Cast Brass vs. Hammered Brass Snares

[Blindside]

What are the sonic differences between the two?

I want a drum I can tune high and get a nice, crisp responsive sound, and that I can tune low for a super fat, dry sound.

Anyone have experience with this?

[spjessop]

I always hear high praise for the Tama Bell Brass and would imagine that's the one to look for.

Also check out other materials. I've played a Noonan Cast Phosphor Bronze and it sounds to my ears just perfect. By far the superior of spun or rolled metal shells in terms of crispness, tone, projection etc. Heavy and pricy though.

For a warm fat sound you can't go wrong with a Black Beauty, although I have a soft spot for the Mapex Black Panther Hammered Brass snares as the build quality is stunning for the price.

[Blindside]

Originally Posted by spjessop

I always hear high praise for the Tama Bell Brass and would imagine that's the one to look for.

Also check out other materials. I've played a Noonan Cast Phosphor Bronze and it sounds to my ears just perfect. By far the superior of spun or rolled metal shells in terms of crispness, tone, projection etc. Heavy and pricy though.

For a warm fat sound you can't go wrong with a Black Beauty, although I have a soft spot for the Mapex Black Panther Hammered Brass snares as the build quality is stunning for the price.

Cool. I just saw a Gretsch 8x14 Hammred Brass Snare on ebay. It looks nice.

I played a 8x14 Yamaha Cact Brass Snare at GC a few months ago that sounded awesome. Ibelieve both of these are 1.3 mil thick brass.

I was just wondering if the Hammered would have that much of a different tone. (I have a thing for Gretsch snares)

I saw the Black Panthers too. They look nice (except for the awful gold HW)

[RoundBadge]

Big fan of cast shells.
I've got 2 Tama b-Brass' great tuning rangethumbsup=Expensive
Used on Nirvana's Nevermind.the one they used for the record doesn''t get rented out anymore for fear of being stolen!
i have quite a few great B-beauties as well.the new ludwig reissues are pretty damn good.
Hammered drums have interesting overtones,but prefer the non hammered ones for recording.
Dunnett Made of few "one off" cast iron snares.My fav metal snare of all time.
Also, Greg Keplinger makes awesome iron and Steel drums too..they're all over Soundgardens's "Superunkown"thumbsup

[Blindside]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Big fan of cast shells.
I've got 2 Tama b-Brass' great tuning rangethumbsup=Expensive
Used on Nirvana's Nevermind.the one they used for the record doesn''t get rented out anymore for fear of being stolen!
i have quite a few great B-beauties as well.the new ludwig reissues are pretty damn good.
Hammered drums have interesting overtones,but prefer the non hammered ones for recording.
Dunnett Made of few "one off" cast iron snares.My fav metal snare of all time.
Also, Greg Keplinger makes awesome iron and Steel drums too..they're all over Soundgardens's "Superunkown"thumbsup

Can you elaborate as to why you prefer the cast over the hammered for recording. Also the overtones.

A big reason I want a brass snare is for recording purposes.

[RoundBadge]

for example a new black beauty is a thin piece of pressed metal pressed into a shape.its easy to create a bead on drums like these.
a cast or solid steel is a different deal. the metal is bent around a shape and welded together.its not to easy to bend and shape a 3 to 6 millimeter piece of metal.
My favorie thinckness is 3 mil.
the Stock Dunnett metal drums come in around 1 mil..too thin for my taste..plenty of crack,sometimes too much ring.. which can work great for some live applications, but sometimes lack enough body.
I like crack and controlled ring and lots of body for recording drums[Wood good for that too,just less volume]
Thats why I love the thicker Bell Brass and cast drums..you can get plenty of crack with lots of body/thud and projection.
a very full pure tone,no f*ckin around,especially for rock.
hammering drums changes the metal creating more complex overtones.kinda like hammered cymbals.I'm Generally not a fan of hammered drums..
Purty to look at,but they just seem have a more pingy and ringy vibe,cloudy ..unfocused overtones that I don't like to deal with when recording.
there really aren't any hard fast rules..this is just my personal taste and experience

Just record em right and you won't have to start using all those samples to fix em like everyone else does
.

