Help with panels. Crappy mixes!!!

[iceaddiction]

Hi guys,

Congratulations for this forum!.

Any help would be a apreciated on this matter. I've been having problems with my mixes since i changed my control room. I made some measurements posted here and I would appreciate any help on how to improve my room as I don't know how to read them. The room measure is: 3,60m x 3,00m x 2,54m. The hearing point is surrounded by vinyl shelves as you can see, walls are wood and there's a door and a window.

Here in Spain I have Vicoustics for panels and bass traps so please inform me about what i need. Thanks a lot in advance and keep me posted if you need further information.

[localhost127]

those look like ikea expedit bookshelves
if you dont have room for a lot of bass traps in your area, you could do like i plan on doing shortly and stuffing unused areas of my bookshelves with OC703 fiberglass for extra absorption.

[iceaddiction]

Originally Posted by localhost127

those look like ikea expedit bookshelves
if you dont have room for a lot of bass traps in your area, you could do like i plan on doing shortly and stuffing unused areas of my bookshelves with OC703 fiberglass for extra absorption.

Yeah expedit a go go!

Do you mean to fill in the squares with absorption covering the vinyls? I don't have unused areas ) Anyway I can stick basstraps in the high corners, the door wall, behind the speakers and ceiling...I'm aiming about what would be the best fitting and what kind of material. What do you think??

[localhost127]

any chance you could move the bookshelves w/ your vinyl to another room?

[DanDan]

Hola ice. I would need a bit more info to interpret those graphs? Where did they come from? Is ERGO the automatic room Eq system? I would bypass that until you get your room treatment done as best you can.
There is little space to do much here, but the graphs don't look so scary.

Mixes will translate well if you adjust your speakers for a gradual HF roll off.
Very approx +3dB at 100Hz sloping down to -3dB around 10-12KHz should work nicely. See studiotips - tips on studio design, acoustics, and wiring Understanding RTA.

Treatment. A Cloud should help. In a small room, I would use a thick cloud, say 100mm, with a similar gap above it. If you are DIY ing these, look for rigid panels of fibreglass or Rockwool. RS100 is nice and stiff.
These panels can be bought with a foil attached. Sometimes called FRK around here. I would leave that foil on the top surface of the panels, e.g. your 100mm cloud will probably be two 50mm panels stuck together. Remove the foil from the middle, but leave it on the top surface, facing the ceiling. This would be very similar to a very well known and very good US product.

Try playing some LF sine waves in your room. Slowly sweep through 30-200Hz. Stop when you hit an obvious resonance. Move about the room, particularly the high corners. You should find areas where the sound is very loud. Those are the best places to install Bass Traps.

I don't think treatment behind the speakers will do much.

DD

[iceaddiction]

Originally Posted by DanDan

Hola ice. I would need a bit more info to interpret those graphs? Where did they come from? Is ERGO the automatic room Eq system? I would bypass that until you get your room treatment done as best you can.
There is little space to do much here, but the graphs don't look so scary.

Mixes will translate well if you adjust your speakers for a gradual HF roll off.
Very approx +3dB at 100Hz sloping down to -3dB around 10-12KHz should work nicely. See studiotips - tips on studio design, acoustics, and wiring Understanding RTA.

Treatment. A Cloud should help. In a small room, I would use a thick cloud, say 100mm, with a similar gap above it. If you are DIY ing these, look for rigid panels of fibreglass or Rockwool. RS100 is nice and stiff.
These panels can be bought with a foil attached. Sometimes called FRK around here. I would leave that foil on the top surface of the panels, e.g. your 100mm cloud will probably be two 50mm panels stuck together. Remove the foil from the middle, but leave it on the top surface, facing the ceiling. This would be very similar to a very well known and very good US product.

Try playing some LF sine waves in your room. Slowly sweep through 30-200Hz. Stop when you hit an obvious resonance. Move about the room, particularly the high corners. You should find areas where the sound is very loud. Those are the best places to install Bass Traps.

