Drum Mixing Techniques From the Pros

[ColourSurround]

The pros in this case being you guys. I know that there is no one special formula for doing a great drum mix, nor should there be, it all has to be subjective to the current situation, but are there any go-to techniques that you use that really help in getting a great rich sounding or really stand-out mix out of the kit? I'm still new to all this so I love hearing what others are doing to get the sounds they need.

I've been apprenticing in a few studios in the Ottawa area and I must say, the quality of engineers there is quite sub-par, especially when doing drum mixes. I relocated to Vancouver so hopefully there will be a better crop to learn from out here. Anyway if anyone has something they'd like to share, post it up! I'd dig a good, educational read.

[James Meeker]

Random tips... not always useful but nice to know.

1.) Snares love plate 'verb

2.) Multiple 'verbs on snare often works

3.) Cutting top end off room mics is often good

4.) "Modern" kick drums have a lot less low end than you may think, and a lot more 4-6K... you may end up boosting +12 db in that range... don't fret, it happens.

5.) Nail you kick/snare compression attack/release curves right away. Once you nail that (and you'll hear it when you do) you've got the drum sounds nailed.

6.) Don't pan the toms too far... 75-45% wide does the trick.

7.) Don't go insane with the top end of the OH's.... too much 10K+ ends up with a very amateur sound.

8.) Snare EQ: HP around 70hz, boost around 120-240, cut around 500-700, boost at 1.2K, and look for something between 3 and 10 K for more boost depending. Depends on what you got and want. Piccolo snares tend to like 6-7k boosts.

9.) Try parallel compression on only the rooms--run one fairly mild, and the other set to annihilate. Balance them out until it sounds cool.

10.) Knock out some 200 and 800 hz in room mics... leave the rest of it alone except for maybe some mild 8 Khz lowpassin'. If the kick has to be tight, HP the signal as well.

11.) Ruthlessly cut the lower mids on kick.... 6-15 db cuts should do around the 300-500 area. Set bandwidth to taste... the tighter the kick you want the more around 150-250 you should be rollin' off on.

12.) Pick either your OH's or rooms as being dominant. Don't put 'em in at the same levels--have one louder than the other. The "modern" way is to choose the rooms a bit more--to balance out the ultra compressed and loud direct mics. Most OH's these days are cymbal info and a little clarity only and are often low in the mix (like -12 db on the meters it seems).

13.) Limit *AND* compress kicks and snares. Love compression with a vengeance for that Lord Alge sound.

14.) Put a stereo widener on your OH's... makes the drumkit image bigger, can make the snare sound a bit fatter too.

15.) Put 20 ms delay on your room mics to get that Albini sound.

16.) Apply vigorous amounts of tape saturation as the first plugin in your chain.... you'll need less compression later on. Gets a good vintage/indie type sound if you lay it on there.

17.) 20-80 ms of predelay on snare 'verbs can be cool.

18.) Non-lin verb sounds on drums is probably going to come back in style--I've already gotten requests for "big 80's drum sounds, tons of reverb" from young bands.

19.) Don't compress your OH mics.

20.) See if you can get a good sound using only your OH's and (some) room mics. Add minor amounts of close kick/snare (maybe not snare) for a vintage type sounds. It can be interesting how great you can get this to sound (except forget it when doing "modern" rock or metal--you need all the close mics you can get).

21.) When in doubt use triggers/samples. However, if it's a "learning" session or your trying to improve your chops don't use those things until you learn how to mix without it. Use the bare minimum when you do use 'em...

[peeder]

I have placed James' excellent and thorough set of tips into the new Gearslutz wiki. James if you mind my doing so that's fine I will delete the article. I believe, being a wiki, you can go ahead and alter the article if you want.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tips-...ml#post1745912

[DeanMartin]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Random tips... not always useful but nice to know.

1.) Snares love plate 'verb

2.) Multiple 'verbs on snare often works

3.) Cutting top end off room mics is often good

4.) "Modern" kick drums have a lot less low end than you may think, and a lot more 4-6K... you may end up boosting +12 db in that range... don't fret, it happens.

5.) Nail you kick/snare compression attack/release curves right away. Once you nail that (and you'll hear it when you do) you've got the drum sounds nailed.

6.) Don't pan the toms too far... 75-45% wide does the trick.

7.) Don't go insane with the top end of the OH's.... too much 10K+ ends up with a very amateur sound.

8.) Snare EQ: HP around 70hz, boost around 120-240, cut around 500-700, boost at 1.2K, and look for something between 3 and 10 K for more boost depending. Depends on what you got and want. Piccolo snares tend to like 6-7k boosts.