.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by Blindside

Can you elaborate as to why you prefer the cast over the hammered for recording. Also the overtones.

A big reason I want a brass snare is for recording purposes.

For the money ,the new luddie B-beauties are really good for recording.
But First change the heads to remos and put some puresound wires on it.
the stock heads and wires make the drum sound boxy
For even less money ,the Black dawg/Pork pie brass drums are ok.just a bit thinner and the lips are smaller,which makes em a little ringier/cheaper sounding for recording.,usable though with the right tweaks and dampening[Tape/Gel,etc]
The Ludwig, when it's set up right, has a more solid feel/tone IMO.

[Blindside]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

For the money ,the new luddie B-beauties are really good for recording.
But First change the heads to remos and put some puresound wires on it.
the stock heads and wires make the drum sound boxy
For even less money ,the Black dawg/Pork pie brass drums are ok.just a bit thinner and the lips are smaller,which makes em a little ringier/cheaper sounding for recording.,usable though with the right tweaks and dampening[Tape/Gel,etc]
The Ludwig, when it's set up right, has a more solid feel/tone IMO.

Thanks again. The new Black Beauties, I understand, come in only 6.5x14 or shallower. I was really hoping to get an 8x14, or at very least a 7x14. Thoughts?

You mentioned thinner and smaller lips being ringier. Is this always true? I already have an 8x14 '70s Gretsch Maple snare that I love and that can get ringy. I really want the brass snare to get that thick, dry, fat sound when tuned low, but be responsive when tuned up. Is there a preferred thickness or other spec for this?

[biggator6]

I just got an Ocheltree carbon-metal snare... heavy as hell and sounds amazing - can't wait to record it.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

hammering drums changes the metal creating more complex overtones..

I've worked with producers who want to hear ringy overtones, especially when you are dealing with a wall of guitars. The Ludwig Hand hammered Bronze is a great snare in those circumstances. Definitely worth owning one.
Other than that, the king of metal snares is the Black beauty IMO.
Next on the list? The 6.5" Supra.
It just so happens Ludwig metal shells have some magic in them IMO.
The Tama Bell Brass has a big rep.
It's expensive though, and not as versatile as the BB/Supra IMO.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by Blindside

Thanks again. The new Black Beauties, I understand, come in only 6.5x14 or shallower. I was really hoping to get an 8x14, or at very least a 7x14. Thoughts?

Check this.these guys make some seriously great metal drums :

Potyondi Custom Drums

and look at these:

McKenzie Drums

Originally Posted by Blindside

You mentioned thinner and smaller lips being ringier. Is this always true? I already have an 8x14 '70s Gretsch Maple snare that I love and that can get ringy. I really want the brass snare to get that thick, dry, fat sound when tuned low, but be responsive when tuned up. Is there a preferred thickness or other spec for this?

It's not always true ,it just depends on the drum/hardware,rims,etc.
With the cheaper brass snares,they usually use cheaper hardware,rims,etc..
so it has an effect on the sound too.
older 70's black beauties sound a little different to the current ones too.
the lugs on the newer ones are a bit thinner and the shell formulas are slightly different too,despite what Ludwig says.

Also I have some newer Craviotto wood snares that I thought were good but to ringy..
I eventually realized the cravvies like rounder/less sharp edges.
So I re-edged them with 30% roundover edges instead of the sharp 45%'s they come with.and now they sound amazingthumbsup

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by chrisso

I've worked with producers who want to hear ringy overtones, especially when you are dealing with a wall of guitars. The Ludwig Hand hammered Bronze is a great snare in those circumstances. Definitely worth owning one.
Other than that, the king of metal snares is the Black beauty IMO.
Next on the list? The 6.5" Supra.
It just so happens Ludwig metal shells have some magic in them IMO.
The Tama Bell Brass has a big rep.
It's expensive though, and not as versatile as the BB/Supra IMO.

