My room
Mctwins
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#31
13th October 2011
Old 13th October 2011
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Ok, let me explain a bit about the absorption when I first started to treat my room for five years ago. I have another room downstairs and it was in this room I started.

On my front wall, I coverd it with Dacron 100mm with an airdepth of 100mm and a size of 4,5*2,4 meter with corner traps angeld 45 degress and had first and second reflection point off my side walls and first reflection point on the ceiling also with dacron of 1200*900*100mm. The strange thing a notice when I listening to music was that my eardrum was hurting, it was really painfull. It was so dead that I coulden't listen anymore. One didn't notice this painfullness when normal conversation accure. It sounded better when I removed those Dacron and left my wall with nothing on it. The pain was more noticeble when I played with higher SPL. This was very strange experiance.

I replaced it with diffusion (same size) and it was totally differen't. I really didn't understand how it could be so differen't compare with absorption contra diffusion at that time.

All I want to say is that I tried LEDE concept maybe not excactlly according to the rule of LEDE.

When I measured this room I didn't notice any changes below 100Hz when I had Dacron. When I put HH resonators then I saw something started to happend.

This room is 14meter long with adjacent openings rooms like kitchen and so on and the first wall is about 10 meters long. I mean a big room.

This is my currently room downstairs. In this current setup I don't have so much HH than before, only four of them. Most part of them is upstairs.



You see the slat panel resonators with MDF board, 19mm thick, behind the speakers above the diffusion has 4mm of slats, volume is around 1,5 cubicmeters, even this dosen't help below 100Hz, Don't see any changes in my measurement as well.
The only changes I saw when this slat came up was around 150-350Hz.

This is the reason I don't like visible absoption.

Thanks
#32
13th October 2011
Old 13th October 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
Thanks

I agree that there is alot smarter people. I know also that there is lot's of rules regarding the early reflection, but my feeling is that this is irrelevent because, this with early reflections is working for me, thats all. I was not aware of this when I started with my room, only I liked diffusion before 100% absorption in small room acoustics.

I feel that this reaserch with early reflection is interesing
and will follow it's development.

Cheers and thanks again
two points bolded by me for emphasis.

to be fair, and no disrepect intended... "working" for you is enjoyment. You are listening to already polished and mixed material. "working" for (some of) us entails getting music to the state of readiness for folks like you. I'm hazzarding a guess here, but I bet I'd rather sit down with a beer and enjoy a great record in your room than in an ISD designed control room, but (again hazarding) I'd feel more confident flip flopped in a production scenario. A production scenario must account not only for your beautiful room, but the back seat of a Subaru as well.
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13th October 2011
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Originally Posted by johndykstra View Post
two points bolded by me for emphasis.

to be fair, and no disrepect intended... "working" for you is enjoyment. You are listening to already polished and mixed material. "working" for (some of) us entails getting music to the state of readiness for folks like you. I'm hazzarding a guess here, but I bet I'd rather sit down with a beer and enjoy a great record in your room than in an ISD designed control room, but (again hazarding) I'd feel more confident flip flopped in a production scenario. A production scenario must account not only for your beautiful room, but the back seat of a Subaru as well.
Yes, I understand what you mean. But, when I play a CD-record in my car and play the same record in my room, there is difference. If a recording is properly done it will sound even better in my room. Off course, it is nothing I can do about it, if a record is recorded bad or good. I just have to accept it.

I can still enjoy a good beer and at the same time listening to good music.

Thanks
#34
13th October 2011
Old 13th October 2011
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Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
All I want to say is that I tried LEDE concept maybe not excactlly according to the rule of LEDE.
i think there is still confusion when people refer to 'LEDE' - as LEDE has very specific specular criteria to adhere to (with regards to the time-domain). many assume 'live end dead end' from a physical treatment placement perspective - but there are many details related to the room model to adhere to the defined psycho-acoustic response. ISD-gap, termination (level of termination), decay (rate of decay, density of diffuse field, lateral arrival) - and other factors are a requirement that require surgical attention.
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#35
13th October 2011
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Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post
i think there is still confusion when people refer to 'LEDE' - as LEDE has very specific specular criteria to adhere to (with regards to the time-domain). many assume 'live end dead end' from a physical treatment placement perspective - but there are many details related to the room model to adhere to the defined psycho-acoustic response. ISD-gap, termination (level of termination), decay (rate of decay, density of diffuse field, lateral arrival) - and other factors are a requirement that require surgical attention.
Maybe you are right about this, but of course, it is not written in stone.
#36
14th October 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
Maybe you are right about this, but of course, it is not written in stone.
LEDE is a trademark design, and you have to meet a very specific criteria to actually call your room that. So in a way, it kinda is written in stone. I only learned this last month and thought it was pretty interesting.
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14th October 2011
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Originally Posted by Einstein View Post
LEDE is a trademark design, and you have to meet a very specific criteria to actually call your room that. So in a way, it kinda is written in stone. I only learned this last month and thought it was pretty interesting.
Hmm..so something that is a trademark design means that this is the only way to treat a room. But, mine is working without this trademark.

