Please give me the advice about acoustic in my small room.

[Ishi]

Hello, everyone.
I am a beginner of recording.

I have a One AKG C414 B-XLS One Shure SM57.
I record in the small room (8.5*8.5*7.9 ft).
I mainly record vocal, an acoustic guitar, and a guitar cab.
And, I sometimes record contrabass.

I had not treated acoustic in the room until now.
Please let me know what should be done for acoustic in my room.

[boggy]

There aren't too much to do with your acoustics, because your room is very, very small. There isnt space for any treatment there (all treatments tend to make rooms even smaller)

Best way is to find a bigger room.

regards

boggy

[Aaron W]

Hi Ishi,

Try something like one of these products:

Real traps Minigobo or GIK screen panel.

Or if you're handy make one with some 703 fiberglass or rockwool in a pine frame. There a many great DIY threads on the forum to help you design and build your own panels.

That's what I'm doing for my own room...which is only 3' longer than your room.

Check it out here.

Cheers,

Aaron

[Glenn Kuras]

wow that room is pretty darn small and darn near a cube (not a good thing). The best you can do is trap as many corners as possible. I like the idea of something like the screen panel that Aaron W pointed out.

[skiltrip]

Close mic and don't bother trying to get any room sound. With a room that small, personally, I'd try to deaden it using acoustic insulation panels. You might not need a lot to just cut down the reflections. You're never going to tweak it perfectly, being as small as it is, but you can just go for deadening the space.

I don't claim to be a room treatment expert by any means, but I have a relatively small room that's also a cube (11.5x11.5x8.0), and it's worked well for me.

I'd say use dynamic mics when you can for vocals, and close mic acoustic by micing the wood instead of the usual 12" out. If you want to do the old "aimed at the 12th fret placement" there's no harm getting in a little closer, like 3" or so give or take. Results will obviously vary depending on your guitar, what you're playing, and how you're playing it.

[Ishi]

Thank you, everyone.
I was able to get useful advices.
I would like to get the big room in the future.
However, I do my best now in the small room.

Is deadening proper about the small room?

I consider the purchase of the ribbon microphone.
Doesn't my room have trouble in use of a ribbon microphone?


More, there is a question.
As shown in a figure, the room of the same size is next to my room.
A wall cannot be broken although a sliding door can be removed.
Does acoustic become well when I remove a sliding door?
Or isn't there any big difference?

[Aaron W]

Hi Ishi,

The longer room would probably be better (if you we mixing and recording with things oriented the longest way - e.g. your back to the open sliding doors).

You'd probably have to carefully treat the corner by the sliding door as well as some of the "back" wall in the adjacent room.

Just so you know: I'm very new to the room treatment game...so let some members with high experience weigh in and/or correct these ideas.

What I have used though are ribbon mics. You may consider renting a ribbon first to hear it in your room and to check your preamps ability to give the ribbon enough gain.

Also consider a cardioid ribbon such as Beyerdynamic M160 & M260. I've tried the M260 and found it to perform well in rooms that were poorly treated.

If you are on a tight budget and really want a ribbon the Golden Age R1 active ribbon can be used on preamps without high gain. I just bought one to try out for when my room is completed.

Cheers,

Aaron

[Glenn Kuras]

Is deadening proper about the small room?

I hate that term as it comes across that you would plaster 2" panels everywhere which would absorb mids and high end but the low end is swimming in the room. It gives a very icky (very technical term ) feeling in the room. The goal is to absorb ALL the frequencies, including low end which is why you need bass trapping and for that room A LOT of it as the lows and mids are going to be the biggest problems.

[joedoc]

Originally Posted by Ishi

Thank you, everyone.
I was able to get useful advices.
I would like to get the big room in the future.
However, I do my best now in the small room.

Is deadening proper about the small room?

I consider the purchase of the ribbon microphone.
Doesn't my room have trouble in use of a ribbon microphone?


More, there is a question.
As shown in a figure, the room of the same size is next to my room.
A wall cannot be broken although a sliding door can be removed.
Does acoustic become well when I remove a sliding door?
Or isn't there any big difference?

Yes, "deadening", meaning adding lots of broadband absorbers, is the best way to go.

I'd start off by treating one each of the parallel facing walls to help control reflections. If you just do one wall, you'll trade off between proper treatment and losing too much space!

Bass trapping the corners is a good idea too, as mentioned above.

By connecting with another room you are in essence creating a larger room. You'll still have some of the inherent problems of the corners on all sides of that door, but it will still be an improvement.

Get some of the worst reflections under control, and keep making music!

