Traditional grip drummers...

[manthe]

I put my sticks down about 18 years ago when I was schooled by a 14 yeard old! Best thing for me at the time because I learned that I had a knack for songwriting and went on to front a band for years (with the younger guy on drums).

I've played here and there over the years, but nothing regular. Lately I've been really embracing drums again and loving it. I find myself wanting to play a lot now over the last 4 or 5 months. I have a good kit in the studio and I think I want to start actually 'practicing'!

Here's the deal, I have ALWAYS wanted to play traditional grip. Buddy is my all-time hero! I suck at it now for anything beyond base beats and simple fills.

So, are there any tips/web sites/tutorials/exercises any one can turn me on to that will help me on my quest to be a good traditional grip (and maybe even 'high hands') player? A Google search brings up a ton of info, but I prefer direct discussion and/or recommendations from pros! Are there any disadvantages to this style for blues, rock, ect?

Thanks!

[orange]

I'd love to be able to play traditional grip - I just don't seem to have the knack. Regardless of the pros and cons I always think it looks uber-cool

PS - you know there is a special drum subforum ?

[manthe]

Originally Posted by orange

PS - you know there is a special drum subforum ?

I wasn't aware of that. Thanks!

Mods, please feel free to move this thread...

[heavi5ide]

I don't check out the drum forums but as a guitar player who's been playing on my drummer's kit when I get a chance, I've had good luck finding instructional clips on youtube. You can find lots of snippets of drum videos featuring famous drummers showing you how to hold the sticks etc. Lots of these videos feature awesome haircuts from the 80's and 90's as well, so that's a bonus!

Nick

[dubrichie]

well when i started playing the drums at age 10 i was taught traditional grip at first.

then after a few years i insisted on changing to non-trad, whatever they call it, "straight" grip.

i just couldn't get my left wrist action good enough and i changed out of sheer frustration.

then a couple of years ago i started mucking around with trad grip again and found that it changed my playing style. i've stuck with it since i now prefer the funkier style it seems to bring out of me. i'm still working on it as i haven't yet achieved the nuance that i'm striving for but hey, i'm having fun!

i don't know what advice i can give you except to keep on at it if it really appeals to you. play along to loads and loads of stones and beatles and the like. rock and roll drums played by guys who were trained as jazz cats. it'll come eventually. just keep it simple and focus on the grooves.

good luck.

[earldrum]

Originally Posted by manthe

So, are there any tips/web sites/tutorials/exercises any one can turn me on to that will help me on my quest to be a good traditional grip (and maybe even 'high hands') player? A Google search brings up a ton of info, but I prefer direct discussion and/or recommendations from pros! Are there any disadvantages to this style for blues, rock, ect?

Thanks!

Hi:

There is a DVD about using the "Moeller Method" called "Moeller Method Secrets." It goes for about $40 bucks. This DVD is all about using traditional grip. Guys like Dave Weckl, Steve Smith, and Neil Peart really studied the Moeller grip.

I personally play both matched and traditional. I don't seem to get the power I need out of traditional grip. I do like to play traditional grip, especially in a jazz combo setting.

[HeavyG]

What a great topic! I guess its something every drummer goes through in their playing career...lets go through some of the pros and cons.

Pros to Traditional Grip
1. Is well suited to playing music styles that require a lighter more sensitive touch. The natural angle of your left hand with a traditional grip lets your stick rest on the snare (where you can ghost note and texturize to your heart's content). The natural angle of your stick with matched grip is a bit more upright and requires training to texturize (again, it can be done very well...but it is a bit more work). The natural volume is also a bit softer due to the physical motion of the stroke.
2. Is well suited to playing smooth double stroke "press" rolls. Your left hand technique with traditional grip is more of a circular "press" than a vertical hit (for matched grip).
3. Can encourage you to play more "in the pocket" in a rock/pop context as it is a bit more work to get around the drumkit and requires you to hit harder.
4. Can be visually entertaining to your audience (as it is unusual and you can incorporate it into a "Buddy Rich" upside down cymbal extravaganza with appealing results).
5. Saves on sticks (especially if you play a lot of rimshots...like I do)
6. It is easier on your body playing with more minimal movement and physical exertion.

Cons
1. Playing at loud volumes. Even a big BONZO backbeat can be tough without really smacking the bejeezus out of your snare.
2. Busy "Rock" stuff. It is harder to get around the kit (a bigger one) and play at the volume and attack necessary.
3. It can force you to be "lazy" and not really attack your kit with reckless abandon in a rock context (if required)

Bruford, Copeland, Colaiuta, Matt Chamberlin, Charlie Watts, Buddy, and Keltner are some high profile players that utilized traditonal grip. None really stand out as backbeat monsters like some of the traditonal grip guys (Bonham, Rudd, Moon, Cozy Powel, Tommy Aldridge) but you can play matched with more subtlety like Ringo, Porcaro and Purdie. I started with traditonal grip and switched when I started playing drumkit (from the snare only)...and I have kept up my chops somewhat. I will post some exercises that can help you. Good luck...

