Bass drum: Do you remove the external skin in the studio?

[simonv]

Hi everybody,

I'm recording my album right now in a great studio, and the studio engineer is using 2 Electro-Voice RE-20 on the kick, and we removed the external skin of the drum, and it sounds so much better!!

What's up with that? Howcome?

Why do we keep an external skin if it sounds great without one?


Cheers,
Simon

[bigbone]

It depend of what you are looking for, i did record with resonant head (that's what they are call ) and without, both way are good, usaly you make a small hole, about 6 ''
so you can place inside the shell a mic, or just poke one , deppend on the style, the room,and the set-up....but there is not 1 rules. try different set up.......

[mrface2112]

Bigbone is right--it really depends on what sound you're looking for.

i've done (and continue to do) both. without the resonant head, the sound is a little more "immediate" and punchy. with the resonant head on, it's more of a "round" sound.

i find enjoyable characteristics in both sounds.

lately i've been using an evans resonant head with a 6in hole (off-center). i put a sennheiser 609 inside the kick right up by the beater (gets a lot of slap), an EV RE38 (close cousin to the RE20) just inside the hole and aiming more at the shell (gets the punch) and an MXL V77 (tube mic) about 6-12 inches back from the head (more in the middle) which picks up the BOOM. cover the whole thing with a blanket to keep the cymbals out, and it's a very nice kick sound.

as always, YMMV

cheers,
wade

[svart]

no, I use an outer head with a 12" hole right in the center. I use the EMAD batter and a thin outer. I tune the batter then deaden it with a specially cut piece of foam. pure magic every time.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by svart

no, I use an outer head with a 12" hole right in the center.

In his DVD 'Drum Tuning and Sound Design', Bob Gatzen states any hole in the centre of the front head will have the same sonic properties as removing the head.
He also recommends the hole (offset) be around 4".

I'll leave a head on, or take it off, depending on the sound we are looking for - me, the producer and recording engineer in collaboration.

[Tapeworm]

Lately, I've been using Aquarian heads as the resonant head. I find them to be great quality heads (actually, I've only used them on the kick drum so far so I can't comment on the rest of their line) that have an off center mic hole precut. If the sound is to "boomy" or "mushy" after moving the mic around, I usually start by putting a few strips of felt across the beater head. If that does not work I'll put a towel, pillow or blanket inside the shell.

I always seem to find that whenever I record without the resonant head on, I seem to always lose quite a bit of "thump". If I were recording jazz however, losing that head might be a good thing. With guitar driven rock music, I like to hear AND feel the kick.

[svart]

I can see his point about the center hole when refering to close miking but it still makes a difference in the room tonality of the kick drum. It also helps keep the pillows in place!

[ToneBender67]

Originally Posted by simonv

Why do we keep an external skin if it sounds great without one?


Cheers,
Simon

If the drum is tuned it will sound better with a front head on.

I think a mic port hole in the resonant head has a place in certain applications (live mainly), but at that rate, cut holes in the bottom of the tom heads and shove a mic in there as well. It's easier then taking the time to tune, but the tone of the drums goes in the crapper. Listen to Bonham for proof of what leaving a front head on and good tuning sounds like (NOBODY got a better "true" bass drum sound then Bonzo).

[jcool]

actually just figured out how to tune these bitches.
I'm excited.

now, how tight do you guys normally tune the kick heads?

also, I bought some remo coated heads for the toms and ended up going back to my evans genera g2--it seems as though the coated sort couldn't be tuned as low as I needed them. sound right?

[jcool]

hey, sorry for hijacking--i thought this was the thread I started.
whoops!

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

If the drum is tuned it will sound better with a front head on.

'Better' is subjective.

I think a mic port hole in the resonant head has a place in certain applications (live mainly), but at that rate, cut holes in the bottom of the tom heads and shove a mic in there as well.

