Studio layout for best acoustics??

[Kiwi Audio]

I've been doing a ton of research on acoustics and bass traps and the likes the last few weeks. I've rearranged my control room 3 times in the last month searching for the best sound. I'm downloading fuzz measure and searching for a mic i can use to measure the room once over this next week.

I've made superchunk traps for the corners which are 17" x 17" x 25" and 6 2'x4'x6" bass traps. I'm looking for help in figuring out the room nodes in my room, its mostly a rectangle, but has a small jut out where the entrance door is. Below is a picture of my setup with a ton of dimensions on it. The basic measurements of my room are 15' long x 12.5' wide by 7'5" height. Any help you I can get is greatly appreciated!

In addition to the bass traps, I also was given some absorbers that were taken out of a high school gymnasium. It looks like this is 1" fiberglass on the back of them and the front looks like a bunch of string glued together. In all they are 2" thick. Will this stuff work for RFZ points? or should I use some of the bass traps on the walls instead.

The best part about this room is I can do anything to it. It's an extra room in the house that I had devoted to the studio before my wife moved in so she has come to accept that the room will be forever my workplace. For this reason I can do anything to it. If I need to build walls to change the dimensions I can, as I keep as little stuff in this room as possible. Just the essentials for mixing.

Where I am currently sitting I can tell there is a huge null in low end. If i stand up out of the chair I get hit with all this bass, but it sounds more natural while standing (and mixes done while standing seem to translate better to other systems). My monitors (tweeters) are 55" off the ground and aimed down at a slight degree. I tried to keep them from being centered vertically, and also read somewhere to try and get them at 38% from the ceiling, so I achieved that. There is a sub centered between the 2 monitors behind the console desk. The mix position is also 62% from the front wall (which i read on a post in this forum that was second best to the 38%). In order to get to 38% the monitors would have to be right on the front wall, and then the mix position would be very close to 50% of the room (unless I were to put the monitors on top of the meterbridge...for some reason this desk is very deep). I have also tried to keep symmetry the best I could (i've seen people say this is good, and seen people say this is bad).

Again I'm willing to do anything, and the wife has told me I'm allowed to do anything. However, 3 of the 4 walls are "outside" walls. the 3 with windows look into my yard.

Please Help!!!!

-Thanks!!!

[Glenn Kuras]

In addition to the bass traps, I also was given some absorbers that were taken out of a high school gymnasium. It looks like this is 1" fiberglass on the back of them and the front looks like a bunch of string glued together. In all they are 2" thick. Will this stuff work for RFZ points? or should I use some of the bass traps on the walls instead.

Hard to say without seeing the lab reports on them. Stand in front of the panel (couple inches) and speak into it. If you can hear any of your voice coming back to you then they will not work. Not a real scientific test but might tell you if they are absorbing the high end, which you need in early reflection points.

Where I am currently sitting I can tell there is a huge null in low end. If i stand up out of the chair I get hit with all this bass, but it sounds more natural while standing (and mixes done while standing seem to translate better to other systems). .

Sound like you need absorption on the ceiling. Go with 4" for the cloud (the early reflection point on the ceiling)

As far as where you are sitting. If that is the best you can do then move forward and start treading the room. From your layout I would recommend THICK absorption (I like 6") behind here you sit. Maybe cover a 4x4 area to start.

[PaulP]

Testing the room would be helpful. From the height of your ceiling you
should have a nice null around 150 hz in the middle vertically, probably
quite near your head when seated. Not deep bass but a frequency used
by just about every instrument.

As Glenn says a cloud should help, both for reflections and reducing the
effect of the vertical mode.

Your room height is exactly twice your length which is not good as it
doubles your troubles with the modes. Shortening the length to 13'7"
would be the best you could do.

Paul P

[Glenn Kuras]

Testing the room would be helpful.

Room EQ Wizard Home Page
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[Kiwi Audio]

Thanks for the replies!

Just tried speaking into these "sound panels" and it sounds like they do nothing. I'll be taking those out to the garage and putting them on the curb next week. I will also start on the cloud this week. With where the mix position is currently, I have to remove a ceiling fan in order for the cloud to cover the needed area. That ceiling fan is also the only source of light (besides the windows during the day) so I'll have to get creative with some lighting effects...which is always a plus.

Do you think I'm setup in the best spot? I was wondering, since the mix position isn't symmetrical in the room (due to the jut out by the door), does that effect anything? Would it be better to turn all my gear 180 degrees? but then the speakers wouldn't be symmetrical to the side walls. Or if I pushed the speakers up against the front wall, I would then be sitting 41% into the room or right around there. Is that to close to the 50%?

Am I on track with starting with my monitors 38% from the ceiling? Again I'm trying to avoid the 50% here as well.

Then as far as monitors/sub go...I'd really like to pick up a new set and do away with the sub, but I think if I get the acoustics under control first I may not have to. Is there any benefit to raising the sub off the floor? right now it's about 3" off the ground, sitting on some extra OC705 I had wrapped in fabric, then I have sorbothane and granite pieces under the spikes. I also have the monitors on top of sorbothane and mopads (which I hate but help with the stands I currently have). I plan on making some speaker stands (probably the same time i make the cloud) out of MDF, sand, and cinder blocks...but before I get there I want to make sure the height is good.

Thanks!!

[avare]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Audio

Am I on track with starting with my monitors 38% from the ceiling? Again I'm trying to avoid the 50% here as well.

Vertically monitors go with the acoustic center at ear height. This is ~120 cm (4 feet).