Yeah ,it really is a session by session deal with me.
And sometimes that Soundgarden ringy thing is the way to go.

I agree that the B-B's are a good best bet for an overall great recording drum.
love my old supra's too,especially the 6.5x14 COB ones

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Also I have some newer Craviotto wood snares that I thought were good but to ringy..

I always use some damping method, even if it's a tiny piece of gaffa on the edge......sometimes a wedge of tissue held on with gaffa.

But to me the Craviotto snares are unbeatable (just as they come). It just goes to show personal taste is a factor.
I have 4 x Crav's of various types.
They are always picked by producers and engineers, the only exception being my 20's Black Beauty which is also very popular.

So I re-edged them with 30% roundover edges instead of the sharp 45%'s they come with.and now they sound amazingthumbsup

You can buy Craviotto snares with Johnny's own 30degree edge.
I haven't tried one yet, but I'd like to.
Craviotto has also brought out a brass drum to rival the 1920's era BB:
Steve Maxwell Pro Percussion and Jazz Workshop

[Blindside]

Any experience with Beier Snares? I saw one today that was a 3 mm thick hand-turned cast brass shell that was nice looking. Any thoughts?

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by chrisso

I always use some damping method, even if it's a tiny piece of gaffa on the edge......sometimes a wedge of tissue held on with gaffa.

But to me the Craviotto snares are unbeatable (just as they come). It just goes to show personal taste is a factor.
I have 4 x Crav's of various types.
They are always picked by producers and engineers, the only exception being my 20's Black Beauty which is also very popular.



You can buy Craviotto snares with Johnny's own 30degree edge.
I haven't tried one yet, but I'd like to.
Craviotto has also brought out a brass drum to rival the 1920's era BB:
Steve Maxwell Pro Percussion and Jazz Workshop

I'm hip to Johnnies 30 roundover's too.thumbsup
The 6.5 cherry I got a few years back already had the 45.
also the 5.5 x14 came with the full set I just got had 45's.
I usually do my own edges on my router table and hand finish them,but i decided to let Ross [Drum Doc] have a go.gotta say,the guy has a sixth sense when it comes to tweaking drums.redid all edges/beds by hand and the drums sound so fat and focused nowthumbsup
Ive seen the Cravvie brass..looks insane.

I also just grabbed one of those Joyfull Noise Black Beautyesque drums.
all brass.all nickel over brass hardware/hoops/screws,strainer,etc
Amazing drum..just sounds beautiful.
I just put solid NOB single flange hoops on it.
the warmest sounding metal drum i've ever played.
reminds me my 20's BB but w/ a better tuning range.
Highly reccomended

[Jax]

Originally Posted by Blindside

I played a 8x14 Yamaha Cact Brass Snare at GC a few months ago that sounded awesome. Ibelieve both of these are 1.3 mil thick brass.

I know we're not talking about looks, but I really like the clean, elegant look of the drum you mentioned (might not be the same one).

[Jax]

About those smaller/cheaper lips that are stock on many drums - I've been wanting to try a set of COB hoops, and the Willoughcraft set could be the ones to get:

I haven't tried them, but they could be a very worthwhile upgrade.

Willoughcraft COB Generation II 14/10 snare set - (eBay item 250035790500 end time Nov-27-07 14:29:31 PST)

[Blindside]

I think I'm buying this....

6.5x14 3mm thick hand turned cast brass snare by Beier drums. Incredible customer service by Jim Beier himself. Really nice guy. The drum is 16.5 lbs. Pretty as hell, too.

If I get it, should I get a 42 strand snare wire, or stick with the stock ones. I've never used the 42s, but would imagine they could be cool.

[Blindside]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Just record em right and you won't have to start using all those samples to fix em like everyone else does
.