Peace,
G

[seaneldon]

I can ONLY do traditional grip with one drum (4 years of drum corps and award winning marching bands = "learn how to play traditional grip, Sean"). My head completely blows up when I try to do it at a kit with multiple elements.

Mercenary's Jay Fitz plays traditional like a motherfather.

[reid]

Originally Posted by HeavyG

Copeland.... high profile players that utilized traditonal grip. None really stand out as backbeat monsters.....

Does not compute.

[LackOfIntelect]

Books : "It`s your move" (Dom Famularo) and "Stick Control" by George stone.

I`d recomend mastering the free stroke with matched grip (french, german, and american). After you got the free stroke down, I`d go for moeller stroke with matched and traditional grips.

If you like Buddy Rich, then you`ll have to practice a LOT of single stroke. And you`ll only be good with your single stroke after you get the free and moeller stroke mastered.

After you`re done with your hands (or while you`re mastering your hands) you should go for some independence books.

For a jazz oriented thing you can go: "syncopation for the modern drummer" by Ted Reed.

And for something more advanced: "The new breed 1 and 2" by Gary Chester.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by dubrichie

well when i started playing the drums at age 10 i was taught traditional grip at first.

then after a few years i insisted on changing to non-trad, whatever they call it, "straight" grip.

i just couldn't get my left wrist action good enough and i changed out of sheer frustration.

I started out life as a drummer, and I don't think I was aware that people used anything but traditional grip for a long time. I've never been able to get the hang of straight grip on a kit or a snare. I can do it when playing timpani, but you never rough a note or double stroke on timpani.

[vernier]

For traditional grip, best thing out there is the instructional vid "A Lesson with Louis Bellson by Murray Spivak".

Watch it a hundred times, you'll be swingin'.

[manthe]

This is turning out great! I have a lot to look at here. Thanks! Keep it coming.

I am worried about the power issue. Many time the stuff I play is *really* heavy snare stuff. I've wondered if I'll be able to build up the power necessary to do this. Does any one else have problems consistently smacking a snare?

[Brenton]

Like many, I started out traditional grip and had no problems with power or rolls or anything on the snare and toms but I could not get comfortable hitting cymbals. It just never felt right/good. After a couple of years I gave matched a try and never went back.

[vernier]

I am worried about the power issue. Many time the stuff I play is *really* heavy snare stuff. I've wondered if I'll be able to build up the power necessary to do this. Does any one else have problems consistently smacking a snare?

Learn both grips fluently ..its not hard.

[biggator6]

Apparently the new Jojo Mayer DVD 'secret weapons for the modern drummer' is about the most comprehensive instructional video on hand technique that anyone has ever done. It's mostly focused on variations on Moeller (Jojo has his own 'valving' technique which is based on Moeller, but a bit different) - but explains everything in terms of traditional and matched grip.

It's on my short list to buy.. I try to play both ways, but I'm only comfortable playing traditional on the snare - as soon as I go around the kit, it just feels awkward.

[rossi]

Unless you are playing a single drum traditional grip is a wast of time. On a drumkit matched grip makes a lot more sense especially from geometrical point of view . traditional is akeen of using the push-pull steering technick when driving a car , ok 50 years ago on a morris minor and the likes but not a modern car

Ross

[manthe]

Well, I did a full hour this evening (before a fuse blew in my studio ) and I forced myself to stay traditional grip the whole time. It was tough and awkward. I'm glad no one was recording it! Feels like I'll have blister on the edge of my ring finger soon!

I had a hard time getting any dynamics out of the snare and i was completely worthless on toms and cymbals. I'll give it some time and start to do drills and rudimentary stuff...I'll also pick up some of these vids and books to see what sticks. Even if it all just turns out to be academic, it still benefits me *something*

[redrue]

With traditional grip (and a metronome):

Do this in triplet time:
R L L
R L L
R L L
R L L

Do this counting sixteenths:
R L L L
R L L L
R L L L
R L L L

Do each exercise as smoothly as possible, start slowly and
SLOWLY build speed. It's better to go too slow than too fast.
Try to make your hits as even possible. Accent the right hand
then the left. Do each exercise at least 5 minutes a day. Don't
miss any days. Week by week you'll notice much improvement.

[HeavyG]

Originally Posted by reid

Does not compute.

So you think Stewart Copeland plays a thunderous backbeat like Powell, Bonham, Rudd, etc? I would say he is more of a world beat drummer (or a pretend punk drummer in the early days) that plays with a lot of syncopation...just my opinion. He did play really hard for a traditional grip player..but that shows you how hard it is to ROCK with traditonal grip. He sounds puny compared to the big boys. I love Stewart...but I was trying to put this into a dynamic/ rock context and how it is hard to play those heavy backbeat grooves with traditional grip. This wasnt a rip on Copeland or any of the cats I mentioned...they are all hall of famers.

