Istanbul Agop Cymbals...HOLY SHIT

[lpkyer]

Just received the following cymbals:

Sultan 14" hi hats
Signature 19" crash
Turk 21" Jazz ride

I've played Sabians (AA, AAX, etc) for 3 years, Zildjians (K, A, Custom, Z etc) for the same amount of time and Paistes for the last 2 years...
I thought Paiste were good but man...These are the stuff !!!


I actually bought those istanbuls from an advice I read here....
the hype is true !

[nandoanalog]

.... .... No it isn`t.

[Monty Sneddon]

Originally Posted by lpkyer

Just received the following cymbals:

Sultan 14" hi hats
Signature 19" crash
Turk 21" Jazz ride

I've played Sabians (AA, AAX, etc) for 3 years, Zildjians (K, A, Custom, Z etc) for the same amount of time and Paistes for the last 2 years...
I thought Paiste were good but man...These are the stuff !!!


I actually bought those istanbuls from an advice I read here....
the hype is true !

I'd have to agree.. I play cymbals made by a company called 'Turkish' and they sound very similar to Istanbuls. When I was at the Frankfurt music fair this year, all the best cymbals I play were from smaller companies, some I'd never even heard of!

[lpkyer]

Yeah totally...they seem to be the only ones to do them "right" for a decent price !

[nandoanalog]

At Portugal, zildjian sounds good. Sabian sounds good. Istambul sounds "guitar center".

Don`t know how it sounds in the U.S. , but they sure sound cheap here...

[joeq]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

At Portugal, zildjian sounds good. Sabian sounds good. Istambul sounds "guitar center".

Don`t know how it sounds in the U.S. , but they sure sound cheap here...

maybe it's something in the water.

seriously, I am sure that personal preference has more to do with it than geography.

[Monty Sneddon]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

At Portugal, zildjian sounds good. Sabian sounds good. Istambul sounds "guitar center".

Don`t know how it sounds in the U.S. , but they sure sound cheap here...

Any of the Istanbuls I've heard sound anything but cheap.

[nandoanalog]

Originally Posted by joeq

maybe it's something in the water.

seriously, I am sure that personal preference has more to do with it than geography.

It`s not about geography.... It must be about the air... At Portugal we have this wonderful clean air that doesn`t smell like oil. And sound can go through it more easily...

What I mean is, we have clean air. So, the sound is clear...

Istambul sounds cheap here.... They don`t sound bad... But they sure don`t sound any closer to any good zildjian or sabian cymbal...

Gotta be this "sound through clean air" thing....


They sure sound "impressive".... And you`ll love them... If you don`t know how a good cymbal sounds like...

It`s a matter of taste...


And clean air...

[Monty Sneddon]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

It`s not about geography.... It must be about the air... At Portugal we have this wonderful clean air that doesn`t smell like oil. And sound can go through it more easily...

What I mean is, we have clean air. So, the sound is clear...

Istambul sounds cheap here.... They don`t sound bad... But they sure don`t sound any closer to any good zildjian or sabian cymbal...

Gotta be this "sound through clean air" thing....


They sure sound "impressive".... And you`ll love them... If you don`t know how a good cymbal sounds like...

It`s a matter of taste...


And clean air...

Hmmmmmm...... Are you saying that you're the only person to know what a good cymbal sounds like and the rest of us don't then?

[toolskid]

istanbul can be great

but a lot of the time the quality is flawed!

very inconsistent cymbals

[PhatStax Drums]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

They sure sound "impressive".... And you`ll love them... If you don`t know how a good cymbal sounds like...

It`s a matter of taste...


And clean air...

I'm very confused.

Indeed.

Hey, I love my Zildjians, just personally, but then again I haven't had the luxury of trying lots of boutique, or, for that matter, many cymbals actually made in Turkey, but I'm sure these Istanbuls are probably wonderful (or better) and in the right hands, it's all a matter of taste, they couldn't be that bad (to say the least) and in fact could well be better.