Don't understand what you mean, Sorry.
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14th October 2011
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This is a CSD without any treatment, clean room, nothing on the walls.




One can clearly see that there is a difference if one compare it with after treatment.

Here I measured it with periodic sequence of 16k. Pitty, I didn't do it with 32k or higher at that time.

Thanks
#39
14th October 2011
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Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
Hmm..so something that is a trademark design means that this is the only way to treat a room.
how on earth are you coming to such conclusions that just because a specific room model has very strict and defined criteria - that this somehow puts forth the statement that it is "the only way to treat a room". would you also insist that some of the cinema theater models out there (also, with very specific criteria) are the only way to build a theater?

so yes - LEDE (for example), has strict requirements that are indeed 'set in stone' - whether you agree or not, it is fact. it may be wise to research some history on different room models and the psycho-acoustic properties that they are based off of.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
But, mine is working without this trademark.
.
and what do you mean, your room is "working" without this trademark? the commentary in post #33 may be worth reading again: My room
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14th October 2011
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Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post
how on earth are you coming to such conclusions that just because a specific room model has very strict and defined criteria - that this somehow puts forth the statement that it is "the only way to treat a room". would you also insist that some of the cinema theater models out there (also, with very specific criteria) are the only way to build a theater?

so yes - LEDE (for example), has strict requirements that are indeed 'set in stone' - whether you agree or not, it is fact. it may be wise to research some history on different room models and the psycho-acoustic properties that they are based off of.




and what do you mean, your room is "working" without this trademark? the commentary in post #33 may be worth reading again: My room
It means that I don't need to share this trademark, that I didn't build this room accordingly. I have cinema speakers doesn't mean that I have to have it in a cinema. The concuision you are asking, was a question from me. I think you are missundertanding me here.
#41
14th October 2011
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Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
It means that I don't need to share this trademark, that I didn't build this room accordingly.
you are free to further explain your original comment, as i was only looking to understand how you arrived at such a conclusion that specific criteria for a specific room model somehow puts forth the intent that this is "the only way to treat a room"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
Hmm..so something that is a trademark design means that this is the only way to treat a room. But, mine is working without this trademark.
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14th October 2011
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Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post
you are free to further explain your original comment, as i was only looking to understand how you arrived at such a conclusion that specific criteria for a specific room model somehow puts forth the intent that this is "the only way to treat a room"...
Ok, See if you understand this then.

I am not using this LEDE/RFZ concept in my room, as you know. This is a deviation from the trademark. So this means that there is no other way to treat a room if this trademark is not being used.

I just can't explain it any better.
#43
14th October 2011
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Mctwins,

What localhost 127 is trying to say, is that simply putting absorption in the front half of the room and diffusion in the back, does not necessarily mean that the room would fall within the criteria of LEDE.... without acoustical analysis and striving to meet the time domain/amplitude criteria, you may simply have a "treated room". For better or worse, that's all it is... and for some this is enough. To state that "lede did not work for me" without confirming you did achieve room model criteria Is like saying you don't like Pepsi after sampling a generic fountain drink.

You are going to have a hard time here. Despite the undeniable impressiveness that is your room. Why?

Studies have shown that listening rooms with early reflections impart their sonic fingerprint on the program material. Good, bad, or otherwise... the room is adding to the recording. In a pleasure scenario... fantastic.

I'm wondering if you have ever had the opportunity to hear truly raw recorded audio? If you've ever experience the manipulation needed to get a mix at a pro level?

