difference between new and vintage ludwigs

[zodiaque]

hey
I've got a vintage Ludwig 24x14 kick and two Ludwig snares, a 14x5 acrolite from '69 and a newer 14x6,5 maple. now I've started to look for some toms and I wonder: how do the new classic maple drums compare to the vintage ones? are they equally as good?

thanks!
peter

[chetatkinsdiet]

The new drums are nice, but closer to the old 6ply shells, not the earlier 3 plys with reinforcement rings.

m

[ToneBender67]

3 ply is the CLASSIC Ludwig sound. I've had nothing but bad experiences with modern Ludwig maple shells. They sound nothing like the old (good) ones.

You can get nice 3 ply orphan toms on Ebay without spending a fortune. Late 60's to early 70's clear maple interior shells are wonderful; tune them low and boomy, tight and ringy, you really can't go wrong. You won't get nearly the tuning range (versatility) or tone with newer Ludwigs.

[zodiaque]

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

3 ply is the CLASSIC Ludwig sound. I've had nothing but bad experiences with modern Ludwig maple shells. They sound nothing like the old (good) ones.

hey tonebender,
did you have bad experiences with modern ludwig snares too? cause the classic maple snare I have is just a few years old but I think I like it. although i have no comparison to a vintage maple snare.

I uploaded a short mp3 clip that I quickly recorded in my rehearsal room where you can hear the snare. it's in the other thread about the bassdrum.
******//www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=109730

[C/G]

I've got a new USA made maple classic set that sounds great. It sounds much nicer than my friends old olive badge kit. I can tune very well and I tuned his kit for him so, obviously this is mileage may very situation.

I've heard lots of old Ludwigs that sound killer and some that sound crappy.

It obviously all depends upon the condition of the drums as well as tuning and definitely who is sitting behind the kit.

[chetatkinsdiet]

I've had plenty of 3 ply and 6 ply kits....they're all good. It just depends on what you're looking for. Bohnam did equally well on all the above....including stainless and vistas. No matter what kit he played, it pretty much sounded the same.

With the older luddies, just make sure they're still round. They did have a tendency to go out more than their Rogers or Gretsch counterparts. Hence the reason everyone's more fanatical about those two lines. I don't really fret too much over it though. Part of the charm of vintage drums is worn bearing edges and out of round sound.

Our myspace page has three songs recorded with my 6 ply luddies w/ 70s Supra snare. I think they sound pretty nice. Check out the pics too....I love this kit.

www.myspace.com/natefowlerselixir

m

[zodiaque]

I've been at a trail of dead show in a small club tonight. the drummer played a new ludwig kit and it sounded amazing. I wondered if they used it in the studio too cause the drumsound on their latest 2 albums is really nice.

btw, colin: the songs on your myspace page, especially the first one, are very cool!

[mrpoole]

I am pretty sure that Ludwig shells up until the mid to late 90's were a sandwich of maple / poplar / maple / poplar / maple etc etc.... I have a Super Classic kit from the late 80's with this shell configuration and they sound great.

It's much more important that you know how different heads.. top AND bottom, and different tunings effect your drum sound. Also it's about how you hit the drum, your stick, your style.. all these things comprise a drum sound. I wouldn't worry so much about all maple or vintage or new or whatever.... just tune 'em good and hit em right... The resluts will be just fine...

It's only rock and roll.. nobody really cares.

Mrpoole

[C/G]

Originally Posted by zodiaque

I've been at a trail of dead show in a small club tonight. the drummer played a new ludwig kit and it sounded amazing. I wondered if they used it in the studio too cause the drumsound on their latest 2 albums is really nice.

btw, colin: the songs on your myspace page, especially the first one, are very cool!

Thanks for the kind words.

I actually record with an Ayotte custom maple kit. Wood hoops and thinner plys than the Ludwigs, but my Ludwig kit is exactly the same dimensions and sound almost as good and were a 1/4 of the price of the Ayottes.

I'm sure if I got a standard finish and not a wrap, the Luddy's would sound a little better.

Both kits have a 24" kick. The Ayotte is 24" X 17" and the Ludwig is a 24" X 16", using the same skins and Evans EQ pad inside. The two sound very similar but the Ayottes have something about them that make them sound better..

[ToneBender67]

Originally Posted by zodiaque

hey tonebender,
did you have bad experiences with modern ludwig snares too? cause the classic maple snare I have is just a few years old but I think I like it. although i have no comparison to a vintage maple snare.

