So.. vca grouping... is it in ver7? Or not?
thenoodle
Thread Starter
#1
15th November 2012
Old 15th November 2012
  #1
Lives for food
 

Thread Starter
So.. vca grouping... is it in ver7? Or not?

So are vca group controls in there somewhere? Can't tell from the conversations so far.

By the way.. as to griping about the mixer gui, as I understand things, you can tailor that to look any way you want. "Ugly" is just the default setting. Correct me if I'm wrong.
#2
15th November 2012
Old 15th November 2012
  #2
Gear interested
 

Hello,

Ugly or not: It is about the result.

Regarding VCA. Steinberg has practibel the same. You can watch a new video regarding Cubase 7 on Cubase Tutorial Recording Software Synthesizer VST AU regarding this. Yes it is in German. Hopefully an English one will follow soon.

Cheers,

Chris
#3
15th November 2012
Old 15th November 2012
  #3
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Can you translate? Well, i mean if you speak german, obviously !! Or point us to the bit in the video where we might get a clue?

ta
#4
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #4
#5
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #5
Lives for gear
 

So far from watching a few of the videos that surfaced on the web, it appears that Steinberg have implemented a better grouping system than C7.

It seems like you can create a group and choose to link various parameters for that group.

Importantly and a vast improvement on C6, linked channels do not need to be sequencial in the mixer (next to each other) which does allow you to create "faux" group VCA's and by dedicating a channel within a linked group with nothing on it and bunching these "faux" VCA's down one end of the mixer if you like - not quite a elegant as PT - but I could make this work well for me.

What I still can't work out is if you can name these linked groups, at the moment they appear simply to have a number, but I imagine they must be namable?

There other glaring omission once again appears to be, there is no linked automation editing between channels - again I might be wrong, but on watching the videos it didn't seem to be implemented in any of the varios pop up lists I saw.

Overall, I think the new system looks fantastic, and the potential of the new mixer in C7 looks to be very exciting.

Can't wait to try it out.
Quote
1
#6
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
Importantly and a vast improvement on C6, linked channels do not need to be sequencial in the mixer (next to each other) which does allow you to create "faux" group VCA's and by dedicating a channel within a linked group with nothing on it and bunching these "faux" VCA's down one end of the mixer if you like - not quite a elegant as PT - but I could make this work well for me.
.
As I mentioned on the other thread - that doesn't do what a VCA does. The VCA fader keeps the automation in all your other channels and turns them down. YOu still get to keep your fader rides. VCAs do not have to be part of an active group - the group can be a VCA group only and have no other function leaving the faders unconnected. As I also mentioned - Nuendo HAS to have this as its an extremely important facility for movie/media mixing.
#7
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #7
Lives for gear
 

I do understand what your saying narcoman, and proper VCA's will in effect trim your automation of the connected channels and the channels they effect don't have to be linked but I think at the moment in Cubase (at any rate) this is as close as we're going to get towards this level of functionality.

Do you use Nuendo or PT?

When I've mixed on my friends PT HD rig, I seem to remember VCA's working exactly as you suggest, but the few times I've mixed in Nuendo 5 the linking was no better than Cubase 6.

How can people mix large scale film stuff in Nuendo without proper VCA's ?
#8
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #8
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PT and Nuendo here - although I use PT there are two rooms with Nuendo. Nuendo needs VCA. The proper way !!haha
#9
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #9
Gear maniac
 
Home Studio 87's Avatar
 

VCA gonna came in next update at least for Nuendo !
#10
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #10
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Home Studio 87 View Post
VCA gonna came in next update at least for Nuendo !
Lets hope so!! Terrible omission not putting in the landmark release.
#11
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #11
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#12
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #12
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#13
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #13
Gear nut
 

It's official: (From the Nuendo forum)

"VCA's are planned, but aren't in the initial release.


Fredo"
#14
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #14
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvfur View Post
It's official: (From the Nuendo forum)

"VCA's are planned, but aren't in the initial release.


Fredo"
sounds a lot like

"FUCCCCKKKK we forgot to put VCAs in - you know, the single most requested feature from the pro community for about three years".....hahaha
thenoodle
Thread Starter
#15
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #15
Lives for food
 

Thread Starter
Well, if Fredo says it's coming, but not in the initial release, that would put it in Nuendo probably around June 2013 at the earliest.