You see what we are left with here, regarding your room, is a room that sounds great. If you mix raw audio in a room that sounds great, it will probably sound great in a lot of great rooms... but what you may inadvertently be doing, is not taking into account the back seat of the aforementioned Subaru. I don't believe your room is neutral enough to take bad rooms into the equation in a mixing scenario. Or at least not as neutral as a room that meets proven critical listening standards... again, I'd sooner take your room over a lot of hit and miss treatment strategies... but I feel it'd be like trying to mix with a sonic maximizer on.

I feel like any more conversation on this will be simple rephrasing of the same words. Until more studies can be done to prove that early diffuse reflections of a given magnitude and density either aid in localization cues without disturbing the integrity of the raw signal or are benign, I plan to stick to more documented and proven topologies. That, or you invite me over to mix a record and let me see how it translates in my Subaru.

Cheers

disclaimer: I do not own a Subaru
#44
14th October 2011
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Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
Ok, See if you understand this then.

I am not using this LEDE/RFZ concept in my room, as you know. This is a deviation from the trademark.
no. you did not even attempt to follow the model. and that's ok


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
So this means that there is no other way to treat a room if this trademark is not being used.

I just can't explain it any better.
no. LEDE/RFZ is one of many accepted critical listening models.
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14th October 2011
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Ok, I understand. Let's move on.
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15th October 2011
Old 15th October 2011
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Hi
I want to show the differences in my room "downstairs" before and after I installed four V4 Helmholtz resonators and one can clearly see the difference.

The speakers and the mic was in the same position, mic at sweetspot.

Before; without V4, resonance at 70-80Hz.



After; with tuned V4, the resonance is gone.



This is a proof that V4 is working.

This Impulse Response shows the difference between diffusion and absorption.

The brown line shows when I had two pcs of Dacron of 1200*1800*50 mm, spaced 50mm from the wall and covered the area where I now have placed my diffusion.

The green line is with diffusion.




Thanks
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15th October 2011
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Hi
If one see the ceiling I have on my downstairs room I have perforated gypsium panel over the entire ceiling with a depth of 150mm and filled with roxull behind.

I just want to mention this, this togheter with my slat panel absorber above my diffusor panel and the entire ceiling dosen't help below 100Hz, as one can see.

Thanks
bwo
#48
15th October 2011
Old 15th October 2011
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There's no one arguing that resonators don't work. They're pressure based traps and that is also common in a LEDE concept. It's the best way to treat modes in most cases.

What's a challenge in your room though is the ETC. Well, we still haven't actually seen a correct one. But it's possible to tell from your treatment and seating place that it will be very problematic and your room will add and color a lot. And you will not have the clarity, correct tonality, localization, etc. that a good LEDE room will have.

In my opionion, if I can be honest and not just follow the praise team here, I don't think this room is very well treated. You have still much to attain.
It's not like, oppose to what someone may think, that the more diffusion you have the better it is. One need the right amount at the right places. And also use diffusors that are more broadband and that have real data.

Sure if you're aiming for something else then accuracy, something else might be fine. But I think one should try both before one decides. I would personally start with an accurate setup and move from there rather the other way.
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#49
15th October 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwo View Post
There's no one arguing that resonators don't work. They're pressure based traps and that is also common in a LEDE concept. It's the best way to treat modes in most cases.

What's a challenge in your room though is the ETC. Well, we still haven't actually seen a correct one. But it's possible to tell from your treatment and seating place that it will be very problematic and your room will add and color a lot. And you will not have the clarity, correct tonality, localization, etc. that a good LEDE room will have.

In my opionion, if I can be honest and not just follow the praise team here, I don't think this room is very well treated. You have still much to attain.
It's not like, oppose to what someone may think, that the more diffusion you have the better it is. One need the right amount at the right places. And also use diffusors that are more broadband and that have real data.

Sure if you're aiming for something else then accuracy, something else might be fine. But I think one should try both before one decides. I would personally start with an accurate setup and move from there rather the other way.
Once again, you are making a lot of statements in witch, when I am asking you a question of your statements, you will never answer back.

Before I can defend myself and start arguing with you about this and that, I would like you to show me some measurements of your room, then, maybe we can compare and discuss further. I have never seen a picture of your room or measurements. I really don't know if you have one.

Thanks
bwo
#50
15th October 2011
Old 15th October 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
Once again, you are making a lot of statements in witch, when I am asking you a question of your statements, you will never answer back.