I was forced to use Classic Maple sets for a few years. I was playing Ringo in a Beatle tribute act and the group owned a set in black oyster pearl. That kit was a complete piece of shit, and my first experience with newer Ludwigs. It must have been made at 4:30PM on a Friday.
Often, we'd fly to gigs and couldn't bring the whole back line. We'd specify amps and drums and just brought guitars/sticks/cymbals. I was typically stuck with BOP Classic Maples (although a few times, to my surprise, I was provided with a vintage 60's BOP kit). There was always something wrong with them; poorly cut bearing edges, out of round, wrap lifting, sub par strainers, on and on. Just general quality control issues that shouldn't be there that consistently. I must have played on 50 of those sets, and at least half of them were problematic. I also had to work overly hard to tune them to get a decent sound. They might be great for modern music, but I was replicating Ringo, who typically had an amazing, warm, punchy sound with lots of tone throughout his Beatle career (which comes down to: tuning, how he hit, Abbey Road engineers/mics/room, and 3 PLY DRUMS). The few times I was provided with 60's BOP 3 ply kits, the band (pretty anal when it came to gear and getting correct sound) literally freaked out at how much better they sounded.

When I was playing with the same Beatle group in Vegas, Todd Trent of Ludwig drums was at a performance. Afterwards, he introduced himself and asked how I liked the drums. The group chimed in how they are generally sterile compared to the old ones. I flat out said they sucked. He was taken aback and went so far as to claim they sound exactly the same as the old ones. He must be deaf....

This is all subjective of course, but my opinion is this: Classic Maples might say Ludwig, have the same lugs and even badges as the old ones, but that's where it ends. The new Speedking pedal is pretty good (as it's basically the same as the old one) as are the Supraphonic and Black Beauty, but I wouldn't recommend Classic Maples to my worst enemy.

I own 7 Ludwig sets, 6 are 3-ply (the other is a Vistalite kit). That's 25 3-ply drums dating back to 1959 (WFL) and as current as 1975. Not one is out of round. 2 needed the edges trued. All sound amazing.

Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet

I've had plenty of 3 ply and 6 ply kits....they're all good. It just depends on what you're looking for. Bohnam did equally well on all the above....including stainless and vistas. No matter what kit he played, it pretty much sounded the same.

True, to an extent. Bonham never recorded with the Vista or Stainless kit though. His recording drums were always 3-ply, mainly a green sparkle set from '71. Allegedly, he orderd a black sparkle set (24, 13, 16, 18, smaller then his normal configuration) for the US 1981 tour, which would have been 6-ply.

[C/G]

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

....That kit was a complete piece of shit, and my first experience with newer Ludwigs. It must have been made at 4:30PM on a Friday.
Often, we'd fly to gigs and couldn't bring the whole back line. We'd specify amps and drums and just brought guitars/sticks/cymbals. I was typically stuck with BOP Classic Maples (although a few times, to my surprise, I was provided with a vintage 60's BOP kit). There was always something wrong with them; poorly cut bearing edges, out of round, wrap lifting, sub par strainers, on and on. Just general quality control issues that shouldn't be there that consistently. I must have played on 50 of those sets, and at least half of them were problematic. I also had to work overly hard to tune them to get a decent sound. They might be great for modern music, but I was replicating Ringo, who typically had an amazing, warm, punchy sound with lots of tone throughout his Beatle career (which comes down to: tuning, how he hit, Abbey Road engineers/mics/room, and 3 PLY DRUMS). The few times I was provided with 60's BOP 3 ply kits, the band (pretty anal when it came to gear and getting correct sound) literally freaked out at how much better they sounded.

When I was playing with the same Beatle group in Vegas, Todd Trent of Ludwig drums was at a performance. Afterwards, he introduced himself and asked how I liked the drums. The group chimed in how they are generally sterile compared to the old ones. I flat out said they sucked. He was taken aback and went so far as to claim they sound exactly the same as the old ones. He must be deaf....

This is all subjective of course, but my opinion is this: Classic Maples might say Ludwig, have the same lugs and even badges as the old ones, but that's where it ends. The new Speedking pedal is pretty good (as it's basically the same as the old one) as are the Supraphonic and Black Beauty, but I wouldn't recommend Classic Maples to my worst enemy.

I agree with QC issues. One of my bass drum hoops was bitched from the get go. It took almost a year for the first replecemnet to show up (November 06) and it was screwed like the first but way worse. The black oyster inlay was glued in crooked and there were splinters sticking out from a bad router job for the inlay.

It is now March 07 and another replcement has yet to show up. The Ludwig guy actually got a bit snippy with the salesman at the store I bought them from for wanting to return it for a better one. fuuck

The bearing edges need a recut as they are kind of sketchy. I bought the kit purely for live use since I didn't want to bash my Ayotte kit.

Despite the issues I have the kit actually sounds pretty good and it will sound way better once the bearing edges are recut.

[ToneBender67]

Colin

It sucks about the QC issues. I never have bought a new set of Ludwigs, but a typical outfit seems to average around $1,500 US based on the drum magazines I get monthly. For that, you think they have it together a little more...