I don't think treatment behind the speakers will do much.

DD

Hey dan!

I made the measures with the Room Eq Wizard through my ergo system, yes, cause even with it I'm having tons of problems with my mixes.

In the corner where the door is, bass is very loud also the parallel corner where the window is (no pic though). So I thought about cover the door and the wall beside with absortion and a bass trap in the upper corner as well as the cloud above the hearing position and more bass traps in any upper corner in the room...What do you think??

Regarding the cloud, I was thinking in it too but no with this kind of stuff...I was thinking in foams from Vicoustic or Auralex, is the only thing I can easily find here in Barcelona, but I can try the rockwool too. More suggestions are totally welcome, I really need to fix this

[iceaddiction]

Originally Posted by localhost127

any chance you could move the bookshelves w/ your vinyl to another room?

No chance to move my vinyls out of the room...

[DanDan]

Well the cloud will definitely help. 10cm of Fibreglass or Rockwool with a 10cm airgap is very powerful. It would take a lot of foam, i.e. money to get equal to that. It does work though, and the Vicoustic stuff looks good. Try to have that airgap above or behind the foam panels. It kinda doubles the effect for free!
What problem are you having with your mixes? Are they dull in the outside world? That curve I suggested will fix that.
DD

[boggy]

iceaddiction, you have a really small room, and there you achieve very small improvements.

i suggest:

1. Try to pull back your listening/working place. Spend some time to find best position for your loudspeakers (use stands) ... Your loudspeakers aren't in best position now... they are too near to wall.

2. Try to find some rockwoll in Barcelona, and build heavy bass trap in space behind your loudspeakers, which you will gain when you find better position for them. For frequencies lower than... say... 200Hz... bass traps works even behind sound sources... because loudspeakers are omnidirectional below cca 200Hz, then (some) bass trapping is still possible.

3. Some ceiling absorption is also a good idea, but try, to build big bass trap in upper corner right in front of you

4. Foam is too expensive and not effective because of small density. Use dense rockwoll... lot of it!

regards

boggy

[iceaddiction]

I found the rockwool but is full of different products...I found one which is suposed to be for ceilings and floors with a density of 150 kg/m3. I guess I need to dress up this fiberglass panel with something right? and regarding the gap...how I supose to make it?...sorry but I don't know how to do this...i think i have to stick the panels to the ceiling...

My mixes? Well not dull...too much middle frequencies, no definition in bass, I can't glue bass and bd properly...but mostly the problem is with middle and high middle frequencies

[boggy]

Density of 150kg/m3 for your rockwoll is very good indeed, and you may use this material for all your absorbers.

You may use air transparent fabric for panels clothing... but you can find more good advices in sticky threads here, about bass trap building.

regards

boggy

[DanDan]

This is getting a bit confusing. Boggy, my apologies but you are simply not correct.

703 is generally considered as the almost perfect absorption product.
(48Kg). 705 is also often used up to 100 cm or so (96KG). I have never seen 150KG even mentioned before, not alone actually used. Plus it would be very heavy and very expensive.

The frequency response graphs and the pictures indicate that the speakers are in the best position possible in this room. If he moves the speakers away from the wall, the bass will diminish. Look at the graphs.

ice, there is plenty of detail on DIY construction at studiotips - tips on studio design, acoustics, and wiring and at johnlsayers.com

The gap is created by simple hanging arrangement, string or rope!. The panels are wrapped in fabric. Hessian/Burlap is often used. The fabric and be held in place by spray glue. Spraytac.

I am sure Vicoustic would sell you some sort of cloud arrangement.
Call them.

