OC 703 alternative in the EU?

[Rumaben]

Hi all. Im looking too find the closest match too the sound absorption properties of the Owens-Corning 703 fiberglass board which i believe is about the best insulation for making DIY sound panels.

My problem is however that i live in Denmark and would like at the very least too be able finding some good alternatives here in the EU. I've found some good online stores in the UK but i consider those the last way to go.

Thanks a lot.

[DanDan]

I don't believe there is any product of similar rigidity as 703/705. So for 50-100mm traps you could use 100KG and/or frames.
Knauf Universal Slab, or Isover Insulboard, Isover High Performance Duct Cladding, or any other semi rigid slab should work fine.

DD

[Rumaben]

Originally Posted by DanDan

I don't believe there is any product of similar rigidity as 703/705. So for 50-100mm traps you could use 100KG and/or frames.
Knauf Universal Slab, or Isover Insulboard, Isover High Performance Duct Cladding, or any other semi rigid slab should work fine.

DD

Im having a hard time finding any high density slabs here in Denmark.

I've looked all over the list at: http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm but im unable too find any of these in my country. Well many of the brands are there but it's just some very loose rockwool for the most part.

Will ofcause continue to look but i haven't found any good names these last few days.

[Rumaben]

Originally Posted by Victor_Stoian

as you can read on this page the Super FlexiBatts have a gas flow resistance of 20 kPa*s/m² that is aprox the same with OC703.
For thicker bass traps (8" and more) maybe you should consider the FlexiBatts that have 8 kPa*s/m² and are therefor better suited.

Very interesting thank you. I just want too say that if shipping the batts doesn't cost too much im willing too pay this. So if there are any a great deal better in Germany or maybe the UK (not sure about the shipping costs) that alternative is great also. It's just the eu vat and shipping from the USA im hesitant of.

[DanDan]

Rum, I think you will find the products near you. The same product can often appear with a different name. Also, they often don't make the densities obvious, and certainly not the GFR.
OC703 has been called 'essentially perfect'. However, it's GFR was found to be 27000 by NASA. Lighter material used very thickly can yield superb results.
Way back, Victor has shown superb results in a room using exactly this.

How about contacting OC ( EU HQ is in Belgium afaik) Knauf (every country seems to have a Knauf) or Isover Saint Gobain (again everywhere).
They are usually willing to send the densities and sometimes even the GFR.

EcoBatt

DD

[Rumaben]

Originally Posted by DanDan

Rum, I think you will find the products near you. The same product can often appear with a different name. Also, they often don't make the densities obvious, and certainly not the GFR.
OC703 has been called 'essentially perfect'. However, it's GFR was found to be 27000 by NASA. Lighter material used very thickly can yield superb results.
Way back, Victor has shown superb results in a room using exactly this.

How about contacting OC ( EU HQ is in Belgium afaik) Knauf (every country seems to have a Knauf) or Isover Saint Gobain (again everywhere).
They are usually willing to send the densities and sometimes even the GFR.

EcoBatt

DD

Yes im aware that this forum has some excellent posts in it. Will be sure too read some more before deciding.

Contacting the manufactures also seems like a good idea. Thank for this pointer.

[Rumaben]

So I need the density and GFR (<-?) numbers. What is the best numbers too have if i want something similar to the panels from GIK/Realtraps (I suppose they use Owens-Corning?)?

Yes many times they almost show no product details.

If anyone else have some good links too some places close were i live that stock good insulation for absorption I would very much appreciate it.

[DanDan]

For fairly thin panels, say under 150mm, I would suggest 50-100 KG fibre.

Broadly speaking you might expect 48KG Glass = 60KG Rock = 703

However, remember what I said, 703 is more rigid than similar density products from other manufacturers, may sag, will need a frame.

If you are doing thick traps like SuperChunks or square thick ones, use lower densities.

DD

[Rumaben]

Originally Posted by DanDan

For fairly thin panels, say under 150mm, I would suggest 50-100 KG fibre.

Broadly speaking you might expect 48KG Glass = 60KG Rock = 703

However, remember what I said, 703 is more rigid than similar density products from other manufacturers, may sag, will need a frame.