[C/G]

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

Colin

It sucks about the QC issues. I never have bought a new set of Ludwigs, but a typical outfit seems to average around $1,500 US based on the drum magazines I get monthly. For that, you think they have it together a little more...

I paid $1250 CDN taxes in, for a 24" kick, 12" rack tom and 16" floor tom in the black oyster wrap. Compared to the $4500 CDN I paid for the same configurations in the custom Ayottes I wasn't expecting much from the Ludwigs.

The Luddys did sound better than I expected them to so I was pretty happy about that. After a bearing recut and some cast hoops I'll probably like them even more. But for a live only kit I couldn't ask for much more. Except a new bass drum hoop. Oh well, at least they have a 5 year warranty.

[zodiaque]

Originally Posted by C/G

After a bearing recut and some cast hoops I'll probably like them even more

are you talking about diecast hoops? cause I have them on my snaredrums, but don't know if they would be cool on ludwig toms too?

[C/G]

Originally Posted by zodiaque

are you talking about diecast hoops? cause I have them on my snaredrums, but don't know if they would be cool on ludwig toms too?

Yes, I'm putting them on my toms. The stock ones are total crap.

[zodiaque]

Originally Posted by C/G

Yes, I'm putting them on my toms. The stock ones are total crap.

and will you take diecast hoops from ludwig or from another brand? the tama diecast zinc hoops that I use on my snares are great.

and thanks again for all the input!

[C/G]

Originally Posted by zodiaque

and will you take diecast hoops from ludwig or from another brand? the tama diecast zinc hoops that I use on my snares are great.

and thanks again for all the input!

I'll go with Noble & Cooley or Pearl. The new Pearl ones are supposed to be really good and are at a really decent price.

[ToneBender67]

I always thought diecast hoops on toms deaden them too much. I dig them on a snare occasionally (takes the ring out nicely) but they'll kill your toms. Then again, Classic Maple toms are a ringy, toneless nightmare, so muffling them some might be a good idea!

The stock Ludwig hoops are Asian made knock offs of the 2 mm chrome over steel hoops. They are very similar to the hoops that were on drums 40 years ago and are still the standard today. I still think it's the shells moreso then the hoops that are crap. You can put a Rolls Royce grill on a Yugo...it's still a Yugo...

[JB872]

Looking at buying a new Acrolite. Is there a big difference between the new and older "olive badge" Acrolites?

[zodiaque]

just wanted to tell you guys i ended up buying 1970 3ply toms from ebay and i'm loving it! highly recommended, and still quite cheap compared to almost all new highend drums. also got a 6,5 black beauty which is equally as nice.
so thanks for all the input! thumbsup
this is a pic of me with my set in the studio.

[zodiaque]

Originally Posted by JB872

Looking at buying a new Acrolite. Is there a big difference between the new and older "olive badge" Acrolites?

never heard the new ones, but i can highly recommend getting a vintage acrolite! you can easily find one in great condition, they sound absolutely amazing and are much cheaper than the current model. so why buy new?

[JB872]

Originally Posted by zodiaque

never heard the new ones, but i can highly recommend getting a vintage acrolite! you can easily find one in great condition, they sound absolutely amazing and are much cheaper than the current model. so why buy new?

I agree that the vintage acrolite is easy to find in the States, but not as easy here in Canada. And the CDN$$ is so low right now that it doesn't make too much sense to buy off ebay from a US seller. There is a guy on ebay canada selling a handful of new Acrolites though and that's why I was wondering how they compared.

[Chunkaway]

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

3 ply is the CLASSIC Ludwig sound. I've had nothing but bad experiences with modern Ludwig maple shells. They sound nothing like the old (good) ones.

You can get nice 3 ply orphan toms on Ebay without spending a fortune. Late 60's to early 70's clear maple interior shells are wonderful; tune them low and boomy, tight and ringy, you really can't go wrong. You won't get nearly the tuning range (versatility) or tone with newer Ludwigs.

I have a 1968 Ludwig and a 2008 Ludwig Classic Maple. Let me start by saying they have very different sounds. The 1968 kit is warm and "round" with a good tuning range. While the 2008 kit is not quite as warm, it produces cleaner tones and it definitely has a broader tuning range. The tuning range in the 2008 model is MUCH greater than the 1968. Perhaps it is just my drum kit though. The kit does not sound anything like Tama, Pearl, Yamaha, etc... which to my ears is a good thing.

I recently played on a recording session and I had access to a new DW kit, a new Pork Pie kit, a 2003 Ayotte, the 1968 Ludwig kit and the 2008 Ludwig kit. The 2008 Ludwig kit was used on more tracks than any of the other sets. It has a distinct sound, unlike any of the others.