My First Measurement. Am I doing it right?
kwow
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#61
5th December 2012
Old 5th December 2012
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Yet another update

Hello all

I've been busy making panels, etc.
Here are some pictures of how the room looks as of now.

I still need to build me a desk, build a few more panels, get some new cables, etc. but it's coming along.



Here are two homemade 12 space slanted racks. I recently sold my Yamaha 01V96 and got a used ZED R16, and also got a McOne Monitor Control.


Two 4" x 2' x 4' Clouds


2" first Reflection Panels + 4" panels made with MDF frames and holes on the sides. I haven't hung the 4" panels yet because I don't know how far apart I shoud space them from other panels. any suggestions?




4" Panels on legs for the back of the room infront of the mirrored closet doors.


Make-shift vocal booth that's 2" x 2' x 6'.


I just started to wire up the studio yesterday, but it's sounding pretty good in there (at least better than I ever had it).


Below are the measurements I took today. I used a different mixer for the play back of the sweep, and I used a different mic pre to record than before. I don't know if that would make a lot of difference but that's what I got now.




and the IR file
http://soundcloud.com/kwow-1-1/ir-12-4

Is it looking better? It certainly is sounding better in the room. While I was playing back the sweeps, I was hearing some clicking noise (I'm not sure where it was coming from and I couldn't get rid of it), so I hope that didn't effect the measurement.

I did move the satellite speakers slightly closer to towards the listening position, and moved the sub around a bit. Unless I moved the sub somewhere radically far away, there's not much options as to where to put the sub right now (until I build a desk).

For now, as I mentioned before, I don't know where exactly to hang the 4" panels on the side walls.

I'm planning on making two more 4" panels to hang in the wall/ceiling corners by the side walls, and two more 2" panels to put above the drum set as clouds (and I'll run out of the insulation panels).

Any input/suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,
Keith
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5th December 2012
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kwow
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5th December 2012
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Jens

Thank you for pointing that out. I will take another measurement tomorrow (since it's already passed midnight here).

Keith
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5th December 2012
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Kwow, your room is looking good! Funky colors. For some reason, I feel the need to go take a shower now...
kwow
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5th December 2012
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Thanks Syncamorea!


Must be the curtains ... or is it the Funky colors that make you wanna go take a shower?
#66
5th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post
1 - the ETC is only as "accurate" as the measuring setup (eg, no "operator error"). a measurement platform not taking into account hardware propagation delays is not technically "accurate".
I have read that a few times on this forum.
Could you explain why or point me to a link ?
I cannot get my head around this.
kwow
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#67
6th December 2012
Old 6th December 2012
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Re-Take

OK, Jens and Others

I played back the sweeps a lot louder this time, and I exported the IR file a 24 bit file (I hope uploading to Sound Cloud didn't mess with file).

I had a bit of a hard time because I was hearing loud clicking noises with the sweep, but I guess it was that my ZED R16 not playing nice with the Lynx Two card so I slaved the ZED to the Lynx via ADAT lightpipe and the clicking noise went away. I also had a ground hum coming through the speakers, etc.

I hope this IR file is acceptable.
By the way, as before, this is the measurement for the Left speaker.







http://soundcloud.com/kwow-1-1/ir-12-5

Thank you for any input/suggestions in advance

Keith
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6th December 2012
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My First Measurement. Am I doing it right?-ir-12-5.gifMy First Measurement. Am I doing it right?-ir-12-5-10-500-hz-1500ms.gif
Waterfalls shows long decay times for some modal frequencies, 15, 33, 38 and 55 Hz in particular, very long decay time for 33 Hz as can be seen in the 1500ms range plot.

My First Measurement. Am I doing it right?-ir-12-5-etc.gif
ETC looks quite good but could be improved. Try to locate the spike at about 1 ms (relative to direct sound) and perhaps further clean up the ISD-gap (below -20dB is a good aim) until about 20ms and then either absorb or diffuse the energy at 20ms depending on desired response.


Out of curiosity: The peak level of the impulse is at -18,35 dBFS; what peak level did Fuzz indicate when you recorded these files?
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6th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwow View Post
Thanks Syncamorea!


Must be the curtains ... or is it the Funky colors that make you wanna go take a shower?
It's the curtain! I was just kidding. Nice space.
#70
6th December 2012
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Hallo..

Here we go again..

There is still resonaces around 40Hz and 60Hz and a huge deep between 60-150Hz that hasen't been dealth with, despite the huge amont of basstrapping.

