New basement studio construction - floor materials?

[infiniteposse]

Hi all-

I'm in the process of working with an architect and a designer on the final plans for my basement conversion into a studio space. The space will consist of a live room, a control room and a booth, which will also be stubbed out as a bathroom in case I ever move.

The basement has had issues in the past with minor leaks and to counter this we'll be digging out around the house, sealing the exterior foundation and also adding significant drainage around the perimeter, but there's still concern about the basement getting some degree of moisture that would collect on, around or under the floor.

Accordingly, we've been discussing appropriate materials for the floor and the one that seems like it could look nice, be durable and also easy to add over the concrete slab would be slate tile. I'd have lots of carpets in the space to kill much of the reflectivity of the floor and add warmth to the space, but I'm still not sure if it's just a bad call all around acoustically speaking.

Ideally I like the idea of a hardwood floors, Pergo or the like, but I just don't feel 1000% sure we can keep water out entirely and since this is Oregon, we get lots of water I just see those materials getting trashed with any water coming in at all...

The room will also have many "Real Traps" installed at appropriate locations, so perhaps this will help all around with any acoustic concerns. This is my first build though, so I'd like to get as much of this right as possible the first time.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Lee

Pic of the space --> http://www.pbase.com/infiniteposse/image/58465410

[DeepSpace]

If you get water coming in, that will be a problem regardless of the floor materials. Eg the carpets will become damp and you will then have ongoing moisture and mould (etc) problems.

The only satisfactory answer is to seal the water out with several layers of DPC. And once you've done that, you can have boards if you wish.

[Yetti]

I think that the slate tile would be the way to go for the floor.
You could always lay down an area rug, or a few sheets of plywood down over the tile...whatever is sounding the best for the particular instrument.
You could still make it look nice...maybe apply some wood edging around a birch or oak venner plywood with a good finish.....maybe some thin rubber on the bottom to keep it from slipping, and maybe a some kind of trim bracket on the wall to keep them organized against a wall when you don't want to use them....just rambling now
I am thinking these would both be easy to dry out or replace if needed.
Good luck Brotha!

[zkaudio]

hate to sound like a party pooper, but you need to seal the exterior and let a wet winter pass you by before you put any equipment down there, would be a huge risk. Unless your contractor/architect is willing to guarantee no leakage/seepage. Then you can just sue him if it leaks lol.

[infiniteposse]

zkaudio -

We just had the wettest winter anyone around here can remember and I kept very close watch on the water situation. The leakage is really minor on the whole (probably 1-2 pints on the worst day it ever leaked, which was one of maybe 5-7 times it did all winter) and occuring in 2 places that are very poorly sheltered from the wet, which will actually change post-construction as we're correcting a silly grade issue and also adding a much larger overhang on the roof over a corner that's problematic. Add that to the drainage/ditch to the foundation and I think we'll get it under control... I hope.

We'll get in some folks who specialize if need be as well. I do grasp that there's no sense in throwing up walls that are going to mold, I'm just hoping we've got a solid plan here. Water seems to be the one thing not a lot of people want to give you guarantee's about.

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.

[username]

hopefully someone will come in who knows the name of this stuff.. but theres this Stuff thats almost like a Varnish for cement.. I was looking at getting some myself awhile back (you'd think I'd remember the name!).. anyway.. it sounds amazing and is pretty cheap.. and I might be wrong.. but I'd imagine it'd be more water proof than hard wood.. and even if it isn't it'd be much cheaper to replace

[tINY]

I'd go with a concrete floor with a spray-on urethane coating. Not only is it waterproof and tough, it looks good (lots of color combinations available).

You could sray it on up the side walls too. That should help with water intrusion.

And, buy a dehumidifier. They sell them at Home Depot and Lowes.




-tINY

[infiniteposse]

Cool idea guys. I hadn't thought about a proper sealed up concrete...sort of modern looking and with rugs and perhaps a coolored finish, just about as cool as tile with less worries and cost. Certainly a good one to think about.

Anyone else done this?

Thanks again!

[Jonathan Starr]

I had a similar issue when I built my 3 room studio. We're about 2 feet below grade and the outside wall had been known to leak a bit in very major storms.