9.) Try parallel compression on only the rooms--run one fairly mild, and the other set to annihilate. Balance them out until it sounds cool.

10.) Knock out some 200 and 800 hz in room mics... leave the rest of it alone except for maybe some mild 8 Khz lowpassin'. If the kick has to be tight, HP the signal as well.

11.) Ruthlessly cut the lower mids on snare.... 6-15 db cuts should do around the 300-500 area. Set bandwidth to taste... the tighter the kick you want the more around 150-250 you should be rollin' off on.

12.) Pick either your OH's or rooms as being dominant. Don't put 'em in at the same levels--have one louder than the other. The "modern" way is to choose the rooms a bit more--to balance out the ultra compressed and loud direct mics. Most OH's these days are cymbal info and a little clarity only and are often low in the mix (like -12 db on the meters it seems).

13.) Limit *AND* compress kicks and snares. Love compression with a vengeance for that Lord Alge sound.

14.) Put a stereo widener on your OH's... makes the drumkit image bigger, can make the snare sound a bit fatter too.

15.) Put 20 ms delay on your room mics to get that Albini sound.

16.) Apply vigorous amounts of tape saturation as the first plugin in your chain.... you'll need less compression later on. Gets a good vintage/indie type sound if you lay it on there.

17.) 20-80 ms of predelay on snare 'verbs can be cool.

18.) Non-lin verb sounds on drums is probably going to come back in style--I've already gotten requests for "big 80's drum sounds, tons of reverb" from young bands.

19.) Don't compress your OH mics.

20.) See if you can get a good sound using only your OH's and (some) room mics. Add minor amounts of close kick/snare (maybe not snare) for a vintage type sounds. It can be interesting how great you can get this to sound (except forget it when doing "modern" rock or metal--you need all the close mics you can get).

21.) When in doubt use triggers/samples. However, if it's a "learning" session or your trying to improve your chops don't use those things until you learn how to mix without it. Use the bare minimum when you do use 'em...

That is Killer perfect! Put it in MONO and check for phase issues or all of the above is useless.

[biggator6]

Great tips!

I've been spending time using LESS mics and loving the results (see thread in 'low end theory' on Glyn Johns technique)..

So, another tip to add in there may be - 'try muting some mics.. you may not need everything you put up on the kit!'
"-)

[Protools Guy]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

13.) Limit *AND* compress kicks and snares. Love compression with a vengeance for that Lord Alge sound.

James - For kicks & snares, do you generally insert the limiter before or after the compressor?

[Sigma]

as some general guidlines the above is good

i set the drums as the appear to the viewer so high rack isjust slightly right of the snare and the floor tom is like 50-75% to the left

i disagree about never compressing OVDS..most of my rock clients love the "cymbals that sustain forever" that i get from using compressors

[Bounce]

I often parallel compress everything BUT the overheads and hi hat. I may use a different compressor on overheads (if I use one there for the reason in the post above) and different compressor on room mics. One cool trick is to use a separate room/plate reverb for just the room mic(s) if you are in a smaller tracking room. Makes the room mic sound bigger and you can often leave the close mics dry(er) and use the room for space :-)

Massey's Tape Head is real cool as the first insert on snare drum.

When mixing, determine what is going to carry the bottom, bass guitar/bass synth or kick drum. Then leave eq space appropriately.

[tommyd123]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

4.) "Modern" kick drums have a lot less low end than you may think, and a lot more 4-6K... you may end up boosting +12 db in that range... don't fret, it happens.

What range and what amount do you boost in the low end if and when you do?

[tdr]

Thanks a lot for all the suggestions James, lots of great info for a newbie like me. Regarding 14), are there any plug ins you can suggest for that task?

Originally Posted by James Meeker

14.) Put a stereo widener on your OH's... makes the drumkit image bigger, can make the snare sound a bit fatter too.

[vernier]

So thats how they got Bonham's kit to sound so good.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by vernier

So thats how they got Bonham's kit to sound so good.

a couple of tings smart alec.....

1. yes - indeed so. A couple of earlier versions of hose techniques are in "bonhams drums"

2. its in the player as much as the room. Same with guitars etc

3. Bonhams drums would sound pretty weak on a modern record - of course you might not like modern records so fair enuf!

good tips though.

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by Protools Guy

James - For kicks & snares, do you generally insert the limiter before or after the compressor?

A typical effect chain for me on kick will be:

1.) Gate - set to clean things up a bit, gate fully closed is like -12 db or so
2.) Limiter - set to even out the hits a bit
3.) Compressor - set to "shape" the hits, and add solidity
4.) EQ - set to get "the sound"

I find that putting the compressor after the limiter hides the use of the limiter and gives you greater ability to shape the sounds with attack/release on the compressor to get the feel you need.

