Modern Rock Drum Sizes

[audiovisceral]

I'm planning a new rock drum kit and trying to piece together something that will be versatile but still modern and powerful enough to cut through thick mixes.

So the basic setup I'm looking at is:

24x18 kick
13x9 tom
16x14 floor tom
18x16 floor tom
14x6.5/7 snare (I'm thinking about doing a 7 maple for extra power and picking up a 6.5 Black Hawg Black Beauty clone as an alternate...)

Whatever the sizes, I'll probably end up making them myself from Keller maple shells (same as Spaun, Truth, Orange, SJC, other custom companies etc.), so I should be able to get anything I want.

Looking around, I've noticed things with young drummers in particular really seem to be trending towards bigger sizes. eg. Truth Drums seems to be selling a lot of 24x20 (or even 24x22) kicks and 14x8 snares.

I think that's probably a bit too big for my tastes. But listening to some clips of bands that use them, I think I see the appeal - if you can pound them hard enough to move both heads, you get one hell of a massive sound, which is what's needed if you want to cut through modern loudness without a lot of samples.

Of course, the downside would be if you play lightly, the resonant head won't budge, so you lose expressiveness/versatility.

I'm hoping the setup above will give me the best of both worlds.


Thoughts?

[BLUElightCory]

I'm a huge fan of larger diameter drums, but you do have to be able to kill them to really make them sing. I also prefer birch drums personally, generally the larger maple drums are a bit too bassy and don't have quite enough attack for my tastes (for rock music).

The sizes you mentioned look good, my only caveat would be to make sure you space the toms appropriately (i.e. keep at least 2" difference in diameter between each tom) so that you can tune them distinctly. Don't get a 12 and a 13 or a 13 and a 14, etc.

The deep-shelled maple snares are nice too, but we always seem to end up using a 14 x 6.5" Ludwig Black Beauty at my studio.....Food for thought.

[warhead]

I agree keep the sizes at least 2" apart on toms.

I also gotta say I LOVE the sound of a 12" tom.

Hard to make them sound bad, at least compared to the other sizes.

12 / 14 / 16 would be awesome, having a 10" around for acoustic and funk type players who like to reach for that high pitch would be nice also. That combo of toms, the 10" being the luxury size, would cover just about anything.

18" floor toms are fairly rare, it would be a luxury to have one so I would put it low on the priority list.

I would invest more money in having more than one snare really, grab a 14x6.5" and maybe a 4" deep one as well.

If you only buy one snare, grab a 14x5.5" as I find it to be the most versatile size for tuning high and low.

22" kicks to me are the most common and versatile size, I would pick it over a 24" to have around.

War

[jayfrigo]

I tend to like smaller drums tuned low. The above seem too big for a studio kit to me. However, I will say that I have heard some awesome 13" toms. It's an odd size, but I've had good luck with them. That's the one part of the list that I liked.

The big drum vibe can certainly work great, but it's a bit of a one trick pony to me, and it's not my favorite trick for many sessions. When you gotta have that sound, nothing else will do, but for the rest of the time, smaller kits can sound huge when recorded. For modern rock, big sounds don't always mean big drums. YMMV.

[Nutmeg II.]

Regular sized drums cut better.
12-14-16-22...

I play a 22x18 kick but find my self wishing I had a 22x16 instead.

If I would play a 24 kick I would go for 14 depth maybe 16, but never more.

I can get enough lowend rumble down to 35Hz from my 22 kick, a 24 would only take away that attack.

BTW there are several folks playing metal on a 20 kick.

[audiovisceral]

Ya, all your comments summarize the exact debate I'm having with myself.

I fully recognize a 22/12/14(or 13)/16 would be more versatile, but on the other hand, I'm a drummer myself and really find the sound a bit boring - to me, that setup just sounds like virtually every record for the past 15 years.

On the other hand, while the 24/13/16/18 might be a bit more of a one trick pony, I think it may be the trick I want.

The other thing I'm figuring is I have access to a tonne of great rental/pawn shops from which I can pick up a nice standard 22-based Yamaha or Tama 5-piece any time I want. But I can't pick up a 24-based set the same way, so building the bigger drums may actually give me more versatility in the long run.

I found a kit with the same dimensions I'm looking at, so I'm going to try and demo one local to be sure I know what I'm getting myself into before it's too late.
Buy Pacific Drums by DW 805 Musician's Friend

But I think that's still the direction I'm leaning, with 22x18 kit rentals as needed.

Thanks guys. Any more comments, keep em coming.

[666666]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

I tend to like smaller drums tuned low.

I agree.