Andre

[PaulP]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Audio

I was wondering, since the mix position isn't symmetrical in the room (due to the jut out by the door), does that effect anything? Would it be better to turn all my gear 180 degrees? but then the speakers wouldn't be symmetrical to the side walls. Or if I pushed the speakers up against the front wall, I would then be sitting 41% into the room or right around there. Is that to close to the 50%?

I believe what's most important for symmetry is the part of the room that's
in front of you. Any differences on the sides will affect the imaging since
the reflections from there are close in time to the source. What happens
behind you comes later and has less effect.

Your desk looks awfully deep. There will be reflections off that which could
be a problem.

Paul P

[datune]

Hey,

I think you may have mixed up the part with the 38% rule.

Have a look at Ethans site which explains really well how to setup your room:

RealTraps - How To Set Up a Room

THE 38 PERCENT RULE
The placement method used here is based on the "38 percent rule" which theorizes that the best listening position is 38 percent into the length of the room, when measured from either the front or rear wall. This offers the best compromise of peaks versus nulls for any given room size. For 2-channel listening you'll get the flattest low frequency response by sitting 38 percent of the way back from the front wall. However, this is not practical in many home theaters, especially those with large screens, because that puts you too close to the screen. Fortunately, you can get the same benefit by sitting 38 percent of the room length when measured from the rear wall.
Please understand that 38% is one theoretical best location to begin measurements, but it may not end up the best place to sit due to other factors - wall properties, speaker location, speaker type, furnishings in the room, and a host of other conditions that can affect frequency response. The only way to know which location really is most flat is to measure the low frequency response at high resolution using software such as ETF, FuzzMeasure, or Room EQ Wizard.

[Kiwi Audio]

Originally Posted by datune

Hey,

I think you may have mixed up the part with the 38% rule.

Have a look at Ethans site which explains really well how to setup your room:

RealTraps - How To Set Up a Room

I read through that a while back, but due to the depth of my desk (46") I would have to put the speakers right up against the wall and then I would still be around 45% into the room. I had read a post a few days ago, that I think Glenn had posted saying that 62% would be the next best spot.

[Kiwi Audio]

Originally Posted by PaulP

I believe what's most important for symmetry is the part of the room that's
in front of you. Any differences on the sides will affect the imaging since
the reflections from there are close in time to the source. What happens
behind you comes later and has less effect.

Your desk looks awfully deep. There will be reflections off that which could
be a problem.

Paul P

My question about this is am I to close to the jut out that's to the left of the mix position? see the image in the first post. Im thinking maybe if I bring the monitors and desk all the way to the front wall I can sit in between the 2 side walls easier...but then I have to deal with the speaker boundary effects...

In mixing today I did take 2 bass traps ( 2' x 4' x 6") and put them about a foot off the rear wall behind the mix position. These tightened up the low end a bit. I also put one of these under the console on the floor. This seemed to help some with the vertical null I was having last night.

[Kiwi Audio]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Room EQ Wizard Home Page
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Thanks for the link...I'm working on figuring out how all this works with my setup and calibration. I found a radio shack SPL meter in my toolbox, and I'm working on getting this setup with Room EQ wizard on my macbook pro. I'll post test results once I get it all figured out.

[Kiwi Audio]

Originally Posted by PaulP

Your desk looks awfully deep. There will be reflections off that which could
be a problem.

Paul P

would it be better for me to put the monitors on the meter bridge than to have on the stands with the depth of this desk? it's an argosy console 700 series desk that has about a foot behind the meter bridge for monitors to sit on. what about building small stands that fit on top of the meter bridge...would this help in eliminating comb filtering off the console? or is my best bet to keep them on stands behind?

[PaulP]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Audio

My question about this is am I to close to the jut out that's to the left of the mix position? see the image in the first post. Im thinking maybe if I bring the monitors and desk all the way to the front wall I can sit in between the 2 side walls easier...but then I have to deal with the speaker boundary effects...

The side reflections will happen in front of the corner so you should be ok.
The room widening out behind you will help in dispersing the sound. Looks
like your left side early reflection will end up in the window so you'll need an
absorber on a stand to match the one you'll put on the right.

If you do put your monitors up on the desk, which I think is common practice,
you could move much closer to the front wall and maybe end up with the
left reflection point on the wall instead of the window.

Paul P

[Kiwi Audio]

Can anyone tell me if there is any benefit to raising a sub off the floor?

[PaulP]

Originally Posted by PaulP

(I wrote)
Testing the room would be helpful. From the height of your ceiling you
should have a nice null around 150 hz in the middle vertically, probably
quite near your head when seated.

I'm near the end of my second read of Master Handbook of Acoustics and
came across some info this morning showing the above to be in error.

At the mode frequency (speed of sound/twice the length) there will be a
null in the center of the room (a plane perpendicular to the direction of
measurement). For a height of 7'5" the mode is 76 hz and at that frequency
there will be a null everywhere in the room at a height of 3'8". But there
will also be a peak at twice that frequency 152 hz followed by a another
null at 228 hz, another peak at 304 hz and so on at multiples of 76Hz.

See the following excerpt from the book :

Two wall resonance

(click on the blue arrow to expand the box, then scroll up bit)

At the walls, or in the above case at the floor and ceiling, the mode and
all its multiples are peaks, which is why that's a good place to put absorption.
Corners have two walls coming together so they're even better spots as
you can affect two modes at the same time.

Paul P

[Kiwi Audio]

I started my first read thru of masters handbook last week. in the listening position, my head is right about 3'8". room modes are starting to make a lot of sense to me. but in a rectangular room, whats the best way of getting them toned down? cloud on the ceiling? or bass traps at that height on all walls surrounding the mix position?