I don't know, it just seems that an Istanbul cymbal would certainly be a legitimate musical instrument, not something someone who knows something about cymbals "should" necessarily dislike, it seems a bit presumptuous to say that. Perhaps you're right, but I doubt it.

I will say that I DO have some Istanbul "green label" cymbals that someone was selling cheap on eBay a few years ago and I picked two up for very reasonable prices.

These were not low-end cymbals, the green label meant something obviously (I forget offhand), but these cymbals have every bit as good quality as Zildjians in my opinion, and again it would only be a matter of taste as to preference, these are top-quality cymbals, at least the ones I have.

`Matter of fact I happen to have thrown one of them on my kit I currently have set up that I'm woodshedding on. True, my Istanbuls haven't seen many gigs, but that's because I play mostly rock and country, little jazz : ( if I played more acoustic jazz they might make it out more. Then again, I do have many Zildjian fifties block-letter cymbals that have that glassy sound that might make it out instead.


Okay, nuff of that from meeeeeee

[Monty Sneddon]

Originally Posted by toolskid

istanbul can be great

but a lot of the time the quality is flawed!

very inconsistent cymbals

That can indeed be the case...

[Bierce85]

In the spirit of stating your opinions as facts:

Paistes are the best! (it's true you know)

[PhatStax Drums]

What's wrong, per se, with an inconsistent cymbal line?

Sure, it's nice if something can sound hand-crafted and wonderful, but at the same time be stamped out by a largely automated process that produces cymbals that all sound pretty much the same, why not?

But, Zildjian Istanbul K's (arguably THE best ever made, of course) were notoriously inconsistent.

Cymbals (especially hand-crafted ones) are by their very nature, inconsistent, almost the definition of mystery.

Sort of like saying "I like Rembrandt, but his paintings aren't all the same, and funny, it's the same way with Goya, too," only different.

The two green-label Istanbuls I got sound-unheard off eBay are both very good cymbals, nice tone, no overriding overtones....really nice cymbals. Some of the Zildjians I have, have a better stick sound, but it's just a difference in taste. Top quality.

[toolskid]

Originally Posted by PhatStax Drums

What's wrong, per se, with an inconsistent cymbal line?

well..

tonal, feeling and other character based inconsistency is great, but a large amount being really crappy sounding, playing badly and being fragile doesnt seem too clever to me...

[nandoanalog]

Originally Posted by toolskid

well..

tonal, feeling and other character based inconsistency is great, but a large amount being really crappy sounding, playing badly and being fragile doesnt seem too clever to me...

Actually, (and I know that many didn`t get it) I was joking... I think that the forum doesn`t need another overhyped brand hanging around...

When it comes to instruments, it`s all matter of taste...

But I gotta agree with toolskid on that one. I have played on many istambul cymbals. First if all, they are not my kind of cymbal at all. Then, it`s the quality.... They are made out of "glass"....

If you are a "soft" player, they can please you if you like that kind of cymbal...
Buy they are just way too fragile for me (and for a bunch of other people).

Let the true be told... Nothing, and I mean nothing comes close to zildjian constantinople and K series (I`m talking about the really good ones). The only problem is that they are not suitable for all kinds of music...

And you can and and and and they just wont break....

Since nothing in the world is indestructible, if one of them breaks, you can get one that sounds 99% the same.

[toolskid]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

Let the true be told... Nothing, and I mean nothing comes close to zildjian constantinople and K series (I`m talking about the really good ones). The only problem is that they are not suitable for all kinds of music...

I'd have to disagree MASSIVELY with this

I beleive them to be the worst examples of mass produced cymbals today!! And thats pretty consistent!!!! Check out some boutique cymbals and you'll see what I mean - Johan Custom Cymbals, Mike Skiba, Spizzichino, Hubback - a different world...

[nandoanalog]

(I`m talking about the really good ones).

...