Sorry, that is nonsense. Toms perform a different role to the bass drum in the sound of the kit.
You are making a hard and fast rule for bass drums. In my experience, the only rule is to be flexible. This means going with whatever approach is required to achieve the sound needed for any given song or situation. Sometimes you go with the unported front head, sometimes you end up taking the front head off completely (and every approach in between).

It's easier then taking the time to tune, but the tone of the drums goes in the crapper.

You're implying that drummers who utilise the hole approach either can't, or can't be bothered to tune properly. Check out lot's of pictures of studio drummers (Aronoff, Gadd, Porcaro, Caliauta), oddly enough they almost always have a small hole in their front bass drum head.

Listen to Bonham for proof of what leaving a front head on and good tuning sounds like (NOBODY got a better "true" bass drum sound then Bonzo).

Bonham's bass drum sound was applicable to the 1970's. Things have moved on.
These days studio drummers are competing with software programs and sample replacement. Be as inflexible as you are and most likely your bass drum sound wont even make it onto the final mix.

[pan60]

i was under the impression a hole in the resonator head was primarily to vent the drum as to effect the bass drum pedal?
also i have been told by many drummers to remove the head or cut a hole in it so as to get rid of the ring?
i have a 22''x14'' i have been fighting getting rid of the ring and currently i am using a sand bag against the resonator head to eliminate it, ( i need to get back to tuning on it ).
i like the sound of a bass drum with the resonator head, no hole, tuned, and a drummer with a heavy foot.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by pan60

i was under the impression a hole in the resonator head was primarily to vent the drum as to effect the bass drum pedal?

It does effect the feel of the pedal. However, the primary consideration should probably be sound. Once you've got the sound you like you can get used to the feel.

also i have been told by many drummers to remove the head or cut a hole in it so as to get rid of the ring?

Damping is a better way to reduce unwanted ring (resonance).
There are pillows on the market (by Evans and DW), pre-damped front heads, or you can use something homemade.
The small hole is primarily a place sound engineers can place their mic. It also acts to vent the drum more, which changes the feel.

i like the sound of a bass drum with the resonator head, no hole, tuned, and a drummer with a heavy foot.

Yeah, why not.
You can rest something against the front head to control the ringing.

[ToneBender67]

Originally Posted by chrisso

'Better' is subjective.

It sure is my friend, and probably something we'll never agree on.

Sorry, that is nonsense. Toms perform a different role to the bass drum in the sound of the kit.

I can see your point, I wish you'd see mine. Both have reso heads. Why is it right that you can poke a hole in the bass, but not in the toms? A different role? They're both drums...

You're implying that drummers who utilise the hole approach either can't, or can't be bothered to tune properly. Check out lot's of pictures of studio drummers (Aronoff, Gadd, Porcaro, Caliauta), oddly enough they almost always have a small hole in their front bass drum head.

They are all brilliant drummers with great chops who can surely tune a kit, but their kits typically sounded alike. Very "vanilla" to me. When Bonzo hit, you knew who it was. It certainly wouldn't have worked in the Beatles, or for Britney Spears, but he has his own sound. I've done lots of engineering, and if I had a dollar for every drummer who wanted the kit "mic'd like Bonham" I could by a Studer. Can't say I've ever heard anybody say "I want that Porcaro/Toto sound".

I like and respect unique drummers like Bonham, Ringo, Buddy Rich. They were all fussy about their sound/tuning. I'd rather leave that legacy behind then be confused with 10 other studio cats who play the same kit, use the same tuning, and are mic'd and mixed the same way.

Of course studio drumming isn't my day gig, but I do keep up a pretty decent recording schedule, and all my kicks have reso heads. I've had several engineers voice concern about the unported head, but once they hear it, they usually quiet down quickly.

Like I said, we won't agree on this. But I'm a fussy S.O.B. when it comes to drumming/drums/tuning.

If you want to make money, play lots of sessions and make an engineers job very easy, Chrisso is right on the mark.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

Why is it right that you can poke a hole in the bass, but not in the toms? A different role? They're both drums...

The bass drum typically underpins the entire kit, if not the whole recording. Toms are added spice if you will.

