in general, which room would u choose?8' ceilings or sloped ceilings 8-12ft on 1 side

[damien907]

ill include some diagrams in here, im working with a small budget 400 MAX, but im thinking more in the 200 dollar range.

the rooms are both the same dimensions, Length and width wise, the height is the only factor that switches.

im talking about 2 different rooms here also.

space 1 includes:

room 1. 11' X 11' with 8 ft ceilings (thinking about this for the control room, but i dont know about the standing waves with the 8 ft ceilings)

room 2. 12'6'' x 10' with 8 foot ceilings (thinking about making this the vocal room)

space 2 includes:

room 1: 11' x 11' with one side of the room 7' 10'' high and the other side of the room 12' high (i was thinking this could be used as the control room, and thought maybe not as many standing waves would build up because of the slope of the rooms height.

room 2: 12'6'' X 10' with the same slope as the previous room in this space. 7'10'' ceilings one one side and also 12' on the other side.


now i wana get my vocals as dead as possible, i was gonna build some rolling baffles with rockwool and something like a SE reflection filter around the mic, i was also going to cover the top of the baffled area with more rockwool so i will have a vocal in a tight contained space.

so now it comes down to a money issue, i know the bigger room will be harder to treat, but i dont know if the mic would generally even pick up reflections that far away or that high up in the vaulted ceiling room, but on the same token, it would be way easier to hang some packing blankets if the ceiling itself was flat. so thats why i am considering the 8 foot high ceiling space as opposed to the sloped vaulted ceilings.

with this information, what room would you choose and why.

i have posted a couple other threads about the vaulted ceiling space, but now am considering the 8 foot space because the vaulted ceilings will cost more to treat and the rent in the vaulted ceiling space is more expensive also.

thanks alot for any insight you guys have into this, and i know that you cant see the room, im just going by dimensions, i was just wondering which space you would choose and why.

[SAC]

Just a few random thoughts...

Quite frankly, with a $200 budget you are going to be able to do little else than build a couple of absorptive GOBOS.

Thus, while the slope ceiling space is much more flexible, it really is a wash as determined by the critical limitation of the treatment.

A few points - packing blankets will do little that is productive. They are effective only with regards to high frequencies. They are not effective with regards to the much higher energy content critical mid frequencies from ~300 Hz to 5kHz - where the blankets will do little or nothing.

In the low ceiling you will need to use absorption as the reflections will wreak havoc with the phasing between direct and reflected signals. In the sloped ceiling, reflections are redirected and proper placement can avoid significant problems, not to mention the potential to construct and install such techniques as collimating phase gratings (aka Space Couplers) which allow the energy to pass through them, be scattered about the upper space and return in a more greatly diffuse field.

In a control room, the slope can also be used to good advantage as by facing the low side, as the redirection of ceiling reflections back into the ISD will be minimized and any reflected energy can be retained for terminating the ISD or possibly contributing to a later arriving diffuse soundfield. Again, without Space Coupler style gratings (and their additional expense/labor to make), the later point may be moot considering the size of the room.

As far as room modes, the sloped ceiling will cause the modes to be more unevenly (and less predictably) distributed, thus requiring measurements to determine their distribution. Other than that, and perhaps a decrease in the ~70 Hz issue related to an 8 ' ceiling height, don't expect significant differences. You will still have modes requiring treatment.

Personally, I would choose the sloped ceiling, but if treatment is so limited (to a few GOBOS), aside from a few fundamental advantages to the sloped space, I don't know if the ROI difference is going to be substantially greater - as its going to be tough to provide sufficient bass trapping and absorptive panel GOBOS for $200.

[damien907]

thanks SAC, you always posting some informative stuff in this forum, and if i recall it was you that was tellin me to treat my room with the analyzer in my last thread.

so just wanted to say thanks for that, and all i am gonna build is some gobos with some rockwool and a roof on top of that with a DIY se reflection filter type thing. im mainly gonna be recording vocals, pretty much exclusively, but might try and acoustic guitar or 2 just to see if i can get them to sound nice in that room.

one of my friends told me that he was using some thin type blankets and they took away the flutter echo of his room pretty well, so by all means im not trying to make a million dollar sounding recording space, just get by without too much room tone on the vocals im gonna be tracking.

thanks again for your help, i was freaking out about the sloped ceilings, but i think i can use them to my advantage now, and one more thing ***in general***, i was just gona start out my mic placement on the lower side of the room and point my vocalist towards the 12' end and putting the gobos around them on 3 sides with the roof.
would that be where you would start your setup too?
i know its all subjective, but i think that would be a good starting point for my mic placement. is there any reason it wouldent?