If you are doing thick traps like SuperChunks or square thick ones, use lower densities.

DD

Thanks. I've made 8x 4" panels for the back of the frontspeakers and the rear wall/corners and 12x 2" for all of the first and second reflection points.

Right now i've only some cheap glasswool in them. Looks like this.. Sadly i've thrown out the pack it was in.:





Two pictures of the similar batts (before i returned it) without the paper fronts i think and only 7cm versus 9.5cm before.:





I don't think that it's quite up too the task of absorbing much sound.

[Rumaben]

I've found Knauf EcoBatt, But it's all lambda 37 or higher both from Knauf, Isover and Rockwool. Not sure if this matters?

[Rumaben]

Found this place in Ireland. Although they properly won't allow small orders and shipping can get costly i think.:

Insulation Ireland

[Rumaben]

www.baupirat.de

Closest store i was able too find. 423km south from were i live. They stock both "Isover Akustic TP 1" and "Rockwool Sonorock".

These are pretty close too the OC's right? I haven't seen any tests with them but i've read many use them.

Else it's Ordering from england or getting those "Super FlexiBatts" from a local store in Denmark.

[Rumaben]

Rockwool Termarock 50 is good for under 100mm thick panels right and Rockwool Sonorock for over 100mm?

Isover High Performance Duct Cladding, Rocksilk RS60-RS100, Rockwool RW3 and RWA45 only seem to be available is the UK as far as i can see. Isover SSP2 and Homatherm flexcl i cannot find in Germany.

If anyone from germany could help me out finding a store in north Germany i would be so relieved. Very hard finding any good stores.

Thanks

[Rumaben]

Anyone? What will be most expensive? Shipping from 1000km away in Germany or England.

[Rumaben]

Following the below Absorption Coefficients RS100 doesn't seem that great. But maybe much better under 125Hz? Im doing 10cm panels in the back and front and 5cm on the sides. which of these will do best for my small almost square 13'x13'x8' room with 2x b&w cm9's, cmc2, 2x cm5's and 2x svs sb12 nbs 12" subs?

Here is a list of Knauf coefficients i just got off the company

Absorption co - efficients - S = Solid Backing - C = Cavity
Rocksilk Slabs
Thickness RS33
125Hz 250Hz 500Hz 1000Hz 2000Hz 4000Hz NRC
40S 0.16 0.45 0.82 1.00 1.00 1.00 0.82
50S 0.10 0.60 0.90 1.00 1.00 1.00 0.88
60S 0.22 0.75 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 0.94
75S 0.24 0.53 0.89 0.94 0.96 0.98 0.83
100S 0.39 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00

Thickness RS45
125Hz 250Hz 500Hz 1000Hz 2000Hz 4000Hz NRC
25S 0.05 0.25 0.55 0.75 0.9 1.00 0.61
40S 0.14 0.40 0.87 1.00 1.00 1.00 0.82
50S 0.25 0.65 1.05 1.10 1.05 0.95 0.96
75S 0.50 1.05 1.20 1.15 1.10 0.95 1.13
100S 0.80 1.15 1.20 1.15 1.15 1.00 1.16
50C 0.45 0.95 0.80 0.95 0.95 1.00 0.91

Thickness RS60
25S 0.10 0.20 0.65 0.85 1.00 0.90 0.68
40S 0.13 0.49 0.95 1.00 1.00 1.00 0.86
50S 0.25 0.65 1.05 1.10 1.10 0.95 0.98
75S 0.55 1.10 1.20 1.15 1.15 1.05 1.15
50C 0.45 0.90 0.80 0.90 0.95 0.95 0.89

Thickness RS80
25S 0.06 0.23 0.56 0.88 1.00 1.00 0.67
40S 0.14 0.61 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 0.90
50S 0.16 0.72 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 0.93
60S 0.25 0.90 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 0.98
75S 0.39 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00
100S 0.59 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00

Thickness RS100
25S 0.05 0.30 0.70 0.95 1.05 1.00 0.75
40S 0.12 0.44 0.88 1.00 1.00 1.00 0.83
50S 0.35 0.85 1.10 1.10 1.15 1.10 1.05
75S 0.44 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00
50C 0.65 0.95 0.80 0.90 0.95 1.00 0.90