Your problems may be due to comb filtering caused by reflections from the ceiling. I am 100% sure you need to treat that first. Search here and elsewhere for the 'mirror trick'. A mirror and a friend will help you find out where exactly to place your cloud. You could also guess it if you play snooker or pool! Your wall boards are a Bass trap. That is why I suggest that you play the LF sines, find your worst modes and find exactly where they cause the biggest build up. Focus any Bass traps there. RealTraps or GIK are probably a good idea up in the high corners.
DD

[iceaddiction]

Originally Posted by DanDan

This is getting a bit confusing. Boggy, my apologies but you are simply not correct.

703 is generally considered as the almost perfect absorption product.
(48Kg). 705 is also often used up to 100 cm or so (96KG). I have never seen 150KG even mentioned before, not alone actually used. Plus it would be very heavy and very expensive.

The frequency response graphs and the pictures indicate that the speakers are in the best position possible in this room. If he moves the speakers away from the wall, the bass will diminish. Look at the graphs.

ice, there is plenty of detail on DIY construction at studiotips - tips on studio design, acoustics, and wiring and at johnlsayers.com

The gap is created by simple hanging arrangement, string or rope!. The panels are wrapped in fabric. Hessian/Burlap is often used. The fabric and be held in place by spray glue. Spraytac.

I am sure Vicoustic would sell you some sort of cloud arrangement.
Call them.

Your problems may be due to comb filtering caused by reflections from the ceiling. I am 100% sure you need to treat that first. Search here and elsewhere for the 'mirror trick'. A mirror and a friend will help you find out where exactly to place your cloud. You could also guess it if you play snooker or pool! Your wall boards are a Bass trap. That is why I suggest that you play the LF sines, find your worst modes and find exactly where they cause the biggest build up. Focus any Bass traps there. RealTraps or GIK are probably a good idea up in the high corners.
DD

Ok then. I'll talk with vicoustics and let's see what they say about. If it's very expensive I'll try with rockwool 100kg for the cloud and bass traps for the corners, specially where the door is as there is a mess with bass. Apart from this...do you suggest to tweak speakers HF roll off?

[DanDan]

HF roll off no doubt. See Understanding RTA at studiotips - tips on studio design, acoustics, and wiring
DD

[boggy]

Originally Posted by DanDan

This is getting a bit confusing. Boggy, my apologies but you are simply not correct.

It's ok what's wrong?

Originally Posted by DanDan

703 is generally considered as the almost perfect absorption product.
(48Kg). 705 is also often used up to 100 cm or so (96KG). I have never seen 150KG even mentioned before, not alone actually used. Plus it would be very heavy and very expensive.

iceaddiction has a very small space for some (serious) bass traps, thus my advice to go with dense and heavy rockwoll. It's not too expensive... this is a rockwoll mostly used for floating floors.
I'd never give advice to anyone to use rockwool that dense for panels, if he had a bigger space... this is a compromise, for sure.

Originally Posted by DanDan

The frequency response graphs and the pictures indicate that the speakers are in the best position possible in this room. If he moves the speakers away from the wall, the bass will diminish. Look at the graphs.

Sorry, I never (NEVER) would say that before proper checking... (my own experience)
Ice has, again, a very small space... he can have good symmetry (stereo image balance in mix) only if the same treatment is applied to both left and right sides... and I see some space behind loudspeakers for that... if he shifts his mix position further back.
You're right, bass may be "diminish"... but he doesn't need bass which is hyped and boomy... (he told us that was the problem with the mixes)
EDIT: Ice, you can check this: mh-audio.nl - Acoustic
This text describe wall-behind-speakers problem

regards

boggy

[nms]

you should do a graph with Ergo bypassed if you want to see what's really going on with your room. The idea would be to treat your room as best you can, then recalibrate your Ergo. I'm in the process of doing a small room as well and what I'm doing is wall to wall 6" thick Roxul on the front wall, with the thinnest clear poly they had for sale at home depot spray adhesived on, then wrapped in fabric. Then 16" x 16" triangular bass traps on each side of the front wall going right up to the ceiling. Same fabric & poly wrap there as well.