[SAC]

You're on the right track. By using the GOBOS you effectively define the space and eliminate the room (to a degree) from the equation. And if you desire a 'dead' response, you are matching the goal with the right tools.

Packing blankets will reduce flutter echo, but be careful not to overdo them, as they will only reduce low energy high frequencies that are too easily damped.

Just be aware, you still need to be cognizant of the insidious bass modes!

Oh, and if you have the ability to make measurements, explore various mic positions relative to the reflections that return at the mic. Phasing issues can be identified and mitigated while discovering orientations that can impart various desirable responses (as well as identify problematic ones to avoid!). This is more a problem with the room than with GOBOS, but I can't stress enough the value of also performing this measurement with GOBOS - as you just may discover that the absorbers have a higher reflective coefficient than you assumed! And this often overlooked aspect, while easily addressed, can unexpectedly bite you in the posterior if not anticipated!

[Glenn Kuras]

As always SAC is spot on but just to add (if he did not say this). I would take the larger room as down the road you will have funds to invest into more treatment. It is not like you need to spend 5K on the room, but frankly the price of a nice preamp would pretty much cover that. Just keep that in mind.

[damien907]

without Space Coupler style gratings (and their additional expense/labor to make), the later point may be moot considering the size of the room.

^^^^^^^^^^^are these diffusers your talking about?

and yes glenn, i have thought about that, i already have the preamp i need for what im doing now, so all the rest of my money is goin into acoustics. unless i want another preamp and mic to bloomline the acoustic guitars... the life of a gearslut

and one more thing, im thinking of making these gobo/ baffles out of rockwool, my friend used 2" thick boards of it, but i was thinking 4" thick might be better? what are your thoughts on this? heres a picture similar to the baffles im going to make

[Glenn Kuras]

I would make those 4" as when your not using them as baffles you can straddle corners and use them for bass traps. The same concept (kind of) as our screen panel.

[damien907]

cool thanks glenn, i was thinking 4'' would be better, and im gonna make some 2'' ones for my mix room and use the mirror trick to figure out where to place them on the wall... guerrilla acoustics.

i was also thinking of making my 11x11 room 11x 10 or 11x9 by putting a bunch of boxes or something so my room isnt so... square. haha.

i never thought of using the baffles as bass traps also, but thanks for the idea! im definitely gonna be doing that when im mixing.

i was thinking that if they were taller and triangle shaped (to fit the 90 degree corner of the walls) that that would work better as a bass trap, but ill do that if my funds permit.

i have read that maybe 6lb density rockwool is'nt necessarily the best for bass traps, but ill have to do some reading more into proper bass traps.

thanks again for all the great info guys!

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by damien907

cool thanks glenn, i was thinking 4'' would be better, and im gonna make some 2'' ones for my mix room and use the mirror trick to figure out where to place them on the wall... guerrilla acoustics.

i was also thinking of making my 11x11 room 11x 10 or 11x9 by putting a bunch of boxes or something so my room isnt so... square. haha.

i never thought of using the baffles as bass traps also, but thanks for the idea! im definitely gonna be doing that when im mixing.

i was thinking that if they were taller and triangle shaped (to fit the 90 degree corner of the walls) that that would work better as a bass trap, but ill do that if my funds permit.

i have read that maybe 6lb density rockwool is'nt necessarily the best for bass traps, but ill have to do some reading more into proper bass traps.

thanks again for all the great info guys!

I myself like 8lb on 4" panels, but you can go as low as 4lb.

[damien907]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

I myself like 8lb on 4" panels, but you can go as low as 4lb.

cool, do you use the triangle design also? i didnt know they made 8lb density insulation type material.

[Glenn Kuras]

For the triangle design use 4lb or less.

[damien907]

cool, i will keep that in mind.