The above seem too big for a studio kit to me.

Well, one thing is for sure, 18" diameter toms are a big headache to tune, if not nearly impossible. And "tall" 16" toms (like a 16X16) are also often very hard to tune... so for a 16" tom, keep the depth on the short side, like 13" or 14", helps a bit for whatever reason. But I admit, I DO prefer my largest tom to be a 16".... you can get a nice deep pitch out of a good 14" or 15" diameter tom (if you tune it nice and loose), but a well tuned 16" can really lay down the law. Forget the 18" though for studio use.

I will say that I have heard some awesome 13" toms. It's an odd size, but I've had good luck with them...

I agree. The 13"X9" size, for whatever reason, really works. I have yet to come across a decent 13X9 that didn't tune up wonderfully and easily. I have a lot less luck with 12" toms... though 12's are ok.

For modern rock, big sounds don't always mean big drums. YMMV.

And again, I agree. In the studio I now use a "four-tom" kit consisting of 10, 12, 14 and 16... OR, if I only need three toms, I'll use another kit that is 10, 13 and 16. In both cases, typically, the 10, 12 and 13 get used the most. All drums are tuned almost as loose as they can go and provide a good relatively deep pitch. I do play a lot of hard rock, as well as progeessive and jazz-fusion... these kits are perfect for this.

If you only want three toms, here are some good configurations to consider, from small-ish to big-ish:

10, 12, 14
10, 12, 15
10, 13, 16
12, 14, 16

Of course, in the old days, one popular set-up was the 12, 13, 16... but as others have mentioned, having toms that are only 1" apart in terms of diameter is not so wonderful... it can work, but I tend to like more pitch separation in the toms, so try to stick to at least 2" apart if possible.

I've had some 15" toms that were KILLER... so the 10, 12, 15 configuration might be very neat... not too big, not too small, and a nice wide separation.

But if you want the "deepest" pitches possible, try the 12, 14, 16...

One thing to consider though, if you are going to mount two toms above the kick, make sure not to get toms that are too deep, otherwise you will be forced to adjust them potentially "too high"... I use a 22" kick and try to keep any upper toms no deeper than 9".

Here's a pic of my "three-tom" 10, 13, 16 kit... it's a custom Smith kit, exact sizes are:
7.5"X10"
9"X13"
14"X16"
16"X22"



Of course, other factors that affect pitch are shell depth, shell thickness, type of shell, heads and even the hoops... if you are looking for the deepest pitches possible, you can still keep the diameters on the "small" side (as recommended), but go for a very thin maple shell, like the stuff that DW puts out or similar, etc (I forget the exact thickness). Also, I think cast hoops can really help achieve a low relative pitch since they allow you to tune "looser" due to providing more even and stable tension on the heads... you can go way down before the heads start to wrinkle. (Though I tend to like flanged hoops anyway.)

[666666]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

I fully recognize a 22/12/14(or 13)/16 would be more versatile, but on the other hand, I'm a drummer myself and really find the sound a bit boring - to me, that setup just sounds like virtually every record for the past 15 years....

I can appreciate your concern here, I think it's indeed important to always make a unique sound.

But keep in mind, you will achieve the most "uniqueness" with the tuning of the drums, and HOW you PLAY them. In other words, even if every record over the past 15 years was tracked with a 12, 14, 16, you can still use this same exact configuration, but just be sure to spend time with the tuning to achieve YOUR own sound... and then play the balls off the kit!!!!... if you get this all happening, you will then sound NOTHING like any of the albums done over the past 15 years.... so, do not worry about using the "same old sizes".

A 13, 16, 18 is surely more of a "one-trick-pony", and while it may initially seem nifty, it may soon become just as boring and even frustrating when you find you cannot tune them up the way you want and have other headaches, etc. Doesn't mean that a 13, 16, 18 is terrible or useless, but for general studio use, it may ultimately prove to be limiting.

But of course, as always, YMMV.

[biggator6]

24x18 may look cool on stage, but it's a big drum.

If you go 24 for the studio - make it shallower.. 14 or 16 at most.

The problem with huge drums like that is that they work best when tuned up pretty high (go listen to Bonham - the measuring stick for big drums). JB used huge drums, but he tuned them really high like a big-band player.. then, of course, recorded in huge rooms with lots of room sound - not sure big drums like that would take close-micing so well.

[Suspects]

Actually, deep diameter bass drums (18" and deeper) are problems for close micing with the conventional ported front head approach. If the inside of the drum is not stuffed with something, the interior creates it's own "room tone", for lack of a better term, which a mic poking through a 4" or 6" port will clearly pick up. The problem is that this natural "reverb" is usually not very musical and rarely sits well in the mix. I usually have to stuff big bass drums full of towels or blankets to dry them up enough to record well...

