Users with Ludwig Zep Kit, what cymbals are you using?

[YOTR]

Well I had decided on the Paiste 2002's but didn't particularly like the sound of them. I then got a killer deal on a set of Paiste Alpha's last night at GC and thought I was set. Well I am not so sure about those now either. I can return them to GC so I am thinking about it. I am really having a tough time getting cymbals that I truly like especially with this set. I am really thinking about going back to the Zildjian A Custom's because I like the sound quite a bit. I used to play A Customs on my old Pearl kit and they were definitely worth the money. What is everyone else playing on this kit? Should I give the 2002's another listen? Thanks in advance!

[GravityRobert]

Hit everything in your music store and make up your own mind.

For 'that' classic Bonham sound I would go with a combination of 2002's and Giant Beats but I couldnt make up if that's the sound your going for.

[digibird]

I can't imagine not liking the sound of Paiste 2002s. They are the cymbals to use with that kit, especially if you are going for Bonham's sound - 2002s are what he used. Are you listening to the big 2002s? You need a 24" ride, 19" and 20" crashes, 15" hats, cymbals sized larger like that.

I f you don't like them, you don't like them. Make yourself happy. The only thing I would buy besides Paiste is Zildjian. Plain, basic Zildjian, no specialty series newer ones. Just basic, expensive, top-of-the-line Zildjian, like the ones from the 1960's and '70's. No thin crashes, either. You need big, explosive cymbals with that kit.

Don't buy cheap cymbals and have to buy the good ones later. Buy once and get the best the first time. Do it slowly, 1 by 1, if money's tight.

[YOTR]

Originally Posted by digibird

I can't imagine not liking the sound of Paiste 2002s. They are the cymbals to use with that kit, especially if you are going for Bonham's sound - 2002s are what he used. Are you listening to the big 2002s? You need a 24" ride, 19" and 20" crashes, 15" hats, cymbals sized larger like that.

I f you don't like them, you don't like them. Make yourself happy. The only thing I would buy besides Paiste is Zildjian. Plain, basic Zildjian, no specialty series newer ones. Just basic, expensive, top-of-the-line Zildjian, like the ones from the 1960's and '70's. No thin crashes, either. You need big, explosive cymbals with that kit.

Don't buy cheap cymbals and have to buy the good ones later. Buy once and get the best the first time. Do it slowly, 1 by 1, if money's tight.

Well to be honest I only listed to a 16" 2002 crash and a 20" ride. I definitely didn't write them off at all. They just didn't impress me much. In my mind though they are still the top cymbals I want along with a few Zildjians. I am going to return the other ones tonight and I guess start searching on ebay. I also called GC last night and the guy there said they could setup a similar setup to Bonham on their demo zep kit with the 2002's..........that will probably help my decision.



Also, what Zildjian's would you recommend if I go that route? A customs? Just curious as it would help if I decide to go that route. I am honestly going to give the 2002's a hard look though since I obviously didn't before.

[YOTR]

Originally Posted by GravityRobert

Hit everything in your music store and make up your own mind.

For 'that' classic Bonham sound I would go with a combination of 2002's and Giant Beats but I couldnt make up if that's the sound your going for.

I actually love the sound of Giant Beats...........very impressive cymbal line.

[bloodsuga]

I use all Zildjians with my zep kit. 14 inch new beat hats, 21 sweet ride, 19 medium thin crash and a 20 medium thin crash. The Paiste's are what Bonham used and they sound great, but i don't think it is absolutely necessary. I don't feel like you have to have big cymbals either, i'd play with whatever fits ur sound. Jon theadore from the Mars Volta at one time played a maple ludwig ( same as the zep sizes) then switched to the steel ludwig and the vistalites ( all with same sizes as bonham). He actually used considerably smaller cymbals, 13 inch high hats and a 21 inch ride and a cymbal that was composed of a bunch of broken cymbals and rivets. His sound was amazing and unique because you had thundering drums and a hint of sharp high end with the cymbals, no washyness at all. One of the cool things i've found about this kit is that I can get so many different sounds from it, i've ended up tuning them and using cymbals that make my sound far different from Bonham.