[HeavyG]

To me the hardest part of traditional grip is with single stroke rolls...I could play doubles and press rolls really easily. I would suggest master single stroke exercises first...doubles and press rolls should come easily. This is what made Buddy Rich so amazing...his singles were faster than most players press rolls...and they were as clean as a typewiter.

[joeq]

traditional grip was invented so that drummers who were marching with drums slung at their side would not have to lift their left elbow ridiculously way up high and way out to the side to address the drum. (try it!) The only way to play matched grip while you are marching is to have the drum slung in front of you where it will bang you in the nuts.

once you are sitting down at a kit and can angle and place the drums anywhere you want, holding the stick sideways in your left hand is not 'necessary'.

In classical orchestral percussion, matched grip is the "tradition"

I started out playing traditional grip, and fractured my thumb playing too hard one night. You CAN play hard with traditional grip but proper technique is much more critical. If you don't rebound correctly your thumb absorbs all the shock. And the rebound is a twisting motion quite different from the right hand.


After my thumb swelled up, I switched to matched grip, but it took a few years with a good teacher to finally rid myself of the last vestiges of the "rotary" motion on my left hand. Oddly enough my teacher played trad grip himself.


That is the crux of the matter: in traditional grip is you are using different muscles and different motions in each hand to make "the same" basic stroke. This can perhaps be an advantage in jazz where the left hand is working to be musically independent and is playing different kinds of things than the right, but generally you have to admit, it is kind of weird.

As a teacher, I always start new students out matched unless they said they were coming in specifically for marching band. OTOH, I would never tell anyone who had been playing traditional for a number of years to switch.

Or vice versa. There is very little that can not be accomplished with either method, so if you are good in one, why switch? Why set yourself back for very little long-term gain?

There are many legitimate reasons for playing traditional grip, but "it looks cool" is not one of them.

[orange]

Originally Posted by joeq

There are many legitimate reasons for playing traditional grip, but "it looks cool" is not one of them.

I beg to differ

[joeq]

Originally Posted by orange

I beg to differ

[kafka]

This is a good video. Lots of nice closeups of of Mitch Mitchell's playing. For the most part, He's using traditional grip, but he does slip into matched grip sometimes.

Notice how he uses matched grip, though. He sometimes suspends the left stick from his index and middle fingers, rather than keeping all four fingers together as on the right hand. Other times, it's more of a power grip. Fabulous and flexible technique by one of my favorite rock drummers.



And I love how Jimi throws in that little "I Feel Fine" riff in the start of "Hey Joe".

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by manthe

I put my sticks down about 18 years ago when I was schooled by a 14 yeard old! Best thing for me at the time because I learned that I had a knack for songwriting and went on to front a band for years (with the younger guy on drums).

I've played here and there over the years, but nothing regular. Lately I've been really embracing drums again and loving it. I find myself wanting to play a lot now over the last 4 or 5 months. I have a good kit in the studio and I think I want to start actually 'practicing'!

Here's the deal, I have ALWAYS wanted to play traditional grip. Buddy is my all-time hero! I suck at it now for anything beyond base beats and simple fills.

So, are there any tips/web sites/tutorials/exercises any one can turn me on to that will help me on my quest to be a good traditional grip (and maybe even 'high hands') player? A Google search brings up a ton of info, but I prefer direct discussion and/or recommendations from pros! Are there any disadvantages to this style for blues, rock, ect?

Thanks!

George Stone's "Stick Control" will help develop the hands

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by kafka

This is a good video. Lots of nice closeups of of Mitch Mitchell's playing. For the most part, He's using traditional grip, but he does slip into matched grip sometimes.

Notice how he uses matched grip, though. He sometimes suspends the left stick from his index and middle fingers, rather than keeping all four fingers together as on the right hand. Other times, it's more of a power grip. Fabulous and flexible technique by one of my favorite rock drummers.



And I love how Jimi throws in that little "I Feel Fine" riff in the start of "Hey Joe".

I had no idea Geddy Lee play bass for Hendrix.....

[elroy jetson]

Originally Posted by biggator6

Apparently the new Jojo Mayer DVD 'secret weapons for the modern drummer' is about the most comprehensive instructional video on hand technique that anyone has ever done.

This is the only video that anyone would ever need for hand technique. It is without a doubt the best instructional video for drums out there. He gives incredibly detailed explanations along with slow motion samples, as well as great performances. If you were to get one video to help you be a better drummer, this is it.

[biggator6]

Agreed - I got the Mayer DVD.. and it's amazing.

He also echoes the above statement that there is no compelling reason to play traditional, and admits he only plays that way because it's how he's used to playing. He demonstrates the reason for playing traditional (with the marching drum) early in the video.

That DVD really is a must buy (or rent - Netflix has it).. he goes into amazing detail about traditional, matched, french, german, finger technique, moeller.. all of it - and I'm only through the first of 2 discs!
"-)

[Goliath|Audio]

I got hooked on traditional grip back when I marched DCI. I have no problem getting enough power out of my left hand, but I don't play b*lls out like some people do. I play using dynamics and touch. I couldn't imagine playing blast beats without matched grip though. I agree, learn both fluently.