Also have to agree that 18" toms are generally a PITA to record. The tuning intervals generally dictate a low enough pitch that the heads can get flappy and the drums aren't very articulate. The tuning can muddy up the kick tone as well when they are played together. I have 14" X 14", 16" X 16" and 18'' X 18" Recording Custom toms, and the 14" drum is by far the best recording of the bunch...

Just my $0.02

Dave/Suspect

[T_MIX]

I have several kits from shallow shelled Mapex pro M's to a big Ayotte custom kit, and have to reiterate what has been posted above.

Live, a deep kick works well, but close miced, you have to have one heck of a kick foot to pull it off, and to be honest, there is no need. A 14 inch deep kick sounds massive, even a 16 inch deep starts to get mumbly unless the snot is being kicked out of it.
The closer a drum get to being "square" in the diameter verses depth, the harder it is to tune (for me anyway) the shallower has more options and does not have to be struck as hard.

I love thin shells as well, they tune lower better and since they stay in the studio, don't get subject to being tossed around, so thick shells are of no bonus.

I notice more and more that in many styles of music the really low pitched drums get lost in the mix.

[Fieldstone]

I also owned an Ayotte kit with woodhoops and large sizes (22x18, 10x9,12x10, 14x12, 16x14). I sold it a few years ago and am now playing a kit with different proportions.

I'm playing modern rock with a 20x16 kick. The 18" depth kicks with a thin shell seem to "honk" a bit. The 20x16 has more "boom" and less "honk", and a punch w/ nice full bottom. 20 may not be up your alley though....

For the toms, the "square sizes"...ie, 16x16, 14x14..etc tend so sound more choked and are more difficult to tune....though they were all the rage in the 80's and early 90's. I've grown to prefer sizes that DW seemed to make popular, the 12x9, 13x10 stuff, which are closer to "traditional" sized toms of 12x8,13x9...

Someone mentioned above that for the floor toms, keep the depth an inch or two shorter than the diameter. I agree 100%, they sing more.


All the best,
JR

[666666]

Originally Posted by Suspects

...If the inside of the drum is not stuffed with something, the interior creates it's own "room tone"...

Very interesting point. I haven't noticed this yet with 18" deep kicks, but it makes a lot of sense that "inner reflections" could be an issue. Good info.

Originally Posted by T_MIX

The closer a drum get to being "square" in the diameter verses depth, the harder it is to tune (for me anyway)...

I agree, good point. Not sure why this is, but ANY drum that is "square" (whether it be a 16"X16" tom, or whatever) is always very hard to tune. I wonder if there are any articles that discuss drum shell physics. Certain sizes and certain diameter to depth ratios just seem to work better than others. Interesting.

I've compared kicks of 14", 16" and 18" depths and have found, at least when tuned per my liking, all with the same exact heads and muffling, etc, the deeper the kick, the deeper and "louder" the low-end. A 14" deep kick can have great punch and perhaps a generally "balanced" amount of low-end, but an 18" deep kick just sounds like a cannon... maybe even a bit "overbearing" at times, but it sends chills up my spine, I'm addicted.

With this in mind, it would make sense that a deeper kick might be best for live use as it'll provide the most volume and low-end, and perhaps a shallower kick would be better for recording, due to some of the notes posted above.

Ironically, I've done the opposite over the years... I've used my shallower kicks for live use because they are smaller, lighter and thus easier to fit into a van and easier to carry... and then reserved my deeper kicks for recording in the name of capturing what is hopefully the richest, deepest low-end possible. (Note: I do not use "subkick" mics or extra "kick resonators", etc... I prefer to get all the "low-end" straight out of the drum into standard mics).

So far, I have not noted any big problems recording 18" deep kicks, might be the way I tune and play them, but... I will surely focus more on this issue and try out some 16" or maybe even 14" deep kicks in the studio to see if some level of overall improvement is noted.

Indeed a thin shell is "best" for achieving great rich low-end. Many are already aware of this, but thin shells simply resonate at a lower pitch... and that's the trick. Take a BARE "thin" drum shell and a BARE "thick" shell of the same size, hang them from a wire and tap them with your hand... the thick shell will resonate at a noticeably higher pitch than the thinner one. Yes, I've done this myself just to satisfy my curiosity. But, keep in mind, a thicker shell seems to provide more upper-end "attack" than a very thin one, so... I guess the trick is to find the best balance. When I had my latest custom drums built, I chose a "medium" thickness shell... can't remember the thickness spec at the moment, but... it was one step up from the very thinnest available... and I'm ridiculously happy with them, wouldn't have it any other way, at least for what I do.