That's precisely the reason I need a snare collection. Right now all I've got is a '70s Gretsch 8x14 6ply Maple snare that I love, and a 7x12 10 ply Maryland Natural Maple snare that's cool, but I'm trying to sell it in favor of the brass beast.

F*** samples. There's nothing like the sound of a real drum into a mic into a nice preamp, IMO. Sure you can get an identical crack everytime when you sample, but where's the mojo in that? Plus, I use a ton of grace notes and use the entire head for different sounds, so samples just won't cut it.

It's good to see someone that agrees with me.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by Blindside

I think I'm buying this....

6.5x14 3mm thick hand turned cast brass snare by Beier drums. Incredible customer service by Jim Beier himself. Really nice guy. The drum is 16.5 lbs. Pretty as hell, too.

If I get it, should I get a 42 strand snare wire, or stick with the stock ones. I've never used the 42s, but would imagine they could be cool.

That looks cool.but you never know until you hear it.
thats why return policies are a good thing.
As far as 42 strands.It really depends on the drum and beds.
I have some drums that sound better with the cheap 42 strands than with the expensive hi count puresound wires.
more expensive doesn't always equate better sound.
Also some drums don't like hi wire counts..too buzzy.
they're all different.
Experiment.It's the only way to find out what works best for that particular drum

[Blindside]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

That looks cool.but you never know until you hear it.
thats why return policies are a good thing.
As far as 42 strands.It really depends on the drum and beds.
I have some drums that sound better with the cheap 42 strands than with the expensive hi count puresound wires.
more expensive doesn't always equate better sound.
Also some drums don't like hi wire counts..too buzzy.
they're all different.
Experiment.It's the only way to find out what works best for that particular drum

That's very true. I custom ordered a snare from OCDP and it was the worst sounding snare I've ever heard. It put me out $975. ( large vent holes = crap)

I figure this new drum can't be but so bad. I could be wrong, like you said, you never know until you hear it, but I have a good feeling.

I hope I'm right....

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by Blindside

That's very true. I custom ordered a snare from OCDP and it was the worst sounding snare I've ever heard. It put me out $975. ( large vent holes = crap)

For $975.00 i could've built you 3 killer snare drums that would've actually sounded good.

dfegadOCDP= some of the most overhyped overpriced drums I've ever seen.
I have yet to hear one of their kits or snares that blew me away.
The multi snare venthole thing is a total joke.worthless.
The poor kids that worship Travis Barker,etc get sucked into the whole OCDP hype

[Blindside]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

For $975.00 i could've built you 3 killer snare drums that would've actually sounded good.

dfegadOCDP= some of the most overhyped overpriced drums I've ever seen.
I have yet to hear one of their kits or snares that blew me away.
The multi snare venthole thing is a total joke.worthless.
The poor kids that worship Travis Barker,etc get sucked into the whole OCDP hype

So, so true in every way. I was one of those naive kids at that point in my life. The thing is, it was a 7.5x14 10 ply snare with 6 ply rein. rings. I ordered 1.25" vents for a little added sensitivity, and it came with the full size 2.5" vents. like an idiot I didn't send it back. The thing is, it took 9 months to freaking get here so I wanted so bad to like it, but i sh*t you not, it was THE worst sounding drum I've ever heard, seriously. I traded it to GC for a K custom Dry Ride just to get it out of my face. God, what a b*tch that was.... BTW, worst customer service I've ever dealt with, bar none.

I take it you make drums... I might have to take you up on that. What sort of options do you offer?

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by Blindside

That's very true. I custom ordered a snare from OCDP and it was the worst sounding snare I've ever heard.

That's why I always recommend drummers put together an arsenal of 'the usual suspects' before they do anything else.
They aren't all expensive.......
6.5" Supraphonic
6.5" Black Beauty
A single-ply snare drum or two. The most famous being the Radio King, but more modern drums sound great and are easier to find a good one = N&C Classic, Slingerland Radio King reissue (90's), Craviotto limited edition Maple and Black Cherry.