Can't say I've ever heard anybody say "I want that Porcaro/Toto sound".

Wow, i've heard it a lot. It doesn't mean one is better than the other. Both Bonzo and porcaro are drumming icons. I would never discount Porcaro's influence on modern drumming though. Toto are unhip. I'm not a fan either, but Poracro's work is stellar and stretches way beyond a couple of Toto hits. Most drummers would kill for his sound.

I like and respect unique drummers like Bonham, Ringo, Buddy Rich.

The original question was about usual practice, not about drummers with a unique approach. Usual practice in the studio is to be flexible and open to different ways of getting a good sound. Your way would work. Perhaps not for every occasion.

If you want to make money, play lots of sessions and make an engineers job very easy, Chrisso is right on the mark.

You just described a studio drummer's M.O.
I mean it's more about collaborating and doing what's best for the project. Less so, making the engineers job 'easy'....and why would you choose to make it harder?

[drumzealot]

Experiment! I have numerous bass drums and keep at least 3 heads for each one; one with no hole (usually coated, calfskin type), one with an off-center hole, and one with a center hole. All my front BD heads are single ply.

Most drum nerds claim that any hole larger than or equal to 7 inches in diameter has the same sonic effect of removing the front head.

I wouldn’t want to argue with Bob Gatzen, but, I would say that a hole in the middle is not necessarily the same as removing the front head. It depends on the size of the drum and the hole. A center hole has a more pronounced per-inch effect on the sound than an off-center hole. In fact, would say that the drum-nerd rule above may be restated:
A 7 inch off-center hole sounds the same as no front head.
A 4-5 inch center hole sounds the same as no front head.

When you consider the over all sound of a drum (not the sound you get through a mic, I mean the sound you hear when you are in the room playing) and using no muffling as a reference point I have found the following:
HOLE PLACEMENT (for 16-18 inch BDs)
OFF CENTER (about two inches from where the shell meets the head): makes the drum more “dry” (more focused, less complex resonance), shortens the resonance, increases attack. Any hole larger then 3-4 inches sounds similar to no front head.
CENTER: increases attack even more, decreases overall drum resonance more. Even a small hole changes the sounds a lot, the critical diameter being about 3 inches at which point you are approaching the no-front-head sound.

HOLE PLACEMENT (for 20-22 inch BDs)
OFF CENTER: makes the drum more “dry”, shortens the resonance slightly, increases attack some. Any hole larger than 7 inches = no front head.
CENTER: increases attack even more, decreases overall drum resonance more. Any hole larger than 3-4 inches = no front head.

HOLE PLACEMENT (for 24-26 inch BDs)
I have limited recording experience with larger BDs. But for performing in a hard hitting rock trio I use a 24 inch all-birch BD and cut a 5 inch off-center hole with great results. Also, I find one-ply coated heads (front and batter) with the batter head tuned relatively high to sound best on larger drums. If tuned too low the batter head vibrates so slowly and with such great amplitude that it makes the drum hard to play…and forget about playing fast. People always think about Bonham using large BDs. He tuned his drums relatively high which helped him do the fast BD work for which he is famous.

General rock music BD tips:
I find a 20 inch drum to be ideal. When micing the kick with one mic, I like to remove the front head and place a very soft and “floppy” blanket on the batter head for a short punchy yet full sound. Use a large-diaphragm dynamic for close micing. I have had great results using a LDC about 4 feet back pointed at the center of the head. Use a tunnel to isolate (if desired).
If multiple mics are available I still muffle the batter AND FRONT heads equally. I tend to keep the front head in place with an off-center hole just big enough to get a mic inside (usually a dynamic mic) and then put either a LDC or a speaker-mic (like the Yamaha Sub-Kick) on the front head. Find the “sweet spot’ for the inside mic but make sure there is plenty of attack. In fact, sometimes I will only focus on capturing the attack with this mic. I have even used an SM58 with good results! The outside mic captures the LFs and very little mid or high-end frequencies (eliminating the need for a bass drum tunnel – if you are going for an isolation micing method). I usually find the sweet spot to be about 2-3 inches from the rim although many like it on the center, directly in line with where the pedal hits the head. You can then mix the two sounds to taste later.
Of course you can also use the speaker mic even if the front head has been removed.
On the rare occasion that I use a center hole I keep it as small as possible.

