Sabian buries cymbals to get better tone?

[BarbieDoll]

Hi! I read here today:
News Sabian Artisan 21" Medium - Audiofanzine

that Sabian buries its cymbals in the dirt to age them and get a better tone. I'm not a drummer, so I am not sure...but does this really work? If so, by what process exactly?

[joeq]

I know of a few drummers who bury their cymbals to 'age' them, but this is the first I heard of a company doing it as an official part of their manufacturing process.

It is kind of like washing your new jeans a dozen times to break them in. As a metal cymbal ages, the metal begins tarnish. When a cymbal has some tarnish on it, it won't resonate the very highest frequencies as well, making it sound darker or more 'mellow'.

If you put tape or paint on the cymbal it would muffle it way too much, but a thin patina of rust and dirt is considered by some to be 'just right'.

Some drummers like their cymbals bright and shiny, and not just for looks. Other drummers, and I am one of them, refuse to EVER clean or polish their cymbals.. I never buried them in the back yard though!

If you search for "cleaning cymbals" you should find some threads that discuss this issue at length

[Jax]

Joeq, are you referring to Zildjian's earth ride? I believe that was the series Zildjian used to bury in the '80s, and the only genre with which the rides truly found favor were metal and "heavy" rock drumming. The rides were known to have practically no sustain and gobs of shrill, cutting ping. They were horrid sounding if crashed, and the bell was insanely loud.

I've never played a Sabian vault cymbal, so I can't comment on what to expect. I have played earth rides and found them useful in the above contexts. With earth rides, I can't say what effect aging in the soil and elements would have on the sound because there was no way to hear what the ride sounded like before it was buried alive.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Jax

Joeq, are you referring to Zildjian's earth ride? I believe that was the series Zildjian used to bury in the '80s,

actually no, I heard of the Earth Rides, but I never realized the Earth Ride actually spent time in the Earth (I mean other than as unsmelted Ore) But I knew a few drummers who would go to the store, select whatever cymbal by whatever means, and then bury it themselves. Dig it up a month or two later, and play it.

I had always assumed it was a Wildcat technique.

With earth rides, I can't say what effect aging in the soil and elements would have on the sound because there was no way to hear what the ride sounded like before it was buried alive.

All I know is that one time, in a well-meaning gesture, a student of mine polished all my well-tarnished cymbals for me as a 'surprise'. .

They got much brighter sonically as well as visually. I don't think it was a drastic change in the metal- , I would say it was just the same basic sound as the tarnished cymbal but with more highs.

I really did not like the sound change at all, and I have never polished them since.

[666666]

So we're saying that common "dirt" helps "age" a cymbal faster? I wonder why that is? I wonder what it is about "dirt" that helps the metal tarnish faster? I'd think that moisture would help tarnish metal faster, perhaps it's just because dirt commonly contains moisture??? But dirt often does NOT contain moisture. If it is determined that moisture is the leading factor for tarnishing, then check your soil before burying.. if you have sandy earth in your yard, and especially if it's hot out with the sun beating down all the time, your earth may be extremely dry, you may be better off just resting the cymbal outside in a cool, dark, damp place if possible... like in an old shed or garage, etc.

Personally, I like clean shiny cymbals. I can tell by ear once they've tarnished "too much", then it's time to clean. I don't care how they look, but I like the extended upper frequencies. Cymbals just sound more vibrant in general when they're clean in my opinion. When "dirty", not only can they sound "darker", but also "duller". I prefer brighter and more vibrant. Of course YMMV depending on the type and size of cymbals, style of music, etc. I could imagine situations with certain cymbals where I might want them dirty, darker and duller... but more often I'm doing things that are "faster", with a lot of quick accent hits, often going for a quick intimate dynamic sound in general (as opposed to a larger room-ish mushy kind of sound).

I own and use an old Earth Ride too... don't like it for studio but it works ok for live use. I actually tried to clean it once, and it did not get much brighter. It's darkish appearance I think is more than just tarnish. I bought this cymbal new back in probably 1985 or so, still sounds the same. It seems like the type of cymbal that you could drop and it wouldn't crack... which is why I use it for a lot for live situations now. It's more of a brutish sounding cymbal, not pretty, good for heavier music / metal, etc.. it cuts well in loud live situations.