[lpkyer]

nando: maybe you're talking about the mehmet series ! Those I heard did sound cheap indeed.
The ones I'm talking about are Istanbul AGOP....


They're probably inconsistent...but I try to pick and match my cymbals.And...theyre pretty unique because of their weight.

[Jax]

Originally Posted by Monty Sneddon

Any of the Istanbuls I've heard sound anything but cheap.

Gotta agree. I've heard some great ones in a few drum shops around here. Or like it was said, it could well be a subjective thing.

[Jax]

By the way, the cymbals I heard and played that pleased me the most recently are sold only out of one drum shop, here in Northern California. I'm not trying to push them (nor do I work for the company, etc.) but they are very consistent, sound like old K's but also with a hint of that clean Paiste shimmer, and the price is quite fair for what you get. I like their crashes much better than their rides, so far.

I know what kind of crashes I'm picking up next!

Here's a link to their site (cymbal blurb at bottom middle):

A Drummer's Tradition

If this gets them business, I'm more than happy to have helped! It's a killer drum shop!

[Jax]

Whoa... just noticed something a little weird on their website. The "NEW Plaza de ADT Internacionale" does not exist! At least not in San Rafael, I can verify that! They do say "actual building looks much smaller in person," but the actual store is only 1 floor. There is no Northern Wing, 4th floor. Wtf?!

They could be just joking around, but it looks like an attempt to make themselves look more impressive than they think they are... bad move! But still a great store.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by toolskid

I'd have to disagree MASSIVELY with this

I believe you are confusing personal taste with hard fact.
I spent the whole of last summer demoing, playing and sometimes buying istanbul agop cymbals (both in the UK, Canada and USA).
I didn't find one that 'sounded crappy', or 'played badly' (How does a cymbal 'play badly' by the way? They are tools, drummers may use their tools badly I suppose).
Anyway I found some I didn't like (as a matter of taste) and quite a few I liked.
Yes, many of them sound different (although not that inconsistent IMO), but that's the beauty of hand made cymbals. Lots of different tonalities to choose from!!!!
Regarding K Zildjian:

I beleive them to be the worst examples of mass produced cymbals today!! And thats pretty consistent!!!!

Please make clear this is your personal taste only talking again.
In no way could the K Cons and newer K cymbals be 'the worst'. Hey, you don't like the sound.....fine.
I've played some fantastic ones recently. Particularly the Cindy Blackman designed K ride. I've heard worse cymbals on the block.
How do explain master musicians like Cindy and Vinnie playing K Con's, or Joey waronker and Matt Chamberlain recently signing on with Istanbul Agop?
But my attitude is much different from yours.
I've heard many great cymbals by all the well known mainstream makers. I don't dismiss them just because there are some boutique workshops.
I've owned a couple of Steve Hubback's too and demoed quite a few Spizzichino's.
I wouldn't recommend them to every drummer, or for everyday pop/rock drumming
Yes, they are artisans making incredible cymbals, but that doesn't make K Zildjian's or Agops unplayable.

[toolskid]

Originally Posted by chrisso

I believe you are confusing personal taste with hard fact.
I spent the whole of last summer demoing, playing and sometimes buying istanbul agop cymbals (both in the UK, Canada and USA).
I didn't find one that 'sounded crappy', or 'played badly' (How does a cymbal 'play badly' by the way? They are tools, drummers may use their tools badly I suppose).
Anyway I found some I didn't like (as a matter of taste) and quite a few I liked.
Yes, many of them sound different (although not that inconsistent IMO), but that's the beauty of hand made cymbals. Lots of different tonalities to choose from!!!!
Regarding K Zildjian:

Please make clear this is your personal taste only talking again.
In no way could the K Cons and newer K cymbals be 'the worst'. Hey, you don't like the sound.....fine.
I've played some fantastic ones recently. Particularly the Cindy Blackman designed K ride. I've heard worse cymbals on the block.
How do explain master musicians like Cindy and Vinnie playing K Con's, or Joey waronker and Matt Chamberlain recently signing on with Istanbul Agop?
But my attitude is much different from yours.
I've heard many great cymbals by all the well known mainstream makers. I don't dismiss them just because there are some boutique workshops.
I've owned a couple of Steve Hubback's too and demoed quite a few Spizzichino's.
I wouldn't recommend them to every drummer, or for everyday pop/rock drumming
Yes, they are artisans making incredible cymbals, but that doesn't make K Zildjian's or Agops unplayable.