I glued and Hilti gunned down 2 x 4 runners every two feet, leaving gaps between the ends of adjoining 2 x 4s so any water leaking in could spread out. Then we glued and nail gunned 3/4" plywood over the runners.

On top of the plywood we installed carpet and floating wood floor where appropriate.

We've had a record wet winter, with lots of local flooding. I have to assume we are getting some seapage down there, but it is nothing noticable and the central ac seems to be keeping any humidity rise from manifesting.

When I did it I felt I was overreacting and wasting money, but I'm glad I did it and in hindsight it was cheap insurance.

[AjD]

Lots of good advice so far... you really need to first address the water encroachment issue from the outside-in. That is: What's your grade like? (It should slope away from the house on all sides - if not fix this RIGHT AWAY.) Also, how are your gutters working? (Walk outside on a really rainy day and see if they're leaking. You may even want to add extenders to draw water further away from the foundation walls.)

Hydro-rated coatings painted on the inside walls/floors are nice, but have you ever heard the old saying, "Water seeks its level"? Unless you've got EVERY SQUARE INCH sealed, the water will find a way to get thru. Better to keep the water away... you'd be amazed at how much water pressure can built up to defeat those coating products. (Still worth a try though, but you've got to do the outside first.)

If all else fails, you can also install a (expensive) french drain system around the house perimeter - it will draw water away from the house, but it requires excavating to install. I have one of these for my walk-out basement home studio, as my house is actually built into a hill. However, it was there when I bought the house (I was looking for a house with a very dry basement, a sentiment I'm sure you can relate to at this point). I would loathe having to plan out/pay for retrofiting a new one.

Once you've fixed the water issue, you'll probably still have dampness issues - unavoidable in warm, humid climates. It'll collect on the surface of the concrete floor and the walls. A dehumidifier will help, but I do have suggestion for the floor.

There is a subfloor product called DriCore that is really great for below-grade studios (and also solves some acoustics issues, if you're not doing a proper 'floating floor'). Dricore is an extremely cool modular tile underfloor made of humidity-resistant wafer hardboard, with these little neoprene "feet" underneath, so the entire DriCore subfloor sort of "floats" over an 1/8" airgap atop your concrete foundation (creating a space for surface humidity to evaporate - not going to do much if there are pints of water, but it definitely can erase mustiness and dry rot problems).

More about DriCore (with pictures) here in this recent thread, also about basement studios.

Best,
Adam
drawingroom.org

[infiniteposse]

Great responses! Thanks so much for taking the time to do that guys.

FYI, I use a dehumidifier at the moment and it works like a charm. My gas heater running during the winter also seemed to keep the space quite dry as well. When that's not running, in warmer weather, the dehumidifier kicks in and keeps things around @ 45-50% humidity (I keep a barometer in the basement).

I currently deal with a slight musty smell using 2 small glasses of white vinegar in the 2 corners of the room, which totally kills the funky smell. It sounded like an old wives tale when I read about it online, but it works in about an hour. I can always tell when the vinegar evaporates as well, cause the smell comes back.

My designer was looking at a similar system for a subfloor to allow for moisture and deal with it's evaporation.

Grade wise, the house isn't so bad. I had some work done last summer and the grade was never corrected on one side of the house after some dirt got relocated and wonder of wonders, problems with some leakage on that side. The water concerns are the first priority and regrading that side and also the addition of french drains down to the foundation are on the list. Some expense and time to be sure, but better than ripping out all my walls because of mold

Regarding the floor, what my architect and designer had proposed with the tile solution was putting down this subfloor material to allow for drainage and then using a small layer of concrete over that which would level the floor in the basement which isn't totally flat at the moment. The tile would have then been applied to that layer. I'm hoping that same approach can happen without the tile and just using a better finish/smoothing process on the concrete so it'll be the primary surface that then gets sealed as described in earlier posts. One of the guys I'm looking at as a contractor seems to have been around the block with these sorts of things, so he's got a good bag of solutions we can use. He's also not a scumbag, which is promising.