Thickness RS128
125Hz 250Hz 500Hz 1000Hz 2000Hz 4000Hz NRC
50S 0.40 0.90 1.00 1.00 1.00 0.95 0.98
50C 0.65 0.80 0.85 0.95 0.95 1.00 0.89

Thickness RS140
125Hz 250Hz 500Hz 1000Hz 2000Hz 4000Hz NRC
50S 0.40 0.90 1.15 1.05 1.10 0.95 1.05
50C 0.65 0.80 0.85 0.95 0.95 1.00 0.89

Thickness RS200
125Hz 250Hz 500Hz 1000Hz 2000Hz 4000Hz NRC
50S 0.40 0.50 0.70 0.70 0.70 0.70 0.65

Rocksil Insulation Mat
Thickness
125Hz 250Hz 500Hz 1000Hz 2000Hz 4000Hz NRC
150 0.70 1.20 1.24 1.13 1.14 1.18 1.18
100 0.40 0.88 1.03 0.99 1.06 1.11 0.99
80 0.31 0.83 0.96 0.98 1.04 1.14 0.95
60 0.25 0.60 0.83 0.89 0.96 1.04 0.82

Rocksil Studio Mattress
Thickness
125Hz 250Hz 500Hz 1000Hz 2000Hz 4000Hz NRC
50S 0.25 0.65 1.05 1.10 1.05 0.95 0.96
50C 0.45 0.95 0.80 0.95 0.95 1.00 0.91
S= Solid Backing - C = cavity

[avare]

The RS100 looks fine.

Andre

[Rumaben]

Originally Posted by avare

The RS100 looks fine.

Andre

Thank you Andre. .

The knauf rocksilk rs slabs is slightly better than the rockwool rw slabs aren't they? Im looking too get the best available in europe/uk. Would love Roxul and OC but they're a bit pricey too get from the US.

My room looks like this:



spaceape's Home Theater Gallery - spaceape's new HT (10 photos)

Blu-ray Forum - View Single Post - spaceape's new HT

I've moved my couch away from the back wall now by 30cm. I've read that small rooms biggest issue is the bass so maybe i need some big traps in the back and corners.

If you want please advice. Thank you sir.

[Schaap]

Years ago I got these abs. coef. from the Rockwool in NL:


Rockwool

Hz 203 213(211) 223 233

125 0.26 0.25 0.23 0.24
250 0.61 0.68 0.74 0.81
500 0.98 1.05 1.14 0.98

211 is (almost)the same as 213, higher numbers are stiffer and dense. Strange(?) is that the 125HZ almost not changes.

[Rumaben]

Originally Posted by Schaap

Years ago I got these abs. coef. from the Rockwool in NL:


Rockwool

Hz 203 213(211) 223 233

125 0.26 0.25 0.23 0.24
250 0.61 0.68 0.74 0.81
500 0.98 1.05 1.14 0.98

211 is (almost)the same as 213, higher numbers are stiffer and dense. Strange(?) is that the 125HZ almost not changes.

Thank you.

[Schaap]

Rockwool changes their type, names often and in different countries here in the EU they use diff. names for the same thing


Density:
201 ca. 35 kg/m3, 211 ca. 45 kg/m3, 221 ca. 55 kg/m3, 231 ca. 70 kg/m3

211=213, 211=213 221=223 231=233

My experience at different studios IMO the best is the 221/223. Very nice to cut and handle too.

[Jmskydancer]

Www.ecophon.com by Isover - lots of stuff there.

[Schaap]

More Rockwool data:

Acoustic Coefficient Chart for Rock Wool

[Rumaben]

Originally Posted by Jmskydancer

Welcome to Ecophon by Isover - lots of stuff there.

Thanks a lot. Strange though you need too log in too see the pricelist and no were too register.

Originally Posted by Schaap

More Rockwool data:

Acoustic Coefficient Chart for Rock Wool

I've seen this one before mate. Here the Rockwool RW slabs look a little weak compared too the roxul but maybe they are taken from different tests. In such case the numbers are properly not to be trusted.