Between the first measurement and the last one is stilll looking the same. The only thing that has happened with the room is, that it is leaning more and more to anechoic condition and left the bass issues/problems unsolved.

Putting in more basstrapping is NOT gonna solve your problems.
#71
6th December 2012
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For the 55 hz you could still use THICK broad band but at this point I would start to look at a slate design on the front. It will help retain some of the upper frequencies. For the 38hz area you are best to look at something tuned like a membrane tuned trap but just understand you are going to need a wide area of coverage and they are not easy to build correctly. I have seen more people fail then succeed.
Just to clarify from another post above you do use bass traps to solve low end problems.
kwow
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7th December 2012
Old 7th December 2012
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Thank you all for your suggestions and input!

Jens
Thank you for your pin point analysis! How does one go about locating the peak at 1ms? I'm sorry, I really don't know anything so if you could explain or post a link I would appreciate it very much.
Also if you have any links that explains what a ISD-gap is and what kind of diffuser I need to look into to deal with it, that would be great since the room is starting to sound dead.

Syncamorea
I know and thanks!

Mctwins
You're right. I was thinking the same thing. Thank you.

Glenn
Thank you for your comment/suggestions. I'm not familiar with this "slate design" that you speak of. Could you explain or show me a link so I can understand?
"Membrane tuned trap" sounds scary to build (haha).


Questions (to all):
1. Should I raise the clouds? There's quite bit of space above them. Will bringing them up higher make it less dead at the listening position?

2. Is putting the Sub towards the back of the room worth trying?

When I play the sweeps in the room, the low end is so intense it vibrates the whole floor. So for starters I'm going to turn down the Sub to see what happens (it may not help with the peaks, but hey, it's worth a try).

I have some R30 left (about 2/3 of a bag) so I'm going to try placing it around the Sub to see if it will do anything. I guess the first place to try would be the front wall/floor corner.

And lastly, the 4" panels that I haven't hung yet, should they be spaced evenly on the wall with the 2" early reflection panels (spaced far apart)? or should I hang them close to the 2" panels? Sorry my questions are so basic but I just don't know and I wanted to ask before drilling big holes into the drywall.

Thank you!

Keith
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7th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwow View Post
Thank you all for your suggestions and input!

Jens
Thank you for your pin point analysis! How does one go about locating the peak at 1ms? I'm sorry, I really don't know anything so if you could explain or post a link I would appreciate it very much.
Also if you have any links that explains what a ISD-gap is and what kind of diffuser I need to look into to deal with it, that would be great since the room is starting to sound dead.
Here are a few links for starters:

How to treat nulls

Monitor & Mixing Desk Placement - Reflection Issues

1D diffusor - vertical or horizontal?
ISD gap for my room help pls!

I think you can find plenty more after reading that. Kfhkh
kwow
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7th December 2012
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Jens

Thanks for the links!
That's right, there's the desk placement/angle issue as well (I almost forgot).
I have been consciously keeping the computer monitors outside of the triangle to avoid reflection which I'm thinking about replacing with a lage LED TV because my eyes are bad and right now it's hard for me to see what's on the monitors.

I will read and study those links that you posted.

Thank you

Keith
#75
7th December 2012
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Quote:
Glenn
Thank you for your comment/suggestions. I'm not familiar with this "slate design" that you speak of. Could you explain or show me a link so I can understand?
"Membrane tuned trap" sounds scary to build (haha).
It is basically slats of wood over the absorbers. The following is what we use but you could DIY something to go over yours.
GIK Acoustics Scatter Plate - GIK Acoustics
Yes tuned membrane bass traps are not easy to build. I have seen more people fail at it over making them that work. But if you are good at wood working it can be done.
#76
7th December 2012
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Kwow.....

You can look here as well.......

My room

How to treat +/- 3dB from 20Hz-20kHz without resonaces.
#77
7th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
Kwow.....

You can look here as well.......

My room

How to treat +/- 3dB from 20Hz-20kHz without resonaces.
rew graphs
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7th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
It's a pity that Genelec has never been in my room and done some measurements, they are very welcome to do a measurement in my room.
#79
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
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I know I am OT some... but I can't help myself.

Is that the McOne monitor controller I see in one of your pics? How do you like it. Is it transparent?