[daryllh]

Are you talking about the Zep kit Ludwig is advertising?

The one that is being sold with a 13" tom instead of a 14" tom? (He only used a 13X9 tom for the first album. Also, the bass drum is 2 inches deeper than what he used.

Anyway,

My room mate has a 20" 2002 ride that sounds really good. His 18" 2002 (black ink) crash doesn't sound as good as I would have thought.

I like the hats, always have.

[chetatkinsdiet]

Yeah, the 2002 line are some pretty thick cymbals. Great for loud, live playing, but not the best in the studio. That's just my opinion, but I prefer to record with faster cymbals that do their thing and get out of the way quickly. I don't play with this particular kit, but I do play with a vintage luddy kit with 24 kick, 14 rack tom and the 16 and 18 floor tom. I like to record with my Istanbul cymbals. I use em big, but thin for studio work. 18-19" crashes and 22" ride. I'm all over the board on hats as I've got a lot to choose from. I might use 13" k's or old Paiste 602's in a 14". I might use 2002 Sound Edges in a 14 or 15", regular A's in anything from 12" to 15". My current favs are the winner for the worst name EVER. They're the Funky Rock hats from istanbul. To me, they're a cross between the Zildjian a and k line.

later,

m

[C/G]

Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet

Yeah, the 2002 line are some pretty thick cymbals. Great for loud, live playing, but not the best in the studio. That's just my opinion, but I prefer to record with faster cymbals that do their thing and get out of the way quickly.

I use em big, but thin for studio work. 18-19" crashes and 22" ride. I'm all over the board on hats as I've got a lot to choose from.
m

What he said. I really like the 2002 15" hats and 24" ride live. They are awesome. For recording I like darker hand hammered type stuff. Zildjian Constantinople and I like using K 14" master sound hats.

I would love to try the Giant Beats but no music store near me even stocks Paiste.

I'm not using a Zep kit but Classic Maples for live. 24" kick (always), 12" rack tom and 16" floor tom. I've been thinking of adding a 14" floor tom as well.

[84K]

I usually try to work with whatever the drummer likes. Thin to win is my saying. New Beats Hi-Hat, and thin crashes. Can't remember the ride and I am not there right now. I LOVE the Woohan china cymbals.

[YOTR]

Originally Posted by daryllh

Are you talking about the Zep kit Ludwig is advertising?

The one that is being sold with a 13" tom instead of a 14" tom? (He only used a 13X9 tom for the first album. Also, the bass drum is 2 inches deeper than what he used.

Anyway,

My room mate has a 20" 2002 ride that sounds really good. His 18" 2002 (black ink) crash doesn't sound as good as I would have thought.

I like the hats, always have.

It's the zep shell kit that most GC's have been clearing out. There is a big thread on it in the forum.

[YOTR]

Well I returned the cymbals today and tried a few other ones. They let me pretty much setup any that I wanted on the demo zep kit they had. I admit I am warming up to the 2002's. They are REALLY loud but not in a bad way. I really liked the Giant Beats cymbals a lot though. Of course they are hard to find so I only got to play on a 20" ride and a couple of crashes. I also played on a complete zildjian a custom setup. I was very impressed with the sound and it honestly added a whole new sound to the Bonham setup. So I guess it will utimately come down to the 2002's/Giants Beats and a basic A custom setup.......regardless I am glad I returned the other cymbals. Now I just have to be patient and truly decide which way I am going to go.

[toolskid]

The new paistes are DEFINITELY not the same as the 70s ones bonham would have used - similar but definitely different...

[C/G]

Originally Posted by YOTR

Well I returned the cymbals today and tried a few other ones. They let me pretty much setup any that I wanted on the demo zep kit they had. I admit I am warming up to the 2002's. They are REALLY loud but not in a bad way. I really liked the Giant Beats cymbals a lot though. Of course they are hard to find so I only got to play on a 20" ride and a couple of crashes. I also played on a complete zildjian a custom setup. I was very impressed with the sound and it honestly added a whole new sound to the Bonham setup. So I guess it will utimately come down to the 2002's/Giants Beats and a basic A custom setup.......regardless I am glad I returned the other cymbals. Now I just have to be patient and truly decide which way I am going to go.

