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Icetea335
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2nd December 2012
Old 2nd December 2012
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Maserati speaker placement

http://blog.emusician.com/briefingro...web_large1.jpg

The guy is one of the greats no denying that, but can anyone explain why

1) it looks like his mixing position is in a corner?

2) his monitors are really close or maybe mine are really far? (I sit about 5-6 feet away from mine)

I was trying to see the new controller he's using and noticed this. We see tons of info on where to sit, where to place speakers, but how close is too close (acoustically) and where is the line between having the ears to adjust and be good on any system and where acoustics really matter.

I have a feeling his room is probably tuned and that's the best location though.
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3rd December 2012
Old 3rd December 2012
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can't make out much from that pic, but it never fails to amuse me that the greatest of sound engineers seem to be getting on fine in ridiculously treated rooms, while we out here are bickering about details...

EDIT: Just to be clear, my comment had nothing to do with the room in the pic, which in fact, looks very nice to me, fwiw. I personally know too many good/successful engineers who don't give a damn about acoustics.
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3rd December 2012
Old 3rd December 2012
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That picture sucks. Doesn't show you anything about the room. You can barely tell how far the speakers are from the corner. I'd say about 4-5 feet, which seeing other peoples setups, it's pretty good.

That said, I had the fine opportunity to assist him back in the 90's. He's no slouch at all. Totally worked a less than mediocre track into a banging mix.

He also had a hot girlfriend.

I assisted many great engineers back in the day, and he is definitely high on that list. I doubt that room sounds bad. In fact, it looks pretty well treated from the crappy picture.

I am intrigued by the fact that there are Tannoys there. I love those speakers, and he was using something else if I can remember correctly, but that was 15 years ago.
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3rd December 2012
Old 3rd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiothings View Post
can't make out much from that pic, but it never fails to amuse me that the greatest of sound engineers seem to be getting on fine in ridiculously treated rooms, while we out here are bickering about details...
What are you talking about???...I can see what looks like at least 2 inch 703/Knauf fiber panels (with who knows what else behind to further the trap) all along the wall behind the mons. The monitors appear to be at least an arms length away, which puts them in the midfield and probly super accurate. The whole thing looks very nicely put together at any level. That picture tells me a lot about how good it probly sounds. It's certainly not "ridiculously treated"...perhaps you were trying to make a different point.
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3rd December 2012
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Mr. Wilson,

I was saying nothing whatsoever about the pic in question. And yes, it looks nicely put together. Read my previous post again, it is actually pretty clear.

Regards,
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3rd December 2012
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I guess I'm going on (an I've been reading a lot of other threads) trying to figure out what determines (what principals or formulas) to determine if any how far to sit from the speakers.

I know volume is different from acoustics, but I keep hearing "stay away from walls and boundaries" My room is about 10 feet by 20 and I sit about 5-6 feet from my speakers, not sure why but I've always mixed from that distance. (Yes they're in a triangle and I'm about 1/3 into the room had the best spot after me and a friend did testing over a 2 years ago)

I'm more curious as to how to determine how far the speakers should be, there doesn't seem to be any guidelines; only the following:

Start with

1) equilateral triangle
2) start seated 1/3 down the room
3) aim the speakers down the length
4) toe in 30 degrees toward you
5) aim tip of triangle past your head
6) speakers ear height off desk
7) avoid walls
8) never go wider than how far you sit
9) never go narrower than half the distance from where you sit

So (if most of these are true) are there any guidines as to where to "start" my starting point of my triangle. Do I avoid the walls or focus more on the triangle, how do you know how big your triangle should be? (Is testing the only way?)

And as for Tony the pic and many of others makes me question if the engineer learned his room really well or hired an expert to design it. It really is an awesome looking room though!
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3rd December 2012
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3rd December 2012
Old 3rd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiothings View Post
can't make out much from that pic, but it never fails to amuse me that the greatest of sound engineers seem to be getting on fine in ridiculously treated rooms, while we out here are bickering about details...
??? Tony works in a purpose built room!
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3rd December 2012
Old 3rd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
Thanks! I realize 38% isn't a hard rule (none of them are) it just happened to work out for me. Out of your post however, you're basically saying make a triangle with the center being the center of the room, find the best size triangle (equilateral or not) then move the listening position around while maintaining the triangle to see what is the best placement, then enhance with treatment?