Thanks
kwow
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#80
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #80
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Hi jroode

Yup, that's a McONE. I was looking for a good quality monitor control and I read about it here on Gearslutz. I know lots of people around here speak highly of the Dangerous Music stuff, but that stuff was out my budget so I decided to give it a go.

I just got it a couple of weeks ago, and initially I had some noise/hiss/hum problems but that was just because of the cables I was using. Evgeny at New Old Sound was very pleasant quick with email reply, etc. plus when I wrote to him about the noise problem that I was having, he wrote me an email how the cables should be wired, and even offer to call me (from Israel) to help me out until the noise problem was taken care of. Fortunately, swapping the cables did the job.

Anyway, is it transparent? I think so. I've never had any other monitor control so I have nothing to compare it to. But I have listened to my Lynx Two and Allen & Heath ZED R16 directly connected to my powered speakers before and I can't hear any/much difference. I'm happy with it, especially at this price. But that's just my opinipn.

I hope this helps.

Keith
#81
17th December 2012
Old 17th December 2012
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Yes, thank you.
kwow
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#82
21st January 2013
Old 21st January 2013
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OK, I'm back

Changes in the last month:

I finally hang the 4" panels on the side walls. I decided to get rid of the 2" panels and went with the 4" on the first reflection points (hoping for better bass absorption).

And I got a 55" LED TV to replace the two 23" monitors that I was using. The image on the 55" TV is of course not as sharp as computer monitors, but my eyes are really bad so I wanted to see things BIG.

I have the TV as close to the wall as possible (the base of the TV stand is touching the wall) but it is a few inches in front of the speakers (not directly though). Is this ok? I tried moving the speakers forward but I get the best measurements when the base of the speaker stands are touching the front wall.



I raised the clouds as high as I could because they were pretty low before, and it was sounding kind of dead. There is a beam top so there's still good amount of space above the clouds.

I also hang two 4" panels on the side wall/ceiling corners toward the front of the room.



As you can see on the next picture, I have the cloud closer to the wall somewhat tilted which leaves some space between the cloud and the front wall. I'm not sure if it's better this way, or make that cloud flat and have that space more closed. When I'm up there on the ladder, it's still pretty ringy up there.




I tried zillion different placement for the sub. I was trying to get rid of the huge null/dip that I had between 70-105hz before. It looks a lot better but I don't know how this effected the ETC, etc. Now I have these peaks and nulls between 110-150hz area. I'm wondering what I can do to improve this area.

Glenn had mentioned before that to treat the 55hz peak, I could use THICK broadband (I'm assuming 6" or more?) with slate design. Will I be better off treating whatever corners I can with the fluffy stuff?

Anyway, here are the usual files. If anyone can help me interpret these (Jens?) or give me advices as to what to do next, I'd greatly appreciate it. I've been moving things around and taking measurements so much for the last couple of weeks that I don't know what to think or what to do anymore (hahaha).







http://soundcloud.com/kwow-1-1/ir-1-20-13

http://soundcloud.com/kwow-1-1/ir-1-20-13
#83
21st January 2013
Old 21st January 2013
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One

Even for LF single speaker measurements can reveal differences which are hidden with two running. The measure level looks a bit low again.
If you increase the length of the Window control, the odd blimps at LF assume a more normal shape.
When you are optimising positions of sub, speaker, or listener, make small incremental moves of say 50mm. The RTA/Spectrum analyser in REW gives a more instant indication. It might be useful to place the sub at the Listening position then investigate by moving the mic around likely sub locations.
Flattest LF response should reciprocate. For most mics, HF response will be very underestimated if you point the mic away from the direct line to the tweeter.
The Cloud can perform several functions. One of them is simply reflection control particulary at HF. Hard to tell from the photos but these gaps in your cloud could well be providing a reflection path.
A Mirror would show this danger easily and quickly. ETC is a finer chisel for sure, revealing less obvious and usually longer weaker paths, but If you see the tweeter in the mirror you definitely have a HF reflection path.


DD
#84
21st January 2013
Old 21st January 2013
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Quote:
Glenn had mentioned before that to treat the 55hz peak, I could use THICK broadband (I'm assuming 6" or more?) with slate design. Will I be better off treating whatever corners I can with the fluffy stuff?
If thick then fluffy stuff is fine..