[Ishi]

I really appreciate all kind assistance.

From all advice and a useful thread, I made the plan, as shown in a figure.

Is there any enough number of absorbers?
Is the size of an absorber small?
Isn't a problem in placement of vocal and a microphone again?

I need to apply a trial-and-error method about these.
But, I would like to know an acoustic standard before that.

Postscript
The absorber which I consider is the fiberglass of 2pcf.
Is there any enough density of an absorber?

[joedoc]

Hi,

It's a start, but I'd guess you'll need quite a bit more than that for effective absorption, especially in the corners...

Where are you located? Is it possible to get Rockwool insulation where you are? That's the most effective solution for it's rather cheap price. A few packages will get you started, and I think that once you hear the difference it makes, you'll have an idea of whether you need more, and how much more.

cheers

joe

[Ishi]

Thank you, micbrowser2010.
I live in the country in Japan.

In the result of my having searched, the following rock wool was able to buy at a low price.

Density = 3.5pcf
Size = 24x36x2 "

The price of this is 100$ or so per 8 sheets.

[Ishi]

Hello, everyone.

I was planning treating acoustic in the room using Bass Trap.
However, when the ceiling and wall of the room were inspected, it turned out that they are very weak.
Because an earthquake occurred frequently in Japan, I gave up Bass Trap.

I consider the screen panel learned from Aaron W now.
I am going to make the thing similar to the screen panel (DIY).

I mainly record vocal, an acoustic guitar, and a guitar cab.
And, I sometimes record contrabass.
More, I consider introduction of the ribbon microphone.

I can get the following rock wool.
Density = 3.5pcf
Size = 24x36x2 "

When two sheets of this rock wool are piled up and it is made the thickness of 4'', can bass also be absorbed?
Or may the thickness of 2'' be OK?

[Aaron W]

Hi Ishi,

Everything I've read on the forums suggests to go as thick as possible = 4' or 6" thick for taming bass.

My room is nearly complete (8 x 13.5 ft)...it is not much larger than your space...I currently have 8 panels floor to ceiling and plan on building 8 more smaller panels to hang on the walls. I will post pictures when it is set up - hopefully next week.

I too hope to use ribbon microphones...so this is why I'm taking the time to try to treat the room well. Ribbon mics seem to easily reveal poor acoustics (the exception possibly the Beyer M160 & M260 which are hypercardioid....so they pick up a lot less of the room).

If you want to pm me sometime in the future I will record my ribbon in the room and email it to you for a sample.

You mentioned that the rockwool came in bags with eight pieces. This would be ideal to build 4 panels at 4" deep.

Make the frames from 1x4 pine (reinforce the corners & maybe add a middle strut on the back).

You'd end up with two hinged panels that you could place in a semi-circle around your microphone for a start. The panels could fold flat and be stored against the wall.

If this is successful then you may be able to build a few more in the future.

There are a few options for building hanging basstraps that are light weight.

1) Just cover the insulation in cloth and hang on the wall...or use a commercially available product like this. Just note that these would probably suit ridgid fiberglass the best...and may not work as well with soft insulation.

2) Frame the insulation with lightweight aluminium studs (check the forums for designs)

3) Just use a lightweight backing frame such as this guy uses on youtube.

Good luck....post pictures when you're done.

Cheers,

Aaron

[Ishi]

Hello, Aaron W.
Thank you for the detailed advice.

I am looking forward to listening to record with your ribbon microphone.
Regrettably, I was not able to refer to the link to your YouTube.

If the problem of weight is solved, I will be able to install a trap also in a wall.
However, the ceiling is difficult.

Good luck.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Ishi

Hello, everyone.

I was planning treating acoustic in the room using Bass Trap.
However, when the ceiling and wall of the room were inspected, it turned out that they are very weak.
Because an earthquake occurred frequently in Japan, I gave up Bass Trap.

I consider the screen panel learned from Aaron W now.
I am going to make the thing similar to the screen panel (DIY).

I mainly record vocal, an acoustic guitar, and a guitar cab.
And, I sometimes record contrabass.
More, I consider introduction of the ribbon microphone.

I can get the following rock wool.
Density = 3.5pcf
Size = 24x36x2 "

When two sheets of this rock wool are piled up and it is made the thickness of 4'', can bass also be absorbed?
Or may the thickness of 2'' be OK?

Good deal on building the screens. We have been getting a lot of positive feed back on them so they should work well for you.

[Aaron W]

Hi Ishi,

Here are some pictures of my little hobby studio room.

The floor to ceiling traps are just wedged into place with pine block boxes and cedar shims....I will add some "L" brackets later to make sure they won't move.