[666666]

Originally Posted by Fieldstone

someone mentioned above that for the floor toms, keep the depth an inch or two shorter than the diameter. I agree 100%, they sing more.

Indeed... though I'm using a 16" tom now that is "only" 14 inches deep, and it STILL tends to have a bit of that "choked" thing going on, not nearly as bad as say a 16"X16", but... it ain't "perfect". I'm wishing I had tried a 16" X 13" deep instead... well, next time.

I wonder how "ultra shallow" toms work in the studio. I noticed in a catalog recently that I think Tama is selling kits with very "shallow" toms... can't remember the exact specs, but, instead of a 12" tom being 9" deep, they made it 7" deep or whatever... who knows, maybe this would work really well...? Wonder how a 16" tom of only 12" depth would be?

Actually, if you want to study "ratios"... a diameter to depth ratio of 0.75 would put a 10" tom at 7.5" deep, a 12" tom at 9" deep, a 14" tom a 10.5" deep and a 16" tom at 12" deep.... hmmm... wonder how this would work... wonder if it makes sense to attempt to have each and every tom be of the same exact diameter to depth ratio.

We know that a 13" X 9" size seems to be universally excellent... this is a ratio of 0.692, to be exact.

Ok, someone please make a full kit with four toms, all 0.692 diameter to depth ratio, and report back... I'll be waiting.

[T_MIX]

Originally Posted by 666666

Indeed... though I'm using a 16" tom now that is "only" 14 inches deep, and it STILL tends to have a bit of that "choked" thing going on, not nearly as bad as say a 16"X16"

Hey 6x6,
You just got me to thinking when you said choked...
I have a 16 x 15 Ayotte that really sounded choked. My Son had a Mapex that sounded Wonderful....rang deep! We experimented with the same heads / same tuning and mine still choked compared to his.
We kept hammering away with them side by side and we noticed how his vibrated freely and mine shuddered and moonwalked all over the place..effectively dampening it. His had the type of legs that had the big rubber "floating" ends (like shock absorbers) so we swapped legs...
Problem solved! my tom sounds wonderful now!

I say all that to say, try putting a bit of foam rubber under your floor toms legs so it floats, and then play it. If it helps, just get you a set of those floating legs.

[Dr. Mordo]

A big factor here is how you like to play and tune the drums. If you like wide open ringy drums, you may be disappointed with smaller drums. I use single ply heads and tune my drums pretty tight, and on my Sonor kit with fusion sizes (10,12,14) the 10 sounds very small. Sure I can put Pinstripes on it and tune it down for the Gadd sound, but I lose all the rebound off the drum and it's half as loud.

I have a friend who has a 70s Sonor Lucite kit in 13x9, 16x16, 24x16 and he has run every imaginable head combo on it. He has gotten very tight rock sounds and very wide open Bonham-esque sounds as well. In 15 years of drumming I haven't seen a kit that is quite so verastile in its tuning range. And before you say that it wouldn't be appropriate for jazz or fusion, I'd say that once again it has to do with your playing style. Tony Williams always played big drums and made it work. Jr Robinson is one of the most recorded drummers ever, and if memory serves he plays big drums.

You can close mic a Bonham sized kit and it'll sound great. It actually sound a lot like a standard sized kit tuned low with pinstripes. Listen to Screaming Trees 'Dust'. You'll hear Bonham sizes, close miced, played by a good drummer, and recorded by Andy Wallace. Now will a Bonham kit be appropriate for a jazz combo? Probly not. I'd say the 14" rack tom is just too much, but I guess if you muffled the BD it'd work.

Like I said, it really comes down to how you like the drums to be tuned when you play them. If you like 'em loose and sloppy with heavy heads, then big drums may be a bad idea as they tend to get very muddy when tuned super low. If you like them tighter with a bit of rebound, bigger drums will work fine.

[Fieldstone]

Originally Posted by 666666

I wonder how "ultra shallow" toms work in the studio. I noticed in a catalog recently that I think Tama is selling kits with very "shallow" toms... can't remember the exact specs, but, instead of a 12" tom being 9" deep, they made it 7" deep or whatever... who knows, maybe this would work really well...? Wonder how a 16" tom of only 12" depth would be?

I have a Taye Go Kit also which has 5.5inch depth toms (10 and 12 in diameter). They record pretty nicely for what they are....but they inherently sound smaller yet have a lot of attack. I'm using Evans G2 coateds on them currently but may switch up to a nice single ply coated head.