I have not heard any off the shelf modern Constantinoples which could be classed as a cymbal justifying the price tag. If I was not clear, that was the intention of my comments. I have never said they were unplayable.... They almost all sound 1 dimensional, uncomplex and often brash (for a cymbal that perhaps was aiming for more dark qualities).

As you well know (being a decent session drummer yourself) you can get really usable sounds out of almost any cymbal with some tape and sensitive playing.

RE endorsements: I believe you understand why endorsements exist and how that whole game works? .

'Playing badly' is maybe a subjective term. To me it means a feeling from the response of the cymbal, perhaps an unnatural stiffness, or an unsatisfying response...

I WOULD recommend every drummer to check out Johan's work, it's more varied and wide-ranging than Hubbakcs or Spizz's...

I've heard many great cymbals by all the well known mainstream makers. I don't dismiss them just because there are some boutique workshops.

I'm not dismissing them either.. especially the Agops.. if you carefully reread my post I said that they are an inconsistent line with some excellent cymbals within the range. I only use handmade cymbals btw, its not the variety I disapprove of, its the large range of shockingly bad Agops I've heard!!! I should also mention, I have just got a really really nice 21" agop from a drummer in the states!!


There are just a few boutique options which are pretty much consistently awesome, and thats within a WIDE range of tones, styles and robustness!!


Anyhow all the best to you and I respect your passionate comeback to my original post!

EVERYTHING people write on forums is pretty much their personal taste/opinion....


Say hi to Wiggy for me!!
Em!

[chrisso]

OK, I'm just gonna clear up a couple of points then......

Originally Posted by toolskid

I have not heard any off the shelf modern Constantinoples which could be classed as a cymbal justifying the price tag.

Previously you said they were 'the worst examples of mass produced cymbals' (exclamation marks), that's a much bigger slur than to say they are overpriced.
Like I said in my response, you don't like their sound and now you're adding they're too expensive to boot.
Fair enough. I wouldn't argue with that.
It's hard to say they are the worst examples of mass produced cymbals IMO.....that's all.

RE endorsements: I believe you understand why endorsements exist and how that whole game works? .

Actually, most of the guys I know endorse instruments they love and believe in.
I understand, no one is probably going to endorse Johan or Hubback (or Craviotto, or Noble & Cooley for that matter), because the customer support is not going to be worldwide. There wont be any clinics (with associated income) or free publicity either. To sum up though, I think you are doing drummers who endorse a disservice by suggesting it's 'a game'.

I WOULD recommend every drummer to check out Johan's work, it's more varied and wide-ranging than Hubbakcs or Spizz's...

I'm sure. I also really love Steve's work. A fantastic guy too. The Spizz's I've played were excellent, but didn't respond well to my (indelicate) playing style.

I'm not dismissing them either.. especially the Agops.. if you carefully reread my post I said that they are an inconsistent line with some excellent cymbals within the range.

Yeah, I bought it the first time you said it, but when you repeated it with the comment about 'a large amount being crappy sounding' I felt like redressing the balance.
I respect your desire to use cymbals like Johan's. I kinda feel you went overboard in your assasination of 'off the shelf' cymbals.

[toolskid]

Originally Posted by chrisso

I respect your desire to use cymbals like Johan's. I kinda feel you went overboard in your assasination of 'off the shelf' cymbals.

cool post man! I'm sorry if it came off like an assassination! I still stand by my opinion on endorsements tho!!! Many players do endorse stuff and use everything but in the studio!!! Other do endorse what they love! I respect that!