[avare]

Originally Posted by Rumaben

I've seen this one before mate. Here the Rockwool RW slabs look a little weak compared too the roxul but maybe they are taken from different tests. In such case the numbers are properly not to be trusted.

Close, but aspirin is still needed*.

Looking at the numbers and vaguely knowing the "geographic locations" where the products are marketed, the RW numbers are from ISO test reporting standards while the rest are from ASTM standards. The ISO standard uses avaeraging of three one third octave bands when doing doing octave band reporting, whil ASTM speciifies using the one third octave band data.

*Bayer created aspirin for acoustics students.


Well medicated,
Andre

[cborg]

Hi Rumaben.

You could check out the swedish isover site.
They have something for ventilation called Cleantec which may match your request (I've got no experience with the OC70x) (Cleantec G 100" abs.chart)
Unfortuntely many of these require buying in bulk from some resellers.

Otherwise "Markskiva" from several manufacturers may be close enough. Don't know if Sweden is closer for you though.

[Rumaben]

Originally Posted by avare

Close, but aspirin is still needed*.

Looking at the numbers and vaguely knowing the "geographic locations" wher the products are marketed, the RW numbers are from ISO test reporting standards while the rest are from ASTM standards. The ISO standard uses avaeraging of thre one third octave bands when doing doing octave band reporting, whil ASTM specicifies using th eone third octave band data.

*Bayer created aspirin for acoustics students.


Well medicated,
Andre

Haha making fun of a newbie are we now.

ISO versus ASTM tests. Makes more sense then.

Originally Posted by cborg

Hi Rumaben.

You could check out the swedish isover site.
They have something for ventilation called Cleantec which may match your request (I've got no experience with the OC70x) (Cleantec G 100" abs.chart)
Unfortuntely many of these require buying in bulk from some resellers.

Otherwise "Markskiva" from several manufacturers may be close enough. Don't know if Sweden is closer for you though.

Thanks buddy. Getting really good slabs here in the eu isn't so easy. Most stores are a minimum of 500km away from were i live. So i think i'll rather buy stuff that a lot of people have tried and liked than getting something that only a couple know of and doesn't know how matches up to the the best of the eu products.

Right now im thinking of just getting some Knauf Rocksilk RS60 and call it a day. Unless someone in here know of something better for my small room.

[mutetourettes]

newbie here in a similar boat(though i'm in the uk so it's a little easier)
aspirin probably required here too.

If I'm going for an 0c70x 4" with 4" gap kinda trap:
looking at the rocksilk numbers it seems RS60 at 75mm is more absorbing than rs100? and RS45 at 100mm is even better? or is high absorbtion in khz exactly what we don't need?
and RS33 at 100mm is similar to rs100 at 75mm
or are we looking at RS100 at 50mm and say let's have two of that! I don't know a) how the numbers increase with extra layers, b) whether those numbers relate to anything about freq below 125hz

If I were to say, nah let's go pink fluffy ecotouch r30 style for the full 8" instead - then what on earth is that kind of product on this side of the pond?

[DanDan]

All of those combos will work just fine.
2x50mm=100mm, they don't behave separately.
There is an improvement in LF absorption in thick traps with decreased density/Gas Flow Resistivity. So frames with RS45 or lighter if you go very deep would be optimum.
However, you may need the stiffness of RS100 so that it doesn't sag.
Also RS100 straddling corners probably has an extra bit drum head type of effect, which floppier grades don't.
Pink Fluffy over there = Attic insulation here.

You should be able to find Knauf Universal Board Ecose. Or the EarthWool version. The names change all the time.
DD

[mutetourettes]

Thanks Dan!

Originally Posted by DanDan

Pink Fluffy over there = Attic insulation here.

You should be able to find Knauf Universal Board Ecose. Or the EarthWool version. The names change all the time.
DD

So any kind of attic insulation? wasn't the pink fluffy R30 supposed to be good in some special way? I'll see what's available local to me...

[avare]

Originally Posted by mutetourettes

wasn't the pink fluffy R30 supposed to be good in some special way? I'll see what's available local to me...

Not in any way shape or form. R30 is a term based on the thermal insulation value of the material. It is ~8" thick. "Pink fluffy" is phrase based on Owens-Corning material which is pink coloured and quite light.

Andre