Lastly, I don't have very high ceilings, a little over 7 foot in the best places, so there's not a ton of space for subflooring and those kinds of solutions.

Thanks again for the help. It's very appreciated.

[alcohol]

I did this 24 years ago in my basement that floods every once in awhile. I put down 2x4s treated for moisture on their side. 16"spacing.(space was an issue) Levelled them with moisture treated shims and then layed a polyethylene vapor barrier and nailed the subfloor into that structure. The flooring above was a combination of carpet and hardwood tiles. I've had no odor problem from doing this and have used a sump pump on the occassional flooding. I wasn't worried about sound transmission into the basement floor, but if you are and have space there are isolators meant for floors that you could use.

[nathanvacha]

painted or stained concretethumbsup no water's going to mess that up. And how about adding a concrete "riser" foundation only where the framing goes... Instead of a whole new layer, just put it where your walls will be... I have no idea if that would work or not, i literally just thought of that, but it may keep interior walls at least out of harm's way... feel free to debate that one though.

[AjD]

We were concerned about losing ceiling height too, which was one of the reasons we went with DriCore (you'll lose less than an inch) instead of sleepers.

From the DriCore Web site:

A conventional subfloor includes 2x4 sleepers, vapour barrier, 1"-2" rigid insulation, 5/8" plywood and a lot of fastening. The combined height is between 2 ¼” and 5 ¼” compared to 7/8" for a DRIcore subfloor panel.

Adam

[infiniteposse]

Very cool suggestions guys. I hadn't thought of several of these.

Does all of the drycore look like chip wood paneling? They don't have a gallery or anything, so I'm a little confused about how it works. It's subfloor, but I'm not sure if you then put some further surfacing over this. It looks a little fugly as-is from the few pics I've seen. Certainly not what I'd want to look at all the time. Having said that though, I'm reading folks talking about it and it sounds like a solid potential solution for the conditions I'm describing: potential water, cold floor, limited ceiling height to work with. Certainly something worth looking into. - Edited to note I just saw the link to the other thread on the DriCore - I didn't read through that, so the questions above are potentially mute...sorry.

Here's a cool AVS thread about it that's been good reading so far: http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/h.../343861-1.html

Thanks

[AjD]

Infiniteposse, sounds like you figured out that the DriCore is a subfloor product, not a finished flooring. I added a cherry laminate on top (also moisture-resistant) - added only a bit more to the height and looks very much like a wood floor.

It also "sounds" like a wood floor, and that's mostly due to DriCore.

Pic below of the finished product.

Adam

[infiniteposse]

AjD-Thanks for the pic. That's beautiful and warm which is exactly what I'm shooting for at the end of the day. Dank basements just don't say "sit in me for 12 hours on end"

I'll look more into the DriCore and see if my folks have ever worked with it.

[unsilpauly]

i too have a basement studio and i think what you are talkin about is called drylok by ugg? first you use the stuff called fast plug. it a cement and you clean the surface and then apply the fast plug all along the area that is prone to leak. let dry. then you apply to coats of dry lok masonry paint. it is a latex paint that has some cement in it as well. it is ok for indoor use. get the indoor stuff, avoid the oil base for interior use. apply two thick coats of the masonry paint( i applied super thick coats, like really thick) let dry in between coats and your problem is solved. i almost didnt believe the old timer at home depot who showed me the stuff. he said you could even use it if the aea was wet. i believe him now for sure. that stuff works so damn good. my basement hasnt leaked since.
then i just put down a layer of plywood and then some laminate flooring and its doing pretty well. sounds better than when i had carpet down. i too have small cielings(7ft. in the highest spots). i use foam on the cieling over the cymbals and it works pretty darn good. anyway good luck with the basement setup. its all about comprimise in a basement.

[garysjo]

The Dricore product is available at Home Depots and Lowes I believe. A cool product indeed for finishing a basement, however, I would be a bit concerned of the ultimate resonant frequency of the floor though. This should be a major design concern with any type of floating floor. Unless you can get the resonant freq. quite low you might not end up very happy.

[infiniteposse]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the last post about the resonant frequency of this kind of flooring?