Before I can defend myself and start arguing with you about this and that, I would like you to show me some measurements of your room, then, maybe we can compare and discuss further. I have never seen a picture of your room or measurements. I really don't know if you have one.

Thanks
Whar questions are you asking? You really need to read about LEDE and psycoacoustic studies for yourself. This isn't described easily in a few words. What I'm saying is well documented, but you can believe whatever you want.

What in the world has my room anything to do with this? This isn't a competition. I'm talking from an objective standpoint and are reffering to objective studies. I thought I had made that clear by now.
#51
15th October 2011
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Originally Posted by bwo View Post
In my opionion, if I can be honest and not just follow the praise team here, I don't think this room is very well treated. You have still much to attain.
It's not like, oppose to what someone may think, that the more diffusion you have the better it is. One need the right amount at the right places. And also use diffusors that are more broadband and that have real data.

.
is there something wrong with treating a listening room subjectively?
bwo
#52
15th October 2011
Old 15th October 2011
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Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post
is there something wrong with treating a listening room subjectively?
People can do whatever they want. They can also use linearrays and sit in nearfield. I'm simply commenting regards to accuracy and studies.

I doubt that something very innacurate will be preferred over accurate if one tries both. Some deviation maybe, since there are a lot of bad recordings out there. Too much, and it starts to have serious issues.
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#53
18th October 2011
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Originally Posted by bwo View Post
There's no one arguing that resonators don't work. They're pressure based traps and that is also common in a LEDE concept. It's the best way to treat modes in most cases.

What's a challenge in your room though is the ETC. Well, we still haven't actually seen a correct one. But it's possible to tell from your treatment and seating place that it will be very problematic and your room will add and color a lot. And you will not have the clarity, correct tonality, localization, etc. that a good LEDE room will have.

In my opionion, if I can be honest and not just follow the praise team here, I don't think this room is very well treated. You have still much to attain.
It's not like, oppose to what someone may think, that the more diffusion you have the better it is. One need the right amount at the right places. And also use diffusors that are more broadband and that have real data.

Sure if you're aiming for something else then accuracy, something else might be fine. But I think one should try both before one decides. I would personally start with an accurate setup and move from there rather the other way.
Here is some questions for you.....(boulded by me)

Why do you think that this room is not well treated?
How would you proceed to make it better?
Do you mean upstairs or downstair room?
What brand do you refer to as diffusion with broadband?

Please explain
#54
18th October 2011
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Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
Why do you think that this room is not well treated?
it would be nice to see the polar responses of the large diffuser array on the sidewalls - im curious to know what the mid/lower specular region diffusion or scattering looks like.

are there coefficient plots available? especially @ the angle of incidence with regards to your listening position?

i asked the 'diiffuser.com' user but never saw a response. do you by chance have this data?
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#55
18th October 2011
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Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post
it would be nice to see the polar responses of the large diffuser array on the sidewalls - im curious to know what the mid/lower specular region diffusion or scattering looks like.

are there coefficient plots available? especially @ the angle of incidence with regards to your listening position?

i asked the 'diiffuser.com' user but never saw a response. do you by chance have this data?
Sorry, I don't have any data of polar response. The only thing I have is what is said in "diffusor.com" website. It says for Golden Horn it's diffusion area is between 800-16000 Hz and why should I don't belive this, as any other data.

Your question about angle of incident, do you mean I should measure this?
And what do you mean by mid/lower specular region diffusion.
bwo
#56
18th October 2011
Old 18th October 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
Here is some questions for you.....(boulded by me)

Why do you think that this room is not well treated?
How would you proceed to make it better?
Do you mean upstairs or downstair room?
What brand do you refer to as diffusion with broadband?

Please explain
This is what I think:
-Too shallow diffusors. The numbers Svanå writes on their webpage is somewhat misleading. A diffusor needs to be thicker then what Golden Horn is for effective diffusion down to 800Hz.
-Too many diffusers in the room
-Diffusors are placed at wrong places
-You don't have a RFZ or an ISD-gap. Also likely lack a termination
-And you're sitting too close to the rear wall

RPG has some pretty broadband diffusors. You could probably get them to custom design some that are deeper too.
RPG Diffusor Systems
http://www.rpginc.com/products/diffr...cal%20Data.pdf

I was primarly thinking about your room upstairs, but I would say much of it counts for your second room as well.