All the best

[Johan VDS]

Originally Posted by nandoanalog

Let the true be told... Nothing, and I mean nothing comes close to zildjian constantinople and K series (I`m talking about the really good ones)

De gustibus non est disputandum, but it's still your personal opinion. I respect your taste, but please don't call it the "truth".

I won't pretend my (very different) opinon to be the "truth" either, but some commonly desired aspects of really good jazz or cymbals in general are that they should NOT sound one-directional, they should rather offer a complexity of sound which should give the player the possiblilty to obtain a multitude of sounds and thus allow him to become more creative. They should also not have to be played hard to get the sound to open up, They should offer a lot of dynamics and respond well at the softest stroke.

Only a very small minority of K Cons I've heard meet up to those expectatons to some extent. But the vast majority I've heard basically just sound like lower pitched pop cymbals to me, not offering the complexity and dynamic range you'd expect of a cymbal named "Constantinople" (which should evoke the sound of old K's). Frankly, most of the ones I've heard were one-dimensional, stiff sounding pingy cymbals which only sound halfway decent in a very limited dynamic range. The so desired wash that's separated from the stick just isn't there with most of them.

I have been sent quite a bit K Cons for modification by drummers who were dissatisfied with them because of the reasons I've just mentioned. When receiving and hearing the cymbals I could only agree.

Next to this, K Cons are fully machine hammered cymbals, just like A's and modern K's are. The price difference is totally artificial and a pure marketing ploy, merely intended to lure people into thinking that they are handmade, which they are NOT.

[chetatkinsdiet]

I've been playing Istanbuls for about 10 years now. I absolutely love them. Sure the consistency is not the same as one of the mass produced lines from Paiste or Zildjian, but you can also stumble across some cymbals that are incredible. It's hard to say one's better than the other as it's all just personal taste and we all have "that sound" in our heads that we look for in cymbals.
As far as the guy in Portugal that was talking about Istanbuls being cheap...I'm guessing it was tongue in cheek, because, Istanbul does make some inexpensive lines, just like Zildjian and Paiste. To classify them all as sounding "guitar center" while the others are something better is absurd. I've got about 20 different Istanbuls and everyone that's ever heard them has been blown away. Actually, once I got the ones I have now, I sold all my original K's as I just didn't play them anymore. Also, the fact that the prices shot through the roof and I got about a grand each for them.

later,

m

[nandoanalog]

When I said K constantinople, I meant K`s (modern K), and Constantinople...

It is very true when you guys say that constantinoples sound bad...

My first constantinople sounded really bad... It last for a month or so before I broke it into several pieces...

But my 22 and 24 rides are simply amazing (both thin). My constantinople hi hats are amazing. All my modern K`s are amazing. They probably aren`t the most amazing cymbals in the world, but they are amazing enough for drummers asking me ALL THE TIME to borrow them.

When they listen to my K crashes hats and ride, they say always the same thing... Best crash I`ve heard, best 13" hat I`ve heard, amazing ride.

The big problem with people who have bad sounding cymbals, is only one. When they bought them, they where deaf. And when they came home, all of a suden they got ears....

Out of all the brands I`ve tried until today, I kept zildjian. Not only for tonal reasons. But because zildjian was the only brand I found that responds well for agressive playing.

Sabian has some cymbals that respond well to agressive stuff... Paiste has a few more...

But for some reason, sabian and paite cymbals break a bit easier (I`m not even going to mention other brands)...


It`s obviously that it`s all a matter of taste...

I like cymbals that fit my style. I like cymbals that I can play for a few months you know... I like cymbals that sound good when I push them.



(I hope someone from zildjian sees this thread and makes me a full "Fernando Ascenção" line of cymbals )

[nandoanalog]

Not to mention that it really doesn`t matter.... Your 15 mic collection will ruin your cymbals sound anyway....