Perhaps a 60's Acrolite (Ludwig).
Once you've got a few of those you can branch out into the boutique drums like Brady Jarrah, Ayotte and stuff like the Joyous Lake and Ocheltree already mentioned.
Recordingwise you can go a very long way with a quality 6.5" brass drum (ala BB) and a quality 6.5" single-ply wood drum (ala Radio King).

[Blindside]

Originally Posted by chrisso

That's why I always recommend drummers put together an arsenal of 'the usual suspects' before they do anything else.
They aren't all expensive.......
6.5" Supraphonic
6.5" Black Beauty
A single-ply snare drum or two. The most famous being the Radio King, but more modern drums sound great and are easier to find a good one = N&C Classic, Slingerland Radio King reissue (90's), Craviotto limited edition Maple and Black Cherry.

Perhaps a 60's Acrolite (Ludwig).
Once you've got a few of those you can branch out into the boutique drums like Brady Jarrah, Ayotte and stuff like the Joyous Lake and Ocheltree already mentioned.
Recordingwise you can go a very long way with a quality 6.5" brass drum (ala BB) and a quality 6.5" single-ply wood drum (ala Radio King).

If only I'd known this 4 years ago......

I've got an Ayotte kit and love it, BTW. I'm hoping this new brass snare will compliment it well.

This is why it sucks being a poor slut. Playing drums, guitars, basses, mandos, making electronic music and recording/mixing doesn't leave a whole lot of head room, monetarily speaking, for a great collection of any of them. I have to go with versatility and work with what I've got. I'm hoping this brass snare, paired with my 8x14 maple Gretsch will suit my needs. It'll have to, at least for a while.

I've been very interested in Brady and Craviotto drums recently. We'll see what the future holds, I guess.....

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by Blindside

I take it you make drums... I might have to take you up on that. What sort of options do you offer?

Yes..but unfortuneatly I only really have time to make stuff for myself right now.

I'm gonna start final polishing on this nice blood red sparkle Lacquer 8 x 14 10 ply snare in about 15 minutes

[Blindside]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Yes..but unfortuneatly I only really have time to make stuff for myself right now.

I'm gonna start final polishing on this nice blood red sparkle Lacquer 8 x 14 10 ply snare in about 15 minutes

Looks nice, man. You should post some pics of the finished product when you're done...

[Jax]

Originally Posted by chrisso

That's why I always recommend drummers put together an arsenal of 'the usual suspects' before they do anything else.
They aren't all expensive.......
6.5" Supraphonic
6.5" Black Beauty
A single-ply snare drum or two. The most famous being the Radio King, but more modern drums sound great and are easier to find a good one = N&C Classic, Slingerland Radio King reissue (90's), Craviotto limited edition Maple and Black Cherry.

Perhaps a 60's Acrolite (Ludwig).
Once you've got a few of those you can branch out into the boutique drums like Brady Jarrah, Ayotte and stuff like the Joyous Lake and Ocheltree already mentioned.
Recordingwise you can go a very long way with a quality 6.5" brass drum (ala BB) and a quality 6.5" single-ply wood drum (ala Radio King).

This is great advice.

[chrisso]

Thanks.
I also learned the hard way.
Did a few sessions with respected producers and they were always commenting on my lack of industry standard snares. After we rented drums in - with a sour look on their face - I thought I'd better get me some.

I always give out this advice.
I often meet resistrance; "x drum is better than a Supra", or "x drum gives me my signature sound" etc....
But I don't say you have to own all these drums listed above and nothing else.
It can give you a bit of confidence to walk into an important session with one or two drums you know the producer will have had great results with in the past.

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by Blindside

Looks nice, man. You should post some pics of the finished product when you're done...

Thanks a lot.i certainly will.
just finished this maple 1 ply last week.
Also building newish Radio King 6.5X14 outt'a NOS parts from the 50's,
totally virgin 50 year old RK shell