I don't think I would recommend any additional EQ, since that's what the Ergo is built for and applies it in a much more precise manner than you'd be able to.

[SAC]

2 quick observations.

(as previously mentioned) Turn Ergo OFF and then do measurements! (...for each speaker, one driven at a time without moving the mic for any of the measurements!)

FR, waterfall - both linear scale, unsmoothed and windowed to ~ 400 Hz for modal analysis, ... above that point all it shows is that there is comb filtering going on - and despite my not being psychic, even I can predict that.

Also, derive the impulse response and ETC response (from the IR) windowed to about 60ms. This will provide sufficient information to identify the various specular reflections which dominate above the modal region. From this you can address them individually according to the room response you desire.

That will show you just about all you need to know to have a pretty comprehensive idea at this point.

Also, the record shelves are acting as absorbers.

[iceaddiction]

Originally Posted by SAC

2 quick observations.

(as previously mentioned) Turn Ergo OFF and then do measurements! (...for each speaker, one driven at a time without moving the mic for any of the measurements!)

FR, waterfall - both linear scale, unsmoothed and windowed to ~ 400 Hz for modal analysis, ... above that point all it shows is that there is comb filtering going on - and despite my not being psychic, even I can predict that.

Also, derive the impulse response and ETC response (from the IR) windowed to about 60ms. This will provide sufficient information to identify the various specular reflections which dominate above the modal region. From this you can address them individually according to the room response you desire.

That will show you just about all you need to know to have a pretty comprehensive idea at this point.

Also, the record shelves are acting as absorbers.

So you mean to measure each speaker separately with the Ergo bypassed right?

Ok, I'm gonna proceed with that...keep you all posted with the new graphs asap!

[DanDan]

ice, it is not necessary to learn how to and then perform these measurements. On their own they do not always provide clear information.
You have very few places to place treatment. You definitely need a cloud. The sides are already absorbent, the vinyl. That only leaves the Bass traps. You have few places to put them. Sine waves will identify the best places without doubt and simply.
DD

[boggy]

Originally Posted by nms

you should do a graph with Ergo bypassed if you want to see what's really going on with your room.....

Because of this, I actually ignore all of his measurements, and look only at the photos.

regards

Boggy

[iceaddiction]

Originally Posted by DanDan

ice, it is not necessary to learn how to and then perform these measurements. On their own they do not always provide clear information.
You have very few places to place treatment. You definitely need a cloud. The sides are already absorbent, the vinyl. That only leaves the Bass traps. You have few places to put them. Sine waves will identify the best places without doubt and simply.
DD

Hey, I made measurements with the ergo bypassed anyway. Talking with Vicoustics they recommend me to instead of an absorption cloud put a RPG Skyline, and then bass traps in different places...mostly corners and between ceiling and wall behind the speakers...What do you think?

[DanDan]

ice, the Vicoustics advice is nonsense in the context of your room.
My recommendations have not changed, so they are all in my earlier posts.
DD

[iceaddiction]

Originally Posted by DanDan

ice, the Vicoustics advice is nonsense in the context of your room.
My recommendations have not changed, so they are all in my earlier posts.
DD

Ok, mate I'll follow your tips...Cloud with absorption... Maybe Auralex has better products than Vicoustic and I can get them in Barcelona easily...Could u recomend me something for the cloud and bass traps?

[DanDan]

ice, I have no way of comparing the products. However, I do like the look of the Vicoustic stuff on the website. Chances are that it is at least as good as Auralex. I suggest you go with whichever is cheaper, so that you can use more. The Vicoustic Cinema panels might be good for the cloud. Auralex Sonofiber, two deep, might make a good cloud. Get something that is not floppy so that you can leave an airgap above it. It might be worth considering the easy to install HF MiniTraps or GIK panels for your cloud.
Bass traps- buy whatever will fit into the spaces you have available. Get as much as you can. If this doesn't work out, DIY works just as well. Plenty of construction details at studiotips.com
DD