I'd love to try the Giant Beats. I thought at first they were thicker than the 2002 series but I was wrong.

How big were the Giant Beat crashes you tried? I'm looking for a 19" or 20" crash and if they are melower than the 2002 I would definitely be into hearing your reports, although the sound samples I heard of the 2002 med/thin 19" crash sounded good, but that was on the Paiste web site.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by toolskid

The new paistes are DEFINITELY not the same as the 70s ones bonham would have used - similar but definitely different...

In which case I'd be looking out for old ones on Ebay.

In fact I'd be buying used cymbals anyway.
There are tons of auctions on Ebay, old Paiste, old Zildjian, slightly used Sabians.
A lot sound better than the latest crop of new cymbals......and they are all better value.
Seems to me, the problem here is an uncertainty about which cymbals to buy.
No one on a forum can take the place of you playing lots of cymbals and buying the ones that sound best to you.
I'm not a fan of replicating a well known drummers' set up FWIW.

[bloodsuga]

Originally Posted by 84K

I usually try to work with whatever the drummer likes. Thin to win is my saying. New Beats Hi-Hat, and thin crashes. Can't remember the ride and I am not there right now. I LOVE the Woohan china cymbals.

Can't go wrong with the New Beats!!!

[YOTR]

Originally Posted by C/G

I'd love to try the Giant Beats. I thought at first they were thicker than the 2002 series but I was wrong.

How big were the Giant Beat crashes you tried? I'm looking for a 19" or 20" crash and if they are melower than the 2002 I would definitely be into hearing your reports, although the sound samples I heard of the 2002 med/thin 19" crash sounded good, but that was on the Paiste web site.

Actually I realized after going back to GC that I had played on the GB setup I wanted.....lol. I was playing on the 24" ride and the 18" and 20" crash. I REALLY like the sound these cymbals give. It is going to come down to the GB's and 2002's for me. Right now the GB's have a good edge. That 24" ride is insane! It sizzle's like crazy .

[ToneBender67]

Originally Posted by YOTR

Well I had decided on the Paiste 2002's but didn't particularly like the sound of them. I then got a killer deal on a set of Paiste Alpha's last night at GC and thought I was set. Well I am not so sure about those now either. I can return them to GC so I am thinking about it. I am really having a tough time getting cymbals that I truly like especially with this set. I am really thinking about going back to the Zildjian A Custom's because I like the sound quite a bit. I used to play A Customs on my old Pearl kit and they were definitely worth the money. What is everyone else playing on this kit? Should I give the 2002's another listen? Thanks in advance!

Here's the skinny, from probably the biggest Bonham-phile on this board (and a proud owner of one of John's original Giant Beats....)

You CAN achieve a 2002 set up almost identical to Bonham's with new red label 2002's. Paiste beefed up the line in the 80's, but are made exactly the same way as Bonzo's. Due to the "beef up" a red label CRASH will weigh (and sound) almost exactly the same as a black label MEDIUM.

For your crashes: Bonham typically used 18" and 20" MEDIUM crashes, 18" and 20" red label CRASHES will get you the sound. *Bonham also used 18" 2002 RIDES as crashes later on, but mainly live. A red label 2002 18" MEDIUM will get you very close to his black label 18" RIDE.

For your ride (this one isn't so easy): Red label 24" 2002 RIDES are very heavy. The first one I ever owned was insanely pingy and actually weighed over 10 lbs! The black label 24" 2002 RIDE I have now is from '75 and weighs 7.4lbs. Anybody who knows Zep and has heard it comments that it sounds eerily like Bonzo's, circa Prezence. Before I found my '75, I tracked down a 24" red label MEDIUM. They were only offered for a few years in the late 90's, but it was quite a bit lighter then the ping-tacular red label RIDE and was definitely more Bonham-ish. A great option would be to find a 70's 22" black label 2002 RIDE. Not exactly the standard Bonham size (although he did occasionally use 22" RIDES, both 602 and 2002's) it will sound much closer then any modern 24' red label RIDE. My friend Mark Romans used his 22' 2002 black label RIDE while recording a snippet of "Moby Dick" for Jeff Ocheltree's (Bonham's drum roadie/tech in the late 70's) video "Trust Your Ears." It sounded spectacular.