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by tommyd123

What range and what amount do you boost in the low end if and when you do?

This of course varies from track to track and depends on a lot of other things, but in general the EQ for my "modern" kick drum looks something like:

-HP filter around 40-60 hz at 18 db/octave

-Boost somewhere around 60-120 hz by 3 db at a fairly tight bandwidth

-Cut around 300-500 hz by 8-12 db, fairly narrow bandwidth to get out flub and boxiness

-Cut around 800-1200 hz by 3-5 db... more for the snare to cut than anything (let's you really get the kick up there in volume)

-Boost around 4-6 khz by 8-15 db for that bright slap (I hope your kick mic was isolated from the rest of the kit for this!)

-LP filter around 10 khz because you don't need much up there

Sony Oxford EQ works great for this. I usually do most of my kick tweaking using plugins because the SSL's EQ can't get precise enough for me and the Tube Tech PE1C doesn't sound right for (too much character) for radical EQ'ing.

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by DeanMartin

That is Killer perfect! Put it in MONO and check for phase issues or all of the above is useless.

Very true!

It's amazing that Dan Spitz posts here because there are two reasons why I made music my career:

1.) Metallica
2.) Anthrax

This is totally cool!

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

A typical effect chain for me on kick will be:

1.) Gate - set to clean things up a bit, gate fully closed is like -12 db or so
2.) Limiter - set to even out the hits a bit
3.) Compressor - set to "shape" the hits, and add solidity
4.) EQ - set to get "the sound"

I find that putting the compressor after the limiter hides the use of the limiter and gives you greater ability to shape the sounds with attack/release on the compressor to get the feel you need.

at -12 dB reduction a "gate" is still a "downard expander" just to get your sematics straight..i consider gate a "gate" when the sound is 90% and above reduced at threshold

nice though.. to me drums sound more harmonious with a downward expansion of toms, kick and snare at about a 6-12 dB clip so there is a more natural pump to the bleed

bringing the "tit" out with a late compressor is great for kick, snare and toms because it's like an eq that only affects an area

ie by pushing down the sustain and decay the hit or crack is accentuated and that is usually the 1.8-5k click ya want..by using a compressor to bring that out you effectively are "eq'ing" just the attack not the tonality of the sustain...keeping the warmth of that while putting crack just on the front end

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by vernier

So thats how they got Bonham's kit to sound so good.

Well that would be tip 21: have John Bonham play the drums

:)

I've done minimal miking on occasion. I like the sound and simplicity of it. However, you need a drummer that can "self mix" their dynamics to pull it off. It does have its own sound, one that isn't very in vogue at the moment. It is a great sound, but great engineering is about bringing the proper perspective to a project and you're not going to get a very 'in yo face modern' sound with that method.

But yeah, you can do some damage with some overheads, some rooms, and a kick mic (maybe a snare) with the right placement, right player, right room in the right production.

[deve]

Originally Posted by narcoman

a couple of tings smart alec.....


3. Bonhams drums would sound pretty weak on a modern record - of course you might not like modern records so fair enuf!

good tips though.

The only adjective that cannot be used for John Bonham's drums is weak, pretty weak.. oh no..

great tips btw, thanks a lot

[Bang]

I think James has a lot of great points. I'll also add to Dan's post, that when mixing, the FIRST thing you should do is check phase between the overheads and the close mics. Do this by soloing the overheads, then one by one the close mics with the overheads. Hit the phase button. Whichever position yields the proper sound (usually heard by the "proper" sound having more low end and the "improper" sound having NO low end), is right. A lot of times when guys say "I can't get my drums punchy", I find its because the kick or snare is out of phase with the OH's and you'll NEVER be able to dial in that low end back.

Also, I NEVER eq the room mics without them in the mix. Their sound plays a huge part in the overall sounds of the drums.

With kicks, I like high ratio compression, but not much of it, we're talking 2-3 db here. Snares I like low ratio, same gain reduction, slow attack, medium release to HOLD on to that transient and fatten it up.

And as always, DON'T BE A PUSSY WITH EQ. Sometimes when you want punch, before you try to mess with a compressor, see what 3db at 2k does along with a nice little 4db bell at 125Hz.

[James Meeker]

On the whole phase issue I gotta say that in a perfect world everything would be in phase. If you are responsible for recording and mixing, checking the phase at the start of mixing is too late. I totally check phase before recording ANYTHING.

However, if you're mixing a track someone else recorded... yeah check the phase. It's astounding how many people mess up stuff like having two mics on the kick and one partially out of phase. It's a nightmare out there.