Wonder if that timetable applies to C7 too.

TIme to start the "Cubase 8- what do you want" thread.
#16
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #16
Gear nut
 

I'll start:
In Cubase 8 I want even more chord generators and autoarrangers and makemusicbypressingonlyonebutton stuff so that I don't need any of my hard-earned musical and compositional training!
....What stupid and unprofessional priorities Steinberg.
Quote
1
#17
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
As I mentioned on the other thread - that doesn't do what a VCA does. The VCA fader keeps the automation in all your other channels and turns them down. YOu still get to keep your fader rides. VCAs do not have to be part of an active group - the group can be a VCA group only and have no other function leaving the faders unconnected. As I also mentioned - Nuendo HAS to have this as its an extremely important facility for movie/media mixing.
Just for the sake of clarity if you don't mind:

Is your primary objection with this new Cubendo feature that you wouldn't be able to change the levels (for example) between the channels in the VCA group without defeating the group, whereas with a proper VCA it doesn't matter if the channels are grouped as long as the VCA controls them?

As far as workarounds go it isn't ideal, but at least you could then put the defeat function on a key and just toggle it when needed.

Or are there other implications do you think...?
#18
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #18
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T_R_S's Avatar
Using VCA spill on the Icon is perhaps one the top 5 most important features of using a good control surface with tight DAW integration.
I could never mix without it now.
#19
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Just for the sake of clarity if you don't mind:

Is your primary objection with this new Cubendo feature that you wouldn't be able to change the levels (for example) between the channels in the VCA group without defeating the group, whereas with a proper VCA it doesn't matter if the channels are grouped as long as the VCA controls them?

As far as workarounds go it isn't ideal, but at least you could then put the defeat function on a key and just toggle it when needed.

Or are there other implications do you think...?
No. My issue is that a VCA allows global group level change even with automation. You can also automate the VCA and coalesce the VCA information when necessary. Nuendo hasn't implemented a VCA feature at all. This is just channel grouping which has nothing to do with VCA other than attaching one to a set of faders.

With VCA you can have all of your dialogue levels set and automated and then grab a VCA attachment and change the overall dialogue level against FX etc - even automating that VCA.
#20
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
No. My issue is that a VCA allows global group level change even with automation. You can also automate the VCA and coalesce the VCA information when necessary. Nuendo hasn't implemented a VCA feature at all. This is just channel grouping which has nothing to do with VCA other than attaching one to a set of faders.

With VCA you can have all of your dialogue levels set and automated and then grab a VCA attachment and change the overall dialogue level against FX etc - even automating that VCA.
Sigh... "duh!" (at myself)...

I guess I was thinking strictly in terms of having for example a group fader labeled VCA-whatever that would control whatever when actually running automation passes. If I read your point above correctly you're saying that you could manipulate a real VCA while stopped and it'd simply read back that change real time when rolling, right? Yes, quite the difference of course. I didn't think of that.

Pardon my shoddy terminology, I don't normally use VCA's actually.
#21
16th November 2012
Old 16th November 2012
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
Using VCA spill on the Icon is perhaps one the top 5 most important features of using a good control surface with tight DAW integration.
I could never mix without it now.
Oh you just had to go and rub our noses in it, didn't you.

#22
17th November 2012
Old 17th November 2012
  #22
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narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Sigh... "duh!" (at myself)...

I guess I was thinking strictly in terms of having for example a group fader labeled VCA-whatever that would control whatever when actually running automation passes. If I read your point above correctly you're saying that you could manipulate a real VCA while stopped and it'd simply read back that change real time when rolling, right? Yes, quite the difference of course. I didn't think of that.

Pardon my shoddy terminology, I don't normally use VCA's actually.
ha! Yeah - they're a very simple thing but once you use them you get really dependant.
LX3
#23
18th November 2012
Old 18th November 2012
  #23
LX3
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You probably knew this, but the workaround for the lack of VCAs in Nuendo is to create a group and route all those channels to that group. Then you can automate the group fader and the channel faders individually.

The downside is that any send effects that you use for those channels must also be sent to that group, and of course those effects can't really be used by any channels outside that group. But with a the kind of systems we have now, that's not typically a problem. The analog days of only having two or three reverbs for your entire mix are gone.

The upside is that it puts you in a position to quickly apply processing to the group as a whole - e.g. "bus compression".