For the hats: Try to find a 70's 2002 SOUND EDGE bottom. The older hats had more ridges (36 I believe) and generally sounded a little less clangy. They are also a little bit lighter. A red label 2002 15" CRASH works great as a top (it'll be lighter then a stock red label 2002 hat top) and sounds killer paired with an older SE bottom.

Before I tracked down all black label 2002's, the setup I just described worked awesome for getting Bonham's mid to late 70's cymbal sound (I was drumming in a Zep tribute). I was lucky enough to have a friend with extensive Paiste collection to compare my red labels with. I have no doubt that if you follow this setup to a tee, you'll have the "Song Remains The Same" live sound.

I really wouldn't go back to Zildjians if you're going for a Bonham vibe. I've found with B8 cymbals (Giant Beats as well as 2002's) they can sound harsh up close. Have somebody you trust sit at your set and play your 2002's. Step back 10 feet. You'll hear how musical (and Bonham-ish) they are.

New Giant Beats are beautiful cymbals, but they don't sound much like the old ones. I have a few sets of new Giant Beats (and a few prototypes) and about 15 vintage ones. They don't have anywhere near the same similarities as old 2002's versus new. It'll be much easier to nail Bonzo's 2002 sound with new cymbals.

Daryllh brings up a good point about the rack tom size, but his first 26 Ludwig bass drum (the natural maple set) was infact 16x26. This has been confirmed by the current owner of the set, Paul Thompson (of Roxy Music).

[84K]

cool post!! Cheers from another Bohnam-phile.

[dontfearthringo]

There's something I think was missed in this discussion... now, I admit that I sort of skimmed because it's late and I am a little tired...

but if you want cymbals to sound like John Bonham's, it's not only important that you get the right cymbals, but that you hang them high and flat so that they're parallel to the floor...

annnnnnd then... Knock the ever lovin' PI$S out of them when you hit them. This is the most crucial aspect. You have to hit the cymbals hard enough to excite the metal so that it resonates at FULL energy.

Play from the small of your back, not the wrist.

For historical accuracy, it's worth mentioning that Bonham originally played Giant Beat cymbals, then switched to the 2002 cymbals. 2002 is an alloy, and unless I am mistaken, it's correct to say that today's 2002s are "not the same" ONLY if you mean the lathing thicknesses, because the alloy is unchanged as far as I am aware. B8 is an 8% tin alloy of bronze and tin, and B8 has been the formula for 2002s since the beginning.

Now, cymbals are lathed at different bell, shoulder and edge thicknesses, and that might have changed, but AS FAR AS I KNOW, 2002 is the B8 alloy and that's that.

[C/G]

Originally Posted by YOTR

Actually I realized after going back to GC that I had played on the GB setup I wanted.....lol. I was playing on the 24" ride and the 18" and 20" crash. I REALLY like the sound these cymbals give. It is going to come down to the GB's and 2002's for me. Right now the GB's have a good edge. That 24" ride is insane! It sizzle's like crazy .

I have the 24" 2002 ride. That and my 24" kick has resulted in my band mates calling me "Two Foot" now.

I really need to hear the GB's. Possibly the 18" or the 20" as right now I have an ancient 22" Zildjian crash which I could not live without. Also an 18" Zildjian Constantinople which is pretty nice and a K Dark Crash.

I've thought about a 19" 2002 med/light crash as well. I really wish my local shop carried Paiste.

[C/G]

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

.

New Giant Beats are beautiful cymbals, but they don't sound much like the old ones. I have a few sets of new Giant Beats (and a few prototypes) and about 15 vintage ones. They don't have anywhere near the same similarities as old 2002's versus new. It'll be much easier to nail Bonzo's 2002 sound with new cymbals.

Nice post describing the differences.

So, how do the new Giant Beats compare to the 2002 series?

Are they thinner than the 2002 with a more dark or vintage vibe?