One key note is that they don't "feel" the same as my full sized Taye kit. The stick response is of course somewhat different. Something magical happens when the kit feels good and the sizes are right on and the heads are tuned properly....you lay the stick across the head and something jives. See if you can demo the Tama Hyperdrive stuff before/if you decide to go that route.

[Cameron Johnson]

Originally Posted by 666666

I wonder how "ultra shallow" toms work in the studio. I noticed in a catalog recently that I think Tama is selling kits with very "shallow" toms... can't remember the exact specs, but, instead of a 12" tom being 9" deep, they made it 7" deep or whatever... who knows, maybe this would work really well...? Wonder how a 16" tom of only 12" depth would be?

John Blackwell Jr (Prince's drummer) was big on using these... not sure if he still does, but I don't see why not. They sounded pretty good when I met him in 2005 in Montreal...

[biggator6]

Originally Posted by T_MIX

I say all that to say, try putting a bit of foam rubber under your floor toms legs so it floats, and then play it. If it helps, just get you a set of those floating legs.

Absolutely true! Pearl and Gibraltar also make some replacement feet that are hollow and act like little shock absorbers - I was shocked at the difference the first time I heard it.

[666666]

Originally Posted by biggator6

Absolutely true! Pearl and Gibraltar also make some replacement feet that are hollow and act like little shock absorbers - I was shocked at the difference the first time I heard it.

...and better yet, "hang" your floor tom from a suspension mount... I have some large 16" diameter toms "hanging" on Pearl "Optimount" hardware with Gibraltar stands, functions and sounds great. There's a lot to be said for getting the toms to really "float".

Though it's hard to see, I have Pearl Optimounts on all three toms in the photo of one of my Smith kits earlier in this thread. I use Pearl Optimounts for all toms now on all kits, they're excellent.

[biggator6]

A lot of drummers don't like the 'bounce' of hanging floor toms. That's really the only drawback there.

[Cameron Johnson]

Originally Posted by biggator6

A lot of drummers don't like the 'bounce' of hanging floor toms. That's really the only drawback there.

+1.

I never really liked having my toms mounted like that. I also find that the hardware necessary to minimize the bounce of the drum really adds weight, and therefore makes it inconvenient to move the drums around - not a big deal in the studio, but for the gigging drummer, it's a nightmare!

[Cameron Johnson]

Originally Posted by biggator6

Absolutely true! Pearl and Gibraltar also make some replacement feet that are hollow and act like little shock absorbers - I was shocked at the difference the first time I heard it.

True, these usually do open up the sound of the floors a little bit. Great buy. Night and day on a responsive shell!

[biggator6]

Originally Posted by Cameron Johnson

True, these usually do open up the sound of the floors a little bit. Great buy. Night and day on a responsive shell!

And for like $8 - it's a no-brainer.

[HeavyG]

Originally Posted by biggator6

A lot of drummers don't like the 'bounce' of hanging floor toms. That's really the only drawback there.

It's let getting used to drinking skim milk. At first, it tastes watery...after a week or so, 2% tastes like a milk shake. I switched to large suspended toms from traditional floor toms and at first I hated the "bounce". Now I don't notice it and I prefer them over floor toms...so it is more a function of what you are used to...rather than the actual performance of the drum.

[666666]

Originally Posted by HeavyG

It's let getting used to drinking skim milk. At first, it tastes watery...after a week or so, 2% tastes like a milk shake. I switched to large suspended toms from traditional floor toms and at first I hated the "bounce". Now I don't notice it and I prefer them over floor toms...so it is more a function of what you are used to...rather than the actual performance of the drum.

I agree.

With the Pearl hangers and Gibraltar hardware I'm using, the bounce is minimal anyway. The drums just sound and feel better hanging. It did take a bit of getting used to, but now I much prefer it to the point where if I sit behind a kit with legged floor toms, I'm not happy.

The only downside to hanging floor toms... in the past I was used to using the floor toms like "tables" sometimes, I'd rest sheet music or a towel or whatever on the floor toms... as well I'd sometimes actually just rest my arm on a floor tom during a break or whatever, etc. Can't do this with a hanging floor tom, need to be careful not to push down or rest anything heavy as it'll knock the stand out of adjustment.

But I'm totally sold on hanging floor toms, indeed once you get used to `em, there's no turning back. It does make sense that if your rack toms are hanging, then ALL toms should be hanging. Why hang some toms and not others? I like for all toms to be as uniform as possible.