While we're on the EQ'ing subject, I recommend compressing and EQ'ing with all the tracks in ALL THE TIME. Soloing a drum and tweaking it is usually a blind alley--although I recommend pulling it up solo to see what lives where and how the signal reacts--then throw it in the mix and do your thing. You'd be surprised what sounds good in a track compared to solo'd.

[forsooth]

Hey, thanks James.......... just tried out some of your tips here! I'm liking what I'm hearing!

forsooth

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by forsooth

Hey, thanks James.......... just tried out some of your tips here! I'm liking what I'm hearing!

forsooth

Very cool! You made my day, which is good because in about an hour I have to go in the studio to mix a track. It always helps to be in a good mood about yourself when mixing!

[johnnybregar]

I'm no pro, but looking at the amount of processing (gates, limiters, eq, etc) I would say that many of these more intensive techniques are more suitable for a modern, crunchy, rock sound. If you're looking for a more organic, live sound I really like to leave the kit alone as much as possible. I will most often roll off the low end on the overheads, not mic toms/hi hat, and add some LA2A to the snare and 1176 on the kick and then maybe run it through a buss compressor. I only really eq if there's something weird going on. I never gate. I never limit.

Just my 2 cents for a slightly more organic sound....

[not_so_new]

While I don't agree with everything that James said in his list I think most of the points are pretty darn good.



The one thing that I would say is missing from everyone's list here is this....

#1 The "mix" starts with the recording and before you break out one mic, patch in one EQ or set up one compressor STOP and listen in your head to what the music is calling for.

I am not talking about style of playing, that comes from the player, I am talking about style of music.

I LOVE the sound of the guitars on Tool records, I LOVE the sound of the guitars on a Hound Dog Taylor recordings, I don't think it would work well if Hound Dog played with Tool's guitar sound. (okay, I have to admit that was just a way to include a really cool Hound Dog video into this post...)



Anyway, this is the same with drums. I really dig the sound of Mitch Mitchell's drums on Manic Depression but I don't think this drum sound would work for a Korn recording.

It's all about context. What do the drums do in the song? Is the band an in your face heavy deal? Are they a commercial pop group? Do they want / deserve a more retro vibe? What type of production techniques help display the song and the band in the best, most entertaining light to draw the listener in?

These are the questions I ask myself before I do anything because the answers to these questions are going to determine the approach I take from the first mic placed through to the end of the mix. And not to rant too much but this is why experience counts in this game. The more you have been around the more tricks you have in your back pocket. The more you can draw on these tricks the closer you can get to to your "ideal minds image" of the final product.

Good luck man... cool thread I am glad people are posting positive replies.

[svart]

I was one of the "never track with compression" folks for years until I actually played around with it.. I found that tracking OHs with LDCs->1272s->1176s found the sound I had always searched for but could never get.

Don't rule anything out, just give it a try, most of the time you will be disappointed but sometimes you will be shocked in a good way..

[dbbubba]

Can I add one thing?
The right drumer, but also a guy who has a kit set up for recording.
Drum tuning and DRUM CHOICE is probably more important than the mics!

Regarding JAMES MEEKER's tips..

That IS the basic formula for good sounding drums.
I agree with SIGMA that saying "NEVER EQ OHs" is a bit much, but over-all that is the stuff I have done for twenty years.
I use a lot of this stuff live, too.
It doesn't just apply to studio work.

I learned most of these same tips by doing session after session day after day.
It was a trial and error process, but at about the same time I had three things happen that "cemented" my belief in these tips:
#1) I went on several extensive U.S tours with a band on a major. I saw what a lot of engineers did live. Some of them are big name guys because we opened for some HUGE acts.
#2) while on tour we visited a lot of other artist's/band's sessions
#3) I was doing the ZROCK broadcasts and with major label acts and was able to see what a lot of guys did.

ALMOST AS RULE, THE GUYS THAT WERE GOOD USED THESE SAME EQ AND COMPRESSION IDEAS.
There were a few live guys that were really good and there were a lot of guys that were still searching at each sound check.

[Sigma]

the kit and tuning is essential..we all know "fix it in the mix" was a joke and "getting it in the room" is our job

[Empire Prod]

I think it is also important to note that a well recorded kit can require zero processing. The worse the tracking, the more crud you have to do to it later. Seriously... even in very dense modern rock mixes a well tracked kit can very easily require nothing but proper balance during a mix. I constantly get producers asking me how I get such great drum sounds (thinking there must be some elaborate secret), and I tell them "Get the sound during tracking".

You will have much better results and any processing you do will be more of an effect than an effort to shape or create a tone.

You don't need all this crap!