[drumzealot]

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

Can't say I've ever heard anybody say "I want that Porcaro/Toto sound".

We must live on different planets. I would argue that J. Porcaro was a much more prolific and versatile drummer than Gonzo. I am NOT saying that one was better than the other, or trying to dis Bonham. I love his playing as much as anybody. But the breadth and depth JP's discography would humble most drummers. And I don't mean to simply draw attention to the high profile nature of these projects, but the also playing. He was absolutely amazing. For example, check out the CD Brasileiro by Sergio Mendez. I spent the last 6 years digging into Brazilian styles and gigging in Brazilian bands as my main source of income. In my opinion, JP had a nearly authentic Brazilian "accent" in his playing. He is the least gringo-sounding gringo I have ever heard when it comes to MPB. He could nail many different styles.

If I had to choose between a career that was more like Bonham or more like Porcaro I would chose the latter for sure. More interesting, more diverse, less of the married-to-a-successful-rock-band bullsh*t. I would imagine that any tenure longer than 4-6 years with a single rock line-up would get painfully boring (musically) compared to the rich diversity of being (primarily) independent. As brilliant as Bonham was, he was a bit of a one-trick-pony compared to Porcaro.

[ToneBender67]

Originally Posted by drumzealot

We must live on different planets. I would argue that J. Porcaro was a much more prolific and versatile drummer than Gonzo. I am NOT saying that one was better than the other, or trying to dis Bonham. I love his playing as much as anybody. But the breadth and depth JP's discography would humble most drummers. And I don't mean to simply draw attention to the high profile nature of these projects, but the also playing. He was absolutely amazing. For example, check out the CD Brasileiro by Sergio Mendez. I spent the last 6 years digging into Brazilian styles and gigging in Brazilian bands as my main source of income. In my opinion, JP had a nearly authentic Brazilian "accent" in his playing. He is the least gringo-sounding gringo I have ever heard when it comes to MPB. He could nail many different styles.

If I had to choose between a career that was more like Bonham or more like Porcaro I would chose the latter for sure. More interesting, more diverse, less of the married-to-a-successful-rock-band bullsh*t. I would imagine that any tenure longer than 4-6 years with a single rock line-up would get painfully boring (musically) compared to the rich diversity of being (primarily) independent. As brilliant as Bonham was, he was a bit of a one-trick-pony compared to Porcaro.

Whatever planet you are on, in all my years of engineering, I've never heard that. That's not to say I haven't recorded drummers that weren't influenced in some way by Porcaro.

You make very excellent points but truthfully, Porcaro does nothing for me. He's a slick studio drummer who came up with great parts for the song. So did Hal Blaine. I'd much rather have Blaine's career though. Porcaro was definitely not a one trick pony, but neither was Bonzo. I think it's great the Porcaro could nail Brazilian rhythms, but really that's just replicating something that's already established (albeit very well). Bonham, did dabble into Latin rhythms (also swing, rock, rockabilly, funk, big band, soul, folk as did Porcaro I'm sure) but put his twist on it. You could argue that he didn't want to be bothered mastering those styles (or maybe he didn't have the chops), but taking elements of those styles and molding it into something unique shows more creativity then being able to mimic something accurately/traditionally. Porcaro will most be remembered for the Purdy shuffle in Toto's 'Rosannna' (like it or not). Bonham never mastered that shuffle. Instead, he slices, dices, makes it swing and serves it right back to Porcaro on a hot plate with 'Fool In The Rain'. Being able to do that goes a lot further in my book.

We'll never see eye to eye on this, so all I can say is RIP Bonzo and Porcaro!