Just want to make sure I understand. Thanks for the help!
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3rd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icetea335 View Post
Thanks! I realize 38% isn't a hard rule (none of them are) it just happened to work out for me. Out of your post however, you're basically saying make a triangle with the center being the center of the room, find the best size triangle (equilateral or not) then move the listening position around while maintaining the triangle to see what is the best placement, then enhance with treatment?

Just want to make sure I understand. Thanks for the help!
Yes, and also:
Where ear should line with monitor

And as always:
4m x 5m x 2.5m room - modal resonance problem
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3rd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
Thanks! This kind of cleared things up, so I guess the next question is when determining the theoretical best triangle without testing, would the 38% be a good place to start till you figure out the triangle and are able to then modify seating position and triangle position? I'm assuming everything would have to be reassessed as every change is made as well?

Is there any guideline or starting point to where the apex should be (how far I should be from the speakers) or is it really a matter of moving along the axis and testing with each move?

Where do speakers and walls come into play? Ie big triangle but speakers are in corners or up against side/back walls.

Thanks for any further advice and sorry for all the questions. I'm trying to understand a science that is very specific under the microscope but vague in word
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3rd December 2012
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If your room is shorter than about 5-7 meters, the best starting point is usually with the speakers centered right up against the front wall (the shorter wall) and depending on the room size, type of speaker and personal preference; the listening position can be anywhere as long as the listening triangle is kept somewhat close to equilateral. If you can treat your room properly (especially thinking of the modal region), you might not need to go into too much trouble finding the position giving you the best response since this will change dramatically once you added proper treatment. Instead you can focus on finding a setup that enables proper treatment (early reflections, modal/SBIR etc.) depending on the design concept chosen.
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3rd December 2012
Old 3rd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
If your room is shorter than about 5-7 meters, the best starting point is usually with the speakers centered right up against the front wall (the shorter wall) and depending on the room size, type of speaker and personal preference; the listening position can be anywhere as long as the listening triangle is kept somewhat close to equilateral. If you can treat your room properly (especially thinking of the modal region), you might not need to go into too much trouble finding the position giving you the best response since this will change dramatically once you added proper treatment. Instead you can focus on finding a setup that enables proper treatment (early reflections, modal/SBIR etc.) depending on the design concept chosen.
Well said and bookmarked.
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3rd December 2012
Old 3rd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
If your room is shorter than about 5-7 meters, the best starting point is usually with the speakers centered right up against the front wall (the shorter wall) and depending on the room size, type of speaker and personal preference; the listening position can be anywhere as long as the listening triangle is kept somewhat close to equilateral. If you can treat your room properly (especially thinking of the modal region), you might not need to go into too much trouble finding the position giving you the best response since this will change dramatically once you added proper treatment. Instead you can focus on finding a setup that enables proper treatment (early reflections, modal/SBIR etc.) depending on the design concept chosen.
Dumb question: wouldn't being closer to the wall cause bass issues or SBIR? Or is this where my panels and adjustments on the monitors come into play?

Thanks for all the advice, saved it all for future reference (moving soon and gotta do this all over again)
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3rd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icetea335 View Post
Dumb question: wouldn't being closer to the wall cause bass issues or SBIR? Or is this where my panels and adjustments on the monitors come into play?

Thanks for all the advice, saved it all for future reference (moving soon and gotta do this all over again)
SBIR is quite complex but in general; by placing the source close to the boundary (assuming somewhat rigid) you will push the cancelation frequency up in the frequency range (since you decrease the flight time difference between the direct sound and the reflection from the surface behind the speaker. There are many positive effects by doing this:

Most speakers become less omnidirectional as the frequency increases so the reflection from the front wall might not be as severe as if it was a low frequency (since most speakers are omnidirectional below about 300-500 Hz).

A “high” frequency reflection is easier to absorb than a low one.

If the entire area below a certain frequency is raised due to constructive interference, you can use the controls on the monitor to compensate for this as it was designed for this purpose. If one the other hand you have peaks and dips due to SBIR if the speaker is not close to the boundary, you cannot use these tools to compensate.


But again; SBIR is complex and as soon as the boundaries are not very ridged, solid and heavy, you really cannot guess what position is going to be the best one (unless you can flush mount the monitors).
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4th December 2012
Old 4th December 2012
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Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
SBIR is quite complex but in general; by placing the source close to the boundary (assuming somewhat rigid) you will push the cancelation frequency up in the frequency range (since you decrease the flight time difference between the direct sound and the reflection from the surface behind the speaker. There are many positive effects by doing this:

Most speakers become less omnidirectional as the frequency increases so the reflection from the front wall might not be as severe as if it was a low frequency (since most speakers are omnidirectional below about 300-500 Hz).