It would be good to have properly implemented VCAs (I agree, "grouping" faders is not a substitute), but it's not a deal-breaker for me.
#24
18th November 2012
Old 18th November 2012
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LX3 View Post
You probably knew this, but the workaround for the lack of VCAs in Nuendo is to create a group and route all those channels to that group. Then you can automate the group fader and the channel faders individually.
That doesn't allow you to use a VCA to change the VCA group whilst maintaining the automation within the group. So no, as you say, it's not a substitute for a VCA - thats merely a group.
LX3
#25
19th November 2012
Old 19th November 2012
  #25
LX3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
That doesn't allow you to use a VCA to change the VCA group whilst maintaining the automation within the group. So no, as you say, it's not a substitute for a VCA - thats merely a group.
My approach does amount to the same thing.

I'm NOT talking about making a group of channel faders so that they move as one (not something I use very often), I'm talking about bussing the channels together then automating the fader for the "bus" (or "aux", or whatever people are used to calling it).

You can automate the individual channels. And you can separately automate the fader for the group channel (which is what Nuendo calls it).
#26
19th November 2012
Old 19th November 2012
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LX3 View Post
My approach does amount to the same thing.

I'm NOT talking about making a group of channel faders so that they move as one (not something I use very often), I'm talking about bussing the channels together then automating the fader for the "bus" (or "aux", or whatever people are used to calling it).

You can automate the individual channels. And you can separately automate the fader for the group channel (which is what Nuendo calls it).
Thats routing channels together. All good but not what VCAs bring to the party. All of the sends would not follow global level. Yeah - it is a kind of work around (if you put the sends into pre and adjust them accordingly) but the point of VCAs is they achieve something quite complex in a simple way.
LX3
#27
19th November 2012
Old 19th November 2012
  #27
LX3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Thats routing channels together. All good but not what VCAs bring to the party. All of the sends would not follow global level. Yeah - it is a kind of work around (if you put the sends into pre and adjust them accordingly) but the point of VCAs is they achieve something quite complex in a simple way.
I realise that. Re sends, that's why I was saying that you bus the fx channel returns for those channels to the same group master, and make those fx exclusive to the channels in that group. It sounds like hassle, but you get used to it. The upside is that, because everything's bussed together, you can quickly try out overall bus compression/eq/whatever if the mood takes you.

It was pretty normal to do this on split desks before we had SSLs etc, so it's a not a new idea. What is new though is that you can run enough effects on a DAW for it not to be a compromise.

(Crikey, remember when most studios only had one "great" reverb? Having to print reverbs to tape just so you could run another?)

I don't know how anyone mixes in Nuendo - or anything for that matter, apart from PT - without doing this sort of sub-grouping.

Not that it excuses Steinberg after years of asking for the feature - and they do say VCAs are coming in an update to N6 - but is there any commonly-used DAW other than PT that has VCA-style channels?
#28
6th December 2012
Old 6th December 2012
  #28
Gear maniac
There is also a workaround with 3rd party plugin which I posted on Nuendo forum.
The free Blue Cat Gain plugin can be controlled by midi, and can be linked, currently supporting 8 linked groups.
When inserted in the 6th slot of the channel, it will control the level changes pre send. The you can assign a midi fader to the Gain plugin, and you have a VCA. You can build separate mixer with 8 MIDI faders which will be a VCA mixer.
Workaround though.
dry
#29
6th December 2012
Old 6th December 2012
  #29
dry
Gear nut
 
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really?

Do YOU do it this way? How do you find the results? This sounds like the first real workaround. Thanks for the tip. (works in Cubase as well- i'm assuming)
#30
7th December 2012
Old 7th December 2012
  #30
Gear maniac
Yes. I use it constantly. The only other plugin I can think of is NLS from Waves. But I dont have it.
Since the plugin is just clean volume fader it doesn't color the sound. Its scalable, means you can define the amount of + and - gain range , choose the fader scale behavior a.s.o.
My workflow: insert 1 Gain plugin, define group , copy across needed channels.
Then insert 8 MIDI channels and connect each channel to the first gain plugin of the group. Cubendo has got 4 mixers so I use 1 for VCA mixer. Works like a charm.
All this Blue Cat plugs have MIDI capabilities. You can do wicked things with them.
Try it!
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