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

We'll never see eye to eye on this, so all I can say is RIP Bonzo and Porcaro!

Yeah.
They were both good.
And both had a damn fine sound and groove.

[drumzealot]

Hey, I enjoy this kind of dialogue. Being able to articulate ideas about art is a great exercise and helps me expand my point-of-view.

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

Whatever planet you are on, in all my years of engineering, I've never heard that. That's not to say I haven't recorded drummers that weren't influenced in some way by Porcaro.

You make very excellent points but truthfully, Porcaro does nothing for me. He's a slick studio drummer who came up with great parts for the song. So did Hal Blaine. I'd much rather have Blaine's career though. Porcaro was definitely not a one trick pony, but neither was Bonzo.

The key work here is “relative” If you placed there life’s work next to each other Bonham is far less diverse in comparison. My guess is that being in Led Zep did not afford much time to expand JB’s artistic horizons. You can actually do this at allmusic.com

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

I think it's great the Porcaro could nail Brazilian rhythms, but really that's just replicating something that's already established (albeit very well). Bonham, did dabble into Latin rhythms (also swing, rock, rockabilly, funk, big band, soul, folk as did Porcaro I'm sure) but put his twist on it. You could argue that he didn't want to be bothered mastering those styles (or maybe he didn't have the chops), but taking elements of those styles and molding it into something unique shows more creativity then being able to mimic something accurately/traditionally.

We'll never see eye to eye on this, so all I can say is RIP Bonzo and Porcaro!

Hal Blaine is also one of my heroes! What a great musician.

You make some excellent points yourself! And we do see eye –to-eye when it comes to Fool vs. Rosanna. However, I suspect if we could get Bonzo in one room and Porcaro in an adjacent room and asked them to play that shuffle most aficionados would agree that both had tons of chutzpah. I think much of the blandness you hear comes from Toto as a group (icons of that bland LA late 70s and ALL of the 80s radio pop sound) and they way it was produced. As much as I respect JP, I don’t find myself reaching for that Toto CD…ever!

Very few artists invent a new style and all styles of playing have roots in something else. In that sense, 99.9% of artists start by mimicking. The mark of a great artist may be found in the sincere expression his his/her individuality within a style. For use listeners, it’s difficult to catch each player’s personality, their subtlety and the importance of their contribution unless we are knowledgeable in that style ourselves. Claude Monet’s painting may seem "pretty" or bland to some now, but in his day he was banned from many galleries and was thought of as an out of control radical.

Replication is not at the forefront of my mind when I listen to JP. Some of the music he played is boring and bland, but he did far more than mimic. Like any great artist, he became fluent in multiple styles and was able to express his own voice in the context of a given style in order to make an appropriate contribution according to the song/context. This type of work calls for more subtlety. Not that Bonham wasn’t subtle, but he was given to over statement whereas JP was more prone to understatement. I wonder how Bonham would have been as an independent. From what I had read, his personality would have presented a challenge!

Of course we are talking about music where opinions are somewhat subjective. But I have found that distaste for an artist’s work can be chalked up to a lack of historical/cultural background knowledge. I hope that does not sound condescending or like a boring popular point of view, but my experience confirms that there is some truth to that.
For example, I used to be bored by Steve Smith. I only knew him from Journey (a band I neither love nor hate) and few fusak sessions he had done (which I hate). Then I saw Smith do a clinic and got to chat with him after and my opinion changed dramatically. This guy was deep! And he was well versed in styles that I had just started to learn. I had no idea how dynamic and creative he is. Actually, in the clinic he played two Max Roach solo compositions that were basically unaccompanied jazz tunes (head, solo, head). Even though he was “mimicking” Max Roach, I had spent hours listening to Roach’s original recordings and from that familiarity was able to clearly hear Smith’s individuality.

P.S. for hilarious vids poking fun at smooth rock check out ******//www.channel101.com/shows/cancelled.php and scroll down to the “Yacht Rock” series. I think you will like this.