A “high” frequency reflection is easier to absorb than a low one.

If the entire area below a certain frequency is raised due to constructive interference, you can use the controls on the monitor to compensate for this as it was designed for this purpose. If one the other hand you have peaks and dips due to SBIR if the speaker is not close to the boundary, you cannot use these tools to compensate.


But again; SBIR is complex and as soon as the boundaries are not very ridged, solid and heavy, you really cannot guess what position is going to be the best one (unless you can flush mount the monitors).
Awesome you answered my next question about the adjustments on the back of the speaker:

To recap: if there's peaks and dips after testing, speaker position and treatment will be a better bet to correct it (SBIR is a possibility ) if the whole low frequency is affected as a whole it's due to it being close to the wall then I can use the room adjustment on the speaker.

Which brings me to the next question:

Theoretically that room control on the back of a speaker (in which has a roll off around 500hz) is the only effective eq adjustment on the speaker in terms of acoustical accuracy? The other controls should be left neutral because then its similar to using eq which won't fix acoustic issues, correct? Seems like they're there mainly if someone wants to use a sub and roll off the low end or if someone doesn't want accuracy and more so them to sound good (like in a home theater setting).

My last and final question (you have cleared a lot up for me and I thank you a lot!) Besides avoiding SBIR what's the difference between having a monitor (front ported if any ports, I'm assuming rear would be a mess?) in the wall compared to flush up against it?

How come studio owners say putting a front or non ported speaker in a wall CAN be a good way to avoid issues, but home theater people claim that if a speakers not designed for being in the wall it will sound like crap? Can only mid fields and bigs be placed in the wall? Would it be unheard of to place a near-field in a wall?

Thanks again!
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4th December 2012
Old 4th December 2012
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That's a pretty weird plug-in he's using on the screen. Seems to be quite captivated by it too...
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4th December 2012
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The above is a Philip Newell designed room.

Yes you can flush mount any front ported or sealed monitor... but it can be tricky. You will want to decouple it from the wall and compensate for the added bass. Also if the speaker is powered, chances are that it has an amp in the back. You will need to ventilate this space, or remove the amp to a remote location, if possible.
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4th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icetea335 View Post
Awesome you answered my next question about the adjustments on the back of the speaker:

To recap: if there's peaks and dips after testing, speaker position and treatment will be a better bet to correct it (SBIR is a possibility ) if the whole low frequency is affected as a whole it's due to it being close to the wall then I can use the room adjustment on the speaker.

Which brings me to the next question:

Theoretically that room control on the back of a speaker (in which has a roll off around 500hz) is the only effective eq adjustment on the speaker in terms of acoustical accuracy? The other controls should be left neutral because then its similar to using eq which won't fix acoustic issues, correct? Seems like they're there mainly if someone wants to use a sub and roll off the low end or if someone doesn't want accuracy and more so them to sound good (like in a home theater setting).

My last and final question (you have cleared a lot up for me and I thank you a lot!) Besides avoiding SBIR what's the difference between having a monitor (front ported if any ports, I'm assuming rear would be a mess?) in the wall compared to flush up against it?

How come studio owners say putting a front or non ported speaker in a wall CAN be a good way to avoid issues, but home theater people claim that if a speakers not designed for being in the wall it will sound like crap? Can only mid fields and bigs be placed in the wall? Would it be unheard of to place a near-field in a wall?

Thanks again!
Yes. Normally, the controls apart from compensating the RF due to other placements than free field, are there to allow sub integration (if you cannot X-over using the sub) or general tone shaping to personal preference (if other than flat is requested).

Flush mounting a speaker effectively eliminates edge diffraction effects from the speaker baffle and also solves SBIR issues related to the these boundaries (front wall, but also side and ceiling, depending on geometry and construction).
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4th December 2012
Old 4th December 2012
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Icetea335, you wrote: "How come studio owners say putting a front or non ported speaker in a wall CAN be a good way to avoid issues, but home theater people claim that if a speakers not designed for being in the wall it will sound like crap?"

If you with "home theater people" mean people who have a home theater for enjoyment only, their front hifi speakers are often without any control nobs and the speaker filters were designed for speaker placement as stand alone units, somewhere away from the walls. (The surround speakers for direct wall placement could be an exception for this)
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