness is different, even by a small amount. I had a cheaper brass snare once, VERY thin gauge shell, you could just about dent it by pushing on the side of the shell with your finger... this drum had a very dark, muddy, unclear behavior to it... very low pitch, very pillowy, no definition. I then found an old used Tama brass snare (same exact size as the other) that had a slightly thicker gauge brass shell... sonic difference was night and day, the slightly thicker Tama shell provided way more clarity and bite by comparison while still sounding like brass.

I guess the point here... when comparing snare drums, put focus on the shell thickness... not necessarily ply count.

Of course, not that I need to say it, but in general, a thinner shell will have a lower pitch and less volume, a super thick shell will have a high pitch and can be very loud. For recording, I tend to prefer wood shells that are on the thinner side (like a Pearl 4-ply for instance), they're generally more controllable, more tone, more sensitive, etc. A super thick shell can be ringy and obnoxious in the studio, but of course might be welcomed in a live situation where you are trying to cut through a wall of guitars or whatever.

I will mention that I was at a recording session recently where a guy had a super thick bell brass type snare... but the guy was a relatively light hitter... and the music was pretty heavy, wall of guitars, etc... it all worked out well in the end, the extra brightness and volume of the super thick snare was the perfect compliment to the player's light touch... perfect balance... end result was excellent... just found it interesting. If this snare had been hit very hard, it would have been a problem. I personally tend to hit very hard, perhaps why a "thin" 4-ply maple works well for me in the studio. So, what I am concluding here, it may make sense for a player to match shell thickness to his or her playing style... a light touch should be complimented with a "louder" snare (thicker shell) and vise-versa... etc.

[svart]

I've always hated the ring I get from the aliminium snares I've played with all my life.

Ludwig Acrolite - good all rounder

You do realize that acrolites ARE aluminum as well right?

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by 666666

A difference can surely be heard as you change the thickness of the shell.

I'm not saying there isn't a difference, I'm just saying it can often be hard to hear.
Obviously listening in isolation in a studio is a perfect scenario, but in the context of music? Or on a recording?
Listen to the top40 and you wouldn't be able to tell what snare was being used.
A guy on another forum recently offered a blind test of 4 completely different snare drums, but tuned to the same pitch. He even listed the drums, but no one could hear a tangible difference.
I think it's audible from the drum chair, or when you are honing in on a single drum from behind the mixing desk, but in 99% of situations ply number or thickness is super subtle.

[666666]

Originally Posted by chrisso

I'm not saying there isn't a difference, I'm just saying it can often be hard to hear. Obviously listening in isolation in a studio is a perfect scenario, but in the context of music? Or on a recording? Listen to the top40 and you wouldn't be able to tell what snare was being used. A guy on another forum recently offered a blind test of 4 completely different snare drums, but tuned to the same pitch. He even listed the drums, but no one could hear a tangible difference.
I think it's audible from the drum chair, or when you are honing in on a single drum from behind the mixing desk, but in 99% of situations ply number or thickness is super subtle.

Interesting.

Well, I was indeed thinking of all this from the perspective of the drummer, listening from the drum chair, and/or a producer, listening in a room while drum tracking is taking place. Once on tape, of course you are now dealing with other variables, mic, mic placement, pre, etc that will effect what you ultimately hear on tape. These other things in the chain may only serve to reduce the subtleties of what is actually happening... but perhaps this is partly your point.

I should try to find this snare drum test you speak of. I wonder how the drums were played during the test. Hopefully it's just not a few taps in the center of the head only... in my opinion that would be useless. To really experience the differences I think you'd need to hear all these drums really being "played"... really laying into them, making them sing, heavy rudiments, rimshots, etc... and then have a mic perhaps a few feet away, a very accurate condenser mic with an accurate pre to pick up EVERYTHING. Perhaps the test IS like this... that would be neat. I gotta check it out.

Well, surely from the drummer's chair anyway, and also largely from a playability aspect, a thin shell feels and sounds way different than a thick shell... big difference as far as I'm concerned. Ply count on the other hand doesn't mean much to me.

Another thing though... you say that in the test, all the drums were tuned to the same pitch... but I'd guess that in a real world situation for a given drummer, achieving this certain specific pitch would mean that one drum might be tuned "too tight" and another drum might be tuned "too loose", etc... thus, some of the drums may effectively be tuned "inappropriately" per their design.. and this throws a monkey wrench into the test. It's possible that if, in that test, the chosen pitch was different, perhaps much lower or much higher, the differences in shell thickness might be more noticeable sonically. Just speculating.