If one wants accuracy I would treat a room the following way:
-Treat room modes. Preferably with pressure based traps.
-Create as large ISD-gap as the room permits. The reflections should be down by -20dB at minimum. -30dB would be better. Treat reflections surgically or redirect them to the rear of the room if that's possible.
-Aim for a termination of that ISD gap with -12dB or lower in gain.
-A lateral decaying diffuse field. Make sure one isn't sitting too close to the diffusors.
-Have an even decay.
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#57
19th October 2011
Old 19th October 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwo View Post
This is what I think:
-Too shallow diffusors. The numbers Svanå writes on their webpage is somewhat misleading. A diffusor needs to be thicker then what Golden Horn is for effective diffusion down to 800Hz.
-Too many diffusers in the room
-Diffusors are placed at wrong places
-You don't have a RFZ or an ISD-gap. Also likely lack a termination
-And you're sitting too close to the rear wall

RPG has some pretty broadband diffusors. You could probably get them to custom design some that are deeper too.
RPG Diffusor Systems
http://www.rpginc.com/products/diffr...cal%20Data.pdf

I was primarly thinking about your room upstairs, but I would say much of it counts for your second room as well.

If one wants accuracy I would treat a room the following way:
-Treat room modes. Preferably with pressure based traps.
-Create as large ISD-gap as the room permits. The reflections should be down by -20dB at minimum. -30dB would be better. Treat reflections surgically or redirect them to the rear of the room if that's possible.
-Aim for a termination of that ISD gap with -12dB or lower in gain.
-A lateral decaying diffuse field. Make sure one isn't sitting too close to the diffusors.
-Have an even decay.
I'm gonna try to answer accordingly..


1. The data that you want to see for any diffusor is totally irrelevant. If the data of some kind is shown from various brand is good enough for me. I can never predict how the diffusor is gonna be working in my room only from seeing the dataspec. If it is misleading, then it's up to you to feel that.


2. I can't agree that to many diffusor is gonna degrade the performance.


3. Right or wrong is always an issue to discuss where to place diffusor. Where I have my diffusor now, is totally perfect.


4. I don't need and don't care about RFZ or ISD-gap.


5. I sit close to the diffusor everytime I listen to music and have no problems at all. But maybe, this has to do that I have the right kind of diffusor.


You are saying I can get costum design from RPG to have them deeper and that is exactly what I can get for my diffusor. One can always build a diffusor within a diffusor. But, in my room it is more than enough.


Comments on how you would treat a room:


What you are saying here is that you are heading for a LEDE/RFZ in a normal listening/livingroom. So for you, this means that this is the only way. As I understand it, it can never be implemented in a listening/livingroom according to this trademark, because, I can never follow the criteria that is involved when building this LEDE/RFZ concept. If I can not follow and meet this criteria then I can never call it a LEDE/RFZ room. I have allready a deviation in my room.


This is clearly stated in "Master Handbook of Acoustics" on chapter 21, page 429.


If the intention is to build a controlroom then I can accept that LEDE/RFZ is one option that can be followed. But I can never accept that this has to be followed in a ordinary listening/livingroom. This means that as and end user of all the music that is mixed with this LEDE/RFZ in mind can never be utilized in a normal listening/livingroom. Then it has to be something wrong here. Then maybe this concept is wrong from the beginning due to the fact that the majority of us have already bad rooms.


So, your choice of accuracy and to treat a room is very difficult to achieve for most of us. Then I can't stop asking myself if you have this in your listening/livingroom.


Do you have this????


My room upstairs and measurements on this thread is an good example of how it can be treated in another way. I will say it again that I don't need a LEDE/RFZ treated room.


Thanks
#58
19th October 2011
Old 19th October 2011
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Here's an excellent post by Dyk that explaines exactly what you guys are bickering about...

ideal room


Cheers,
#59
19th October 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mctwins View Post
2. I can't agree that to many diffusor is gonna degrade the performance.

Thanks
just FYI - design considerations do need to be taking into consideration when deploying large arrays of diffusers (especially if they are repeating).





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#60
19th October 2011
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Read it and it is noted.

But I am glad that I'm not using QRD diffusor. They seem to develop loobing. Who wants that.

Thanks
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