[AjD]

I've had no issues with resonant frequencies. However, I do a lot of 'old school' band-in-one-room recording - so I was definitely concerned about them when I first designed the room.

So right from the start, I did a bunch of things to make sure they weren't a problem... not sure if you'll care to bother, but here's what I did:

The biggest issue with resonant frequencies tends to be low end (kick, bass, etc.), but with just one tracking room, it was more than just resonant frequencies I was worried about. In an effort to control bleed, I wanted to isolate *every mic* as best I could from any sort of rumble, instrument-by-instrument.

So I did the obvious stuff - lots of baffles, mics on shockmounts, careful microphone placement, use of nulls and so forth. But I also wound up building custom "decoupling" platforms to rest on top of the laminate floor. Specifically, they are used for decoupling low frequency instruments - like drums, bass cabs, etc. - from the structure of the house itself. (Pic of the drum platform below.)

Essentially, these platforms 'decouple' the instrument from the floor - it's like a poor man's pro studio floating floor. The are made of several layers of Owens Corning 705 rigid fiberglass and high density MDF (plus carpet and pad). (There's a long thread documenting my saga to design/build these things over at John Sayer's site here.)

They have really worked well for me - there's a tightness to low end in my room now that wasn't there before, and vibrations barely register in other areas of the flooring.

Adam

[Sherekhan]

AjD,

I've been reading some of your posts at here and also at John Sayer's forum re: your one-room studio and the installation of your flooring choice and drum riser.

I'm still in the planning stages of turning my [dry] basement into a studio and your idea of using DriCore caught my eye. From further reading on the subject my current understanding is that the purist approach is to glue laminate or engineered-wood floors to the concrete so that the wood and concrete vibrate as a unit--thus making the floor reflective without aletering its resonance significantly. Using something like DriCore [which sort of floats the floor] introduces the risk of having unwanted/unpredictable resonances in the room by having the the floor act as a "drumskin".

I'm going for a one-room set up, and what this tells me is that it is quite possible that putting the DriCore may [subjectively] enhance the sound of the room which could be great for tracking--assuming the introduced resonances are pleasing to the ear--but may not be kosher for mixing where you'd probably want the room to be as transparent as possible. I'm having trouble figuring out how real this trade-off is [the room is obviously not transparent to begin with]. I see you have commented that the DriCore gives the floor a "hollow"/woody sound and that you liked it, but wanted to ask you whether this has given you any trouble in the mixing department [having your mixes translate well]. Have you taken any measurements and identified any anomalies that can be attributed to the choice of flooring? Have you found some instruments [frequency ranges] to sound "better" than others?

I know this all depends on the layout of the room and all kinds of variables that make it difficult to predict what would happen in my situation, but I'm still curious about what your experience has been.

Congrats on your great looking room. A+ on vibe!

Cheers.

[AjD]

Sherekhan,

Congrats on your one-room plan... if your experience turns out anything like mine, you'll be really pleased with one larger room, rather than splitting it up.

About DriCore resonances (vs. flooring glued straight to the foundation), I can't offer anything - pardon the pun - concrete, as I haven't tried the latter approach. I also have not used any measurement equipment to 'prove out' the room. I did the whole thing by ear. Which worked for me; might not work for everyone.

I've had no problems with mixes translating. Like any mix environment, I've had to "learn" the space a bit. But nothing out of the ordinary. When I planned out my space, I found it very important to work with the compromises of this kind of set-up. It's extremely hard to create both a resonant-free mixing environment and a live-sounding performance space all in the same room - especially when the room in question already exists, and has problems of it's own (like all basements do)

Most importantly, the aesthetic quality of a 'real' wood floor was critical to the vibe I wanted to create. I used to own a big old 1920's house in Detroit, and recorded in a former 'speakeasy' basement - complete with bar and original hardwood floor! There were definitely resonants at work there, but the sound and vibe of hardwood sounds 'real' to me and I loved it. I feel I've approximated that vibe in my new space, minus any resonant problems. The decoupling platforms I built helped a bunch in that regard.

Hope this helps! Keep us posted on your progress...

Best,
Adam