Also, thick shells just behave differently than thin shells, regardless of the core sound. Thick shells tend to cause more head ring, more overtones, etc, often more muffling is needed, usually not the case for thinner shells, etc... are such issues critical to how the snare sounds on your next album? Well, after you tune the drum per taste, choose the "right" heads, dampening, etc, and then stick it through an API pre, and then gets mixed down through an 1176 and a 550B or whatever, perhaps the subtleties just don't matter too much.

One thing I'll mention... I like tight tunings, I like a tight head and a lot of rebound... this is also a reason I tend to prefer thinner shells as they provide a slightly lower pitch fundamental which helps offset the tight tuning... with thick shells, after I get the head where I like it, the pitch is often "too high" for my liking... and the drum just cuts "too much". Perhaps it is due to my tight tunings that I notice a larger difference in shell thickness. Point is, the whole issue of shell thickness should also be a function of how the drummer plays and what the end goal is. While shell thickness may not make a large sonic difference for some drummers (based on how they tune and play), it may make a large difference for other drummers (that may tune and play much differently).

And, I'm sure the shell SIZE has something to do with all this as well. Shell thickness may be more noticeable with a "larger" snare like a 6.5"X14" than a "smaller" snare like a 3.5"X13" or whatever... or perhaps vise-versa.

This stuff can indeed drive you nuts after a while, that's why I finally went out a few years back and picked up a ton of different snares, and checked out tons more at different studios etc just merely to experience them all. Tried to let go of all the scientific theories about shells etc and just simply PLAYED the drums... and listened. PER individual, this is really the ONLY way to know what one likes and/or what one needs... just like any other pro audio gear really.

[SANDS]

Originally Posted by dounle

I've been invited to play with a friend I met through the local music scene in my city, I'm excited to try out his folk pshycadelic ideas, and I need a snare that fits vocaly within the settings I'll be playing with him.

Essentially I'll be setting up in an untreated room (probably), against him who will hopefully plug in his acousitc guitar into some sort of amp. What I'm looking for is a very focused tone that is dry to a degree with controlled overtones. I've never played a wooden snare and I've always hated the ring I get from the aliminium snares I've played with all my life. I want something warm for a change, I'm sick of the cold ringing embrace of metal.

I guess I want something that isn't loud, maybe 4 plys? But with just enough crack to tell people I'm here, but that of course will depend on how hard I hit it. I want to go into my local store and try out some snares, but you know how I love to ask the internet for it's opinion and no less for the slutiest people around.

I don't want something loud, like a 4 ply, but I've alway thought the lesser the ply the more ring, I don't want that.

Am I asking for too much? Can a wooden snare be what I hope for? I hope it is, I've heard copper is really mellow but maybe not so versatile.

Wooden Picolo
Ludwig Acrolite - good all rounder
Ludwig 400 Supraphonic - snappy, poppy
pearl soprano - crack, hip hop
Sonor Jungle Snare - hip hop
4x14 Brady. Jarrah wood
Craviotto
Gretsch maple

Here are some of my notes.

Sounds like a lot of assumptions. A lot of maybes, probablies, possiblies. I would not over think it yet and jam with him and see what happens. It might take a different batter head, or maybe different size sticks, hot rods for more of the top head sound, who knows.

We have to remember being that we are all slutz, that we automatically want to buy another product to solve and rationalize our addictions. I would play it out and make a sound (haha, sorry had to) decision after you have had a chance to jam.

my two cents

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by dounle

I've been invited to play with a friend I met through the local music scene in my city, I'm excited to try out his folk pshycadelic ideas, and I need a snare that fits vocaly within the settings I'll be playing with him.

Essentially I'll be setting up in an untreated room (probably), against him who will hopefully plug in his acousitc guitar into some sort of amp. What I'm looking for is a very focused tone that is dry to a degree with controlled overtones. I've never played a wooden snare and I've always hated the ring I get from the aliminium snares I've played with all my life. I want something warm for a change, I'm sick of the cold ringing embrace of metal.

I guess I want something that isn't loud, maybe 4 plys? But with just enough crack to tell people I'm here, but that of course will depend on how hard I hit it. I want to go into my local store and try out some snares, but you know how I love to ask the internet for it's opinion and no less for the slutiest people around.

I don't want something loud, like a 4 ply, but I've alway thought the lesser the ply the more ring, I don't want that.

Am I asking for too much? Can a wooden snare be what I hope for? I hope it is, I've heard copper is really mellow but maybe not so versatile.

Wooden Picolo
Ludwig Acrolite - good all rounder
Ludwig 400 Supraphonic - snappy, poppy
pearl soprano - crack, hip hop
Sonor Jungle Snare - hip hop
4x14 Brady. Jarrah wood
Craviotto
Gretsch maple

Here are some of my notes.

use bamboo sticks as opposed to worrying about selecting a snare
even a huge bonham snare can be tame with the bamboo sticks
usually has the right sound for acoustic