So, in sum, can any metallurgists here comment on what is in fact the FASTEST way to tarnish the type of metal used in cymbals? Is moisture what we're looking for here? Or is there some element in common "dirt / earth" that helps tarnish the metal?

I wonder if there is some other type of agent that could be sprayed or applied to a cymbal to help give it the "tarnished" sound. Maybe spray it with hair-spray, or coat it with some type of heavy car wax, etc.... anything like this applied to the underside of the cymbal would stay on almost indefinitely unless wiped off and would surely provide some level of dampening, even if very small. I would imagine that the tarnish-effect COULD be duplicated well enough that even a purist, blindfolded, could not tell the difference, but of course the purist will always NEED to have the tarnish anyway.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

If you want to quickly tarnish your cymbals, use wet ashes.

do I detect the Voice of Experience?


new ways to age your cymbals:

hang them in a smokey bar
use them as a coffee table
use them as a wok
launch them into low-Earth orbit and then retrieve them with the Space Shuttle
put them in the freezer for 6 months.
put them in a tumbler with 1000 drum sticks
wash them 100 times with lemon juice
wolf urine

[thenoiseflower]

Originally Posted by joeq

...wolf urine

+1

[Dr. Mordo]

I am on the fence on the whole tarnished cymbal debate. However, I'll bring up an argument an old friend made.

His point was that ideally you go to a store, play a bunch of cymbals, and then buy the one you like the most. Although, these days you go to a store, play a bunch of cymbals, and then buy a similar but ultimately different cymbal from Musicians Friend or even better Midwest Percussion. You went to all the trouble of finding a cymbal that sounded good. Why would you then want to change the sound? How do you know that it will sound better after it is tarnished? I'm pretty sure that if I bought a cymbal and then decided it sounded too bright, I'd just return it and buy a different cymbal instead of burying it.

These days you can find a cymbal for almost every taste. From the super bright and abrasive, to something that sounds like it has masking tape on it like the Sabian Dejohnette line (which I love, incidentally), to Bosphorus and other cymbals that sound like they were hammered by a Turk in 1911.

So, once again, why would you bother spending time just to pick out a cymbal you like, and then immediately change the sound? My last ride, a 22" Zildjian Constantinople Medium Thin Low is to my ears EXACTLY the sound of Tony Williams' ride from his Miles Davis period. I literally spent hours playing cymbals at Atlanta Prop before I bought it, and I tried every brand and line they had before I bought it. I have a friend who works there, so I was actually just screwing around, but when I found this cymbal things got serious. After I realized how amazing it was, I had to buy it. The absolute last thing I want is for it to get tarnished and change.

Ok, but if you go to a store and Sabian has already buried it and it sounds good. I guess it'd make sense to buy it and then try to clean it just enough to keep that sound. But what if you cleaned it too thoroughly?

[666666]

I just finished watching an old Buddy Rich performance on DVD... drums and cymbals sounded incredible, great recording... I then noticed during a close-up shot that Buddy had a few strips of what appeared to be black electrical tape under the ride cymbal. It worked for him. For some reason I just can't picture Buddy burying cymbals in his backyard anyway.

[drumzealot]

Originally Posted by 666666

I just finished watching an old Buddy Rich performance on DVD... drums and cymbals sounded incredible, great recording... I then noticed during a close-up shot that Buddy had a few strips of what appeared to be black electrical tape under the ride cymbal. It worked for him. For some reason I just can't picture Buddy burying cymbals in his backyard anyway.

I think he buried a few of his trombone players back there.

[666666]

Originally Posted by drumzealot

I think he buried a few of his trombone players back there.

LOL!!!!!!!!!

[joeq]

Originally Posted by drumzealot

I think he buried a few of his trombone players back there.

when the FBI dug them up, they noticed they had been buried _with their trombones.

The brass had acquired a lovely patina that warmed up the sound considerably.

[MrJulius]

Everything you ever wanted to know.

Ignore the inside jokes, we're a close community.

Buried Cymbals: Has Sabian Lost the Plot? - Cymbalholic Forums

[adamcal]

I buried death magnetic for a few weeks, still sounded like shit.