It is important to note that the walls and or ceiling don't actually have to hold or support the traps as they are free standing - something which might work in your room.

Sorry about the youtube link - I tried to fix it but no luck. Just search youtube for bass traps.

Good luck with your build,

Aaron

[tonio]

Originally Posted by Ishi

Hello, everyone.

I was planning treating acoustic in the room using Bass Trap.
However, when the ceiling and wall of the room were inspected, it turned out that they are very weak.
Because an earthquake occurred frequently in Japan, I gave up Bass Trap.

I consider the screen panel learned from Aaron W now.
I am going to make the thing similar to the screen panel (DIY).

I mainly record vocal, an acoustic guitar, and a guitar cab.
And, I sometimes record contrabass.
More, I consider introduction of the ribbon microphone.

I can get the following rock wool.
Density = 3.5pcf
Size = 24x36x2 "

When two sheets of this rock wool are piled up and it is made the thickness of 4'', can bass also be absorbed?
Or may the thickness of 2'' be OK?

I am familiar with construction in Japan, what was the specific outcome of the inspection - other than " weak ceiling, and walls"???
A 2x4' cloud - for the ceiling only weighs like as guess 5lbs-2kgs?? depending on the density of insulation & framing material.

In small rooms, the clouds do sooo much, you would be surprised.

Are you in Tokyo area or inaka?

T

[Ishi]

Thank you for all.

I went to the home center and got the catalog today.
The absorption coefficient of Japanese-made glass wool and rock wool was shown in the catalog.
Products with a high absorption coefficient are shown below.

Glass wool A
Size: 2x3 feet
Thickness: 4 "
Density: 2pcf ≒ 32kg
Absorption coefficient (air layer = 0)
125hz : 0.43
160hz : 0.61
200hz : 0.89
250hz : 1.00
Unit price (per sheet): 15 or so dollars

Rock wool B
Size: 2x3 feet
Thickness: 4 "
Density: 3.75pcf ≒ 60kg
Absorption coefficient (air layer = 0)
125hz : 0.40
160hz : 0.66
200hz : 0.86
250hz : 1.18
Unit price (per sheet): 25 or so dollars

It seems that the absorption coefficient of the low frequency in these products is inferior to 703 and 705.
I think that the correlativity of density and an absorption coefficient was not watched from the data of the catalog.
However, in high density (more than 10pcf ≒ 160kg), the tendency for an absorption coefficient to be a little high was watched.

I live in INAKA (countryside) of Japan.
A house is a rental.
The ceiling is covered with the decorative sheet (5 or so mm).
A pillar cannot be watched because it cannot access to an attic.
From these reasons, I thought that it was difficult for a ceiling to hang an absorption plate.

I consider buying the cheaper glass wool A.
And because it is lighter, this can be hung also on the ceiling, if it thinks out.

I put together eight panels and am planning making of a screen panel (thickness: 4 ").
I think a screen panel as it is better to make two sets.
Is it more effective to set the same screen panel also as the back in addition to a front panel?

I have two plans, A and B, as shown in a figure.
Which is more effective?

Or should I increase Bass Traps more?

[Glenn Kuras]

I put together eight panels and am planning making of a screen panel (thickness: 4 ").
I think a screen panel as it is better to make two sets.
It is more effective to set a screen panel also to the back

You can use them in the back of the room if that is what you are asking.

[tonio]

Originally Posted by Ishi

I live in INAKA (countryside) of Japan.
A house is a rental.
The ceiling is covered with the decorative sheet (5 or so mm).
A pillar cannot be watched because it cannot access to an attic.
From these reasons, I thought that it was difficult for a ceiling to hang an absorption plate.

Even older houses in inaka, there are ceiling beams. The smallest I've seen are 2x2" beams w/ luan type ply or plaster type covering. If you can get a stud finder, that should help you find the beams to attach the cloud. If not you may have to find out what width the beams are and measure .

I have an old house that is plaster over beams. I can't use drywall anchors since the plaster just crumbles. I had to find the beams by measuring and testing with a small nail then figured the center points between the beams.

T

[Ishi]

Thank you Glenn.

I was mistaken in English grammar.
I wanted to know the following things.

I put together eight panels and am planning making of a screen panel (thickness: 4 ").
I think a screen panel as it is better to make two sets.
Is it more effective to set the same screen panel also as the back in addition to a front panel?

More, I want advice.
Which considers that you are better about the plan A and the plan B?

[Ishi]

Hello, tonio.
Thank you for the precious advices.

Wow! Stud finder!
What a great tool that is!