[ToneBender67]

Originally Posted by C/G

Nice post describing the differences.

So, how do the new Giant Beats compare to the 2002 series?

Are they thinner than the 2002 with a more dark or vintage vibe?

Colin-

The reissue Giant Beats are similar to the 2002's in that the profile and bell shape are identical. They are thinner and darker sounding then 2002's, and do have a cool retro vibe. If you want something washy, even slightly trashy, the reissue Giant Beats are the way to go. Jazz drummers, who usually shy away from B8 alloy cymbals, are flipping over the new Giant Beats, especially the 24" ride.

2002's are the classic 70's rock cymbal, and have not changed since their introduction (besides becoming heavier and changing from black to red ink stamps). As I said in my previous post, if you want to get within 95% of Bonham's cymbal setup, it can be done with select red label 2002's. The reissue Giant Beats, although great cymbals, won't get you there.

The original Giant Beats had a different lathing (602-like), bell shape and profile then the reissues, and therefore, sound a lot different. Paiste actually got close to the original Giant Beats with a budget line cymbal: The 502Plus. They were made of B8 and had a very Giant Beat-ish bell shape and profile. Unfortunately, they didn't have the refined hammering and lathing. Regardless, when I want to get close to the true Giant Beat sound, I pull out the 502PLUS 18" CRASH-RIDE and 20" RIDE (used as a crash) over my reissue Giant Beats. The 18" 502PLUS CRASH is nice too, but I like the 18" CRASH-RIDE better. If you want Giant Beat-ish crashes without breaking the bank, troll Ebay for used 502PLUS crashes.

Originally Posted by dontfearthringo

For historical accuracy, it's worth mentioning that Bonham originally played Giant Beat cymbals, then switched to the 2002 cymbals.

Actually Bonham started with Paiste 602's (B20 alloy) and continued to use 602 hats (both SOUND EDGE and MEDIUMS) and a 20" MEDIUM RIDE (as a crash) in conjunction with the 18", 20", and 24" Giant Beats. When Bonham had 2 crashes on his right while playing the Green Sparkle set, one was usually a 20" 602 MEDIUM RIDE. Judging by pictures, he definitely preferred 602 hats over Giant Beats (and I don't blame him, I've had several sets of original GB hats and all were duds). What's interesting about the 20" MEDIUM RIDE is one showed up years later on the Stainless Steel kit (again used as a crash).

Originally Posted by dontfearthringo

annnnnnd then... Knock the ever lovin' PI$S out of them when you hit them. This is the most crucial aspect. You have to hit the cymbals hard enough to excite the metal so that it resonates at FULL energy. Play from the small of your back, not the wrist.

If that's your personal advice, it's fine, but I don't agree with it, nor does it really apply to Bonham. B8 alloy cymbals crack a lot easier then B20, so I wouldn't hit any harder then you have to (especially with the very thin reissue Giant Beats). Bonham occasionally bashed (although he matured quickly and realized he didn't have to) but typically played with his wrists and had great technique in regard to hitting cymbals, and everything else around him.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

Bonham occasionally bashed (although he matured quickly and realized he didn't have to) but typically played with his wrists and had great technique in regard to hitting cymbals, and everything else around him.

Amen.
I'm not a Bonham expert, but I've watched a few vids and talked to a few people who knew him. He played the drums to get an amazingly big sound, appropriate to the music.
I've never seen him thrash the drums, certainly not like contemporary thrashers.

[C/G]

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

Colin-

The reissue Giant Beats are similar to the 2002's in that the profile and bell shape are identical. They are thinner and darker sounding then 2002's, and do have a cool retro vibe. If you want something washy, even slightly trashy, the reissue Giant Beats are the way to go. Jazz drummers, who usually shy away from B8 alloy cymbals, are flipping over the new Giant Beats, especially the 24" ride.

2002's are the classic 70's rock cymbal, and have not changed since their introduction (besides becoming heavier and changing from black to red ink stamps). As I said in my previous post, if you want to get within 95% of Bonham's cymbal setup, it can be done with select red label 2002's. The reissue Giant Beats, although great cymbals, won't get you there.