Just a note about your frequency response. To get a room +/-7 or so db is considered outstanding on the low end and from what I see you are there. In fact you are more like +/-5 db besides that dip. I would just focus on the decay times which the more bass trapping you add the better things will become. BTW for DIY'ing you are not doing all that bad.
kwow
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#85
22nd January 2013
Old 22nd January 2013
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DanDan

Thank you for your input.
So to find the best position for the sub, you're saying to place the sub at the listening position and move the mic around? If so, when I do this, will I be playing the sweeps and taking measurements like I normally do? And should the mic be at the regular hight (ear level)?

Is there a spectrum analyzer in FuzzMeasure since I'm not using REW?


Glenn

It's good to know that I'm doing ok with the low end!
So, to get rid of that huge dip around 45hz, I need to tame down the peak around 55hz, correct?

I'm thinking about adding two more panels at the side wall/ceiling corners towards the back of the room + another cloud in the middle placed vertically. There's another one placed vertically towards the back of the room. I'm planning on making these 4" thick like all the other panels just because I'm leery of hanging something so thick and heavy above my head.

But I'm not sure how much this is going to help taming the 55hz area as well reducing decay time. This is why I'm considering covering some of the corners with something smaller than the superchunks stuffed with the fluffy stuff.



And here are some general questions for anyone and everyone (hahaha).
Behind the mirrored closet doors at the back of the room, there is a big walk in closet. Next to that, there is a small hall way leading to a small bathroom and there's no door to the hall way.

Is there something that I should do with the closet and the hall way? Seems like these would be acting as resonant chamber and adding to the decay time, etc. Any thoughts?

Thank you all for your help

Keith
#86
22nd January 2013
Old 22nd January 2013
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Idea

You are very welcome kwow. I would move the mic around freely, without any preconceptions. It is possible that the sub might perform best at half height for instance. In that case it would not stimulate the first, generally loudest (and with biggest null) height mode.
FM does not have a RTA. REW will work fine on a Mac if you use the onboard Line In and Out. FM is brilliant at point and shoot, typical of Macism, but REW has some really great extra features.

DD
#87
22nd January 2013
Old 22nd January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwow View Post
Anyway, here are the usual files. If anyone can help me interpret these (Jens?) or give me advices as to what to do next, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Ok; what am I looking at here? Is the impulse recorded using one speaker or both?

My First Measurement. Am I doing it right?-ir-1-20-13.gif

The waterfall shows a typical room treated with only broadband absorption; short decay in the high frequency range above about 100 Hz, and long decay times below. Modal frequencies of interest are: 15, 20, 24, 37-41, 44, 51, 56, 67, 71 & 103 Hz. I would focus on the ones above about 20 Hz and primarily the 56 and 37-41 Hz mode(s) (but before deciding on what to do about the modal range, you should first decide on a rough position for the sub). Figure out what boundaries are related to each mode and treat these areas with panels effective in the desired frequency range but preferably not above (unless NE style design), unless also an early reflection point.

33 Hz looks to be some kind of external noise, either electrical or a machine of some sort:
My First Measurement. Am I doing it right?-ir-1-20-13-1500-ms-window.gif

If not external noise but a room mode; it´s an extremely long decay and due to the dual slope look of the decay, it´s probably caused by a coupled space (again; if a mode at all). Play 33 Hz and when stopping, listen and check if you can hear any decay related to this frequency. If you don´t hear anything, It´s probably an external noise. To be sure, record your noise floor with and without the microphone on (so you know if the noise is due to electrical problems or some external acoustic noise form machines etc.).


My First Measurement. Am I doing it right?-ir-1-20-13-etc.gif

Assuming only one speaker used when recording the IR; the ETC doesn’t look too bad but there´s room for improvement: Try to figure out where each reflection, above about -20 dB and before about 16-20 ms, is coming from and treat using geometry (redirecting the early energy) or absorption. What you decide to do with energy arriving after about 16-20 ms depends on what kind of response you want. Since you already have quite a lot of broadband absorption panels in your room (since the decay time in the high is already quite short), try to optimize the positions of these panels so you don´t absorb high frequency energy in vain unless you´re trying to do an NE related design (where one basically tries to achieve an anechoic speaker-listener response):

My First Measurement. Am I doing it right?-early-reflection-control-small-room-studio-acoustics-using-absorption.gif


I would at least try and suppress the stuff within about 1,3 ms (relative to the direct sound) and the spike at around 3,3 ms. The early energy might be due to the desk or diffraction from the speaker cabinets, and if so; you might need to live with it since it´s sometimes hard to completely eliminate these kind of problems without extreme measures.