The original Giant Beats had a different lathing (602-like), bell shape and profile then the reissues, and therefore, sound a lot different. Paiste actually got close to the original Giant Beats with a budget line cymbal: The 502Plus. They were made of B8 and had a very Giant Beat-ish bell shape and profile. Unfortunately, they didn't have the refined hammering and lathing. Regardless, when I want to get close to the true Giant Beat sound, I pull out the 502PLUS 18" CRASH-RIDE and 20" RIDE (used as a crash) over my reissue Giant Beats. The 18" 502PLUS CRASH is nice too, but I like the 18" CRASH-RIDE better. If you want Giant Beat-ish crashes without breaking the bank, troll Ebay for used 502PLUS crashes.

Thanks. I like vintage or dark cymbals so I might try a GB crash. I wish they had a 19" but I might try the 18".

I love my 24" 2002 ride and I heard the sound files of the crashes on the Paiste site and the GB, 24" ride was a bit too washy for me.

The thinner 2002 crashes look appealing as well.

I don't mind washy crashes and tend to shy away from modern, overly bright sounding crashes, so maybe the GB series might be right for me. It sure would be nice to try before I buy, but not in my neck of the woods.

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by ToneBender67

Before I tracked down all black label 2002's, the setup I just described worked awesome for getting Bonham's mid to late 70's cymbal sound (I was drumming in a Zep tribute).

So would Black Label 2002 SE Hi-Hats get you the right Bonham sound?

Thanks for the informative post by the way.

[ToneBender67]

Originally Posted by chrisso

So would Black Label 2002 SE Hi-Hats get you the right Bonham sound?

Thanks for the informative post by the way.

Chrisso

Yes, black label 2002's are they way to go, as they aren't as heavy. Red label 2002's are just too clangy. I have three pair of 70's SE's, all sound pretty identical to each other and in my opinion, to Bonzo's. I try to compare my cymbals to his based on live recordings and bootlegs as they aren't as processed/EQ'd as the Zep albums.

If you can't find a set of black label SE hats, try a red label 15" 2002 CRASH as a top hat paired with a black label SE bottom (orphans pop up on Ebay regularly). It's a great alternative and should save you some money.

I hope this helps!

[chrisso]

Yes.
Thanks very much.

[drumzealot]

Sometimes cymbals sound great from behind the set but not from out front and vic versa. I recorded a local band and set-up where a sound man would normally sit. From that point the drummer’s main crash sounded really nice. After the set I took a closer look and it was an old 18 inch super-heavy student model no-name and sounded horrible to my ears up close.
Before last year I was never fond of the 2002 sound. Then I did a session (playing drums) and used the band leader’s 18 medium 2002 crash. I didn’t want to but the guy who hired me insisted so I went with it and fell in love after the first playback.
Now I own an identical crash, a thinner and older 20 inch crash, a black letter 20 inch ride and a newer 24 inch ride (which I also used for the rest of that session). Compared to the Zildjian Custom A’s I still think they sound inferior from behind the kit. But for recording hard rock or performing pop music (especially on an outdoor stage) they are tops. I’ll even use the 20 inch crash in small jazz clubs from time to time. It is the darkest 2002 I ever heard.
Just last week I did a session (engineering) that called for recording the drums to tape at a slower speed and then speeding the tape back-up to record everything else. At the faster tape speed that 24 inch ride gave out a loud 210hz tone. After scooping it out it sounded just great. There must be some weird subsonic overtones going on at normal speeds. I have never had that problem with any other cymbal (without rivets).
For the last year my three favorite crashes are the 18 medium 2002, 17 and 14 Custom A’s. They sound great alone or all together and compliment each other rather well. If I had to choose between the three I would take the 17 inch Custom A for its versatility.
Come to think of it. That same 18 medium 2002 was used as a suspended cymbal for an orchestral recording I worked on.

[ToneBender67]

drumzelot makes a good point about certain cymbals not sounding great up close/behind the kit. I find this very common with B8 alloy cymbals (like the 2002's). They can sound harsh. Standing a foot or so in front of the kit (or on tape), you'll find them to be very musical.