Monitor & Mixing Desk Placement - Reflection Issues
#88
22nd January 2013
Old 22nd January 2013
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Quote:
But I'm not sure how much this is going to help taming the 55hz area as well reducing decay time. This is why I'm considering covering some of the corners with something smaller than the superchunks stuffed with the fluffy stuff.
If you want to bring that peak down and reduce the decay time at that area then you are going to have to make them large. Smaller ones will have some effect but not much.

I just pulled up your test in REW.. I am not so sure you need to show it with a 60 to 70 db range like Jens has but it does seem to need a bit more work in the 55 hz (and below) area. You could go with something tuned like Jens is pointing out but keep in mind that it takes a pretty big area of coverage, placed in the right spot and have to be built correctly.
GIK or Realtraps?

BTW this is a product video (sorry) but explains how something tuned (pressure based) works.
GIK Acoustics Scopus Tuned Bass Trap Product Video
kwow
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#89
23rd January 2013
Old 23rd January 2013
  #89
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Thank you!

DanDan

I didn't think of playing with the height of the sub. I will try it although setting it at different height wouldn't be as easy as just sliding the sub around the floor. Thanks!


Jens

Thank you so much for taking the time to analyze all the data! I really appreciate it.

First, the measurement is with one satellite (left) with the sub. The sub is not an added thing but rather a part of the system (Blue Sky 2.1).

Quote:
The waterfall shows a typical room treated with only broadband absorption; short decay in the high frequency range above about 100 Hz, and long decay times below.
You're exactly right. And it sounds that way, too.

The external noise you're talking about could very well be the computer. It's an old Mac G5 and it's not very quiet. I also noticed the Furman power conditioner unit is also making a bit of buzz/hum noise.

If it's not an external noise, I think it may be because I have the sub placed pretty much right against the wall. I will put the sub away and do a measurement to see if this is the case. It seems that the decay at 10 - 20 Hz range is longer than it was before.

I wonder the "coupled space" you mentioned could be the big closet ...

I'll have to figure out how to record the noise floor with/without the mic. If anyone knows how to do this using FuzzMeasure, please let me know.

The panels on the side walls are currently spaced appart so I'm going to put them right next to each other like the illustration you posted shows.


Glenn

Quote:
If you want to bring that peak down and reduce the decay time at that area then you are going to have to make them large. Smaller ones will have some effect but not much.
How large is large enough for them to be effective? As big as the superchunks I have which are 2' 10" on the front of the triangle and 2' on the short sides. If not triangle, but instead rectangular shape, how big/deep would you say they have to be to be effective?

I have plenty of space at the top of the ceiling in the center along the beam as well as the side walls/ceiling corners. But I'll have to figure out a design that's easy to build.

Your (GIK's) Scopus Tuned Bass Traps look very intriguing! I could afford 1 or may be two, but if I need more than that I wouldn't be able to afford it right away. Any guesses as to how many of these (the 40 Hz ones) I would need for my room (16' x 12")?


I'm going to take down some of the panels and and move them around to see if I can make some improvements.


Thank you so much for your help, everyone
#90
23rd January 2013
Old 23rd January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwow View Post
The external noise you're talking about could very well be the computer. It's an old Mac G5 and it's not very quiet. I also noticed the Furman power conditioner unit is also making a bit of buzz/hum noise.

If it's not an external noise, I think it may be because I have the sub placed pretty much right against the wall. I will put the sub away and do a measurement to see if this is the case. It seems that the decay at 10 - 20 Hz range is longer than it was before.

I wonder the "coupled space" you mentioned could be the big closet ...

I'll have to figure out how to record the noise floor with/without the mic. If anyone knows how to do this using FuzzMeasure, please let me know.
No need to use FM for recording your noise floor, simply record to your DAW or whatever recorder (but 24 bit preferably). Use the same gain structure as you use when making measurements and record about 10-15 seconds of “silence”, with and without the phantom power engaged (this way you can check if the noise is in your recording chain or from an external noise source).

If 33 Hz is due to modal decay and not related to any mode using only internal boundaries, I assume it´s a mode using one or more boundaries outside your room. If you play 33 Hz and walk around, you should be able to figure out what’s causing it (again; now assuming it is a mode and not a noise).

Even if it is due to a mode, it might be too low in relative amplitude to be a big issue.


You might find this thread informative: Need help to tune my control room. (First Measures Included)
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