ultratouch cotton users? different densities?

[newpollution]

Has anyone here used ultratouch cotton for bass traps before? Are there different desnsities available or do you just get as thick as you can afford?

Thanks for any info.

[tINY]

I think it's all the same stuff in different thicknesses.

Like I said before, it's floppier than clown shoes - plan on good framing.




-tINY

[audiothings]

strange... there is a comparison file on their website which says that ultratouch has "superior acoustic properties" to fiberglass. Wonder what they mean...

[tINY]

Sounds like marketing based on the TL compaired to low-density fiberglass rolls...



-tINY

[foxfyr]

I might suggest you compare products based upon price and performance and go with the one that best suits your criteria...whatever they may ultimately be.

The Ultra-touch material submittal (spec) sheet can be found here: http://www.bondedlogic.com/documents..._Submittal.pdf

The mass of the product would suggest that it would make a good acoustic absorber.

-------------------------------------

I have no gripe with the product itself, but I do find their posturing of the product against fiberglass misleading - and hence this addendum...

I don't know if the 'green' aspect so frequently touted about this product is what is attracting you - and if it is not, please feel free to skip the rest of this...But if it is, you owe it to yourself to look at the entire picture - simply as the marketing of the product does not present this objectively.

And you are of course free to make any decision, for whatever reason, you choose!

But before you jump on the emotional green bandwagon (if this plays a role), please look at the entire picture. Many things play a role in something being 'green' - and not simply the base material. Transportation, manufacturing processes, materials, handling/exposure risks, etc...to name but a few.

And the pictures of babies and small children laying on it, pressing it to their face, and helping their dad to install it without any protective clothing are completely irresponsible.

The material is heavily treated with borates in order to mitigate insect infestation and mold. You do not want to be breathing airborne fibers with this treatment nor handling it with exposed skin - as is substantiated by the usage requirements that are essentially identical to fiberglass.

You are not concerned with its moisture absorption or settling qualities as one would were it being used for thermal insulation, but they are inferior to fiberglass there too.

Oh, and as the base material is important to some, fiberglass is manufactured from highly endangered silica - sand. And it likewise available without the ~5% binder, if this is a concern. Oh, and save the neoprenes and naughas too! ;-))

I am all for exploring more alternative materials for whatever reason might make them a more appropriate choice. Just explore all of the facts and make good judgments based upon the objective factors, and not simply the emotion lead-in of the marketing and home show hype that seems to be so trendy and associated with so many products now days.

Have fun.

[tINY]

The non-itchyness is a big factor for some of us whimps. That said, it has very nice qualities for absorbing bass frequencies.

If you can deal with the floppiness, it's nice for corner traps.



-tINY

[foxfyr]

I haven't had the opportunity to run about and locate a local source.

So if someone has the wherewithal and the opportunity, if they can post the costs relative to, say, OC703 or 705, or Roxul, it would be appreciated.

A cheap, open mesh support like chicken wire might work well for support.

[newpollution]

Thanks for the info tiny.

A hardware store around here says they carry an insulation material equivalent to ultratouch. They gave me these numbers/variables:

R13-16" 106.07sf bdl is 68.81
R13-24" 126.63sf bdl is 80.00
R19-16" 53.04sf bdl is 49.29
R19-24" 63.32sf bdl is 56.71
R21-16" 53.04sf bdl is 54.75
R30-16' 54.20sf bdl is 78.06
R30-24" 64.64sf bdl is 90.97

I'm totally new to buying these types of materials and I'm not even sure what that's all referring to. I guess those are prices. What are the different R numbers?

foxfyr: yeah, definitely a lot of marketing crap. I'd like to know more about this stuff though. Where did you get your information about the harmful stuff it's treated with? I'd definitely be curious to check that out. My main concerns have to do with avoiding harmful breathing environments/substances. I have some health issues and I'm trying not to make anything worse than it already is.

[foxfyr]

I agree, I have no negative issues with the use of the material, noting the handling practical characteristics mentioned above; just the hype surrounding it.

As far as the use of borates, their site mentions it (I think it may also be on their spec sheet for which the link is provided above...).

Borates (borax, boric acid) are typically used for cellulose and other 'organic' materials to control mold and insect infestation, etc.

While not as noxious as some treatments, borates are definitely not something you want your kids, pets and skin exposed. And as such, while the dust is not as physically irritating as fiberglass, you do want to follow the basic usage procedures to minimize exposure by wearing a basic clothing barrier and gloves and a respirator/mask for potential particulate/dust inhalation - similar to fiberglass.

Here is one 'basic' link addressing issues with borates. Mind you, my intent is Not to play Chicken Little - I simply have issues with the many marketing brochures showing babies and little kids laying on it and handling it without any protective clothing or basic precautions being taken...

Boric acid and borates. | Cox, C. | Journal of Pesticide Reform | NorthWest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides (NCAP)

In other words, it seems that the informed 'middle ground' between ignore-ance and over-reaction, and employing prudent and reasonable due diligence while handling it, would be a smart way to go. And don't let your kids play in it!

[tINY]

http://www.bondedlogic.com/documents...ouch_broch.pdf

From the table on the ultra-touch sheet, You'll see that the R-value is related to the thickness. Locally, I got a quote a few weeks back on the highlighted one (54ft^2 of R19) for $24.



-tINY

[tINY]

Originally Posted by foxfyr

In other words, it seems that the informed 'middle ground' between ignore-ance and over-reaction, and employing prudent and reasonable due diligence while handling it, would be a smart way to go. And don't let your kids play in it!

While chronic exposure to it (hanging insulation every day for months on end) and infants/toddlers may be an issue, I don't think occasional exposure to 10mg/m^3 is going to be much to worry about.

I find the MSDS precautions to be way overboard if you don't expose yourself to it all the time - I'd love to see the write up on stuff you come in contact with on a typical camping trip in the woods....




-tINY

[foxfyr]

The irony is that data sheet cited was prepared by a group advocating the use of alternative products to the more commonly used toxic treatments.


You pay your money and you take your chances. Personally I don't care what anyone does regarding choices they make that only affect themselves...as long as they assume Full responsibility for their choices and do not then choose to play the victim.

[newpollution]

Thanks for the information both you! Much appreciated.

[jwl]

All else being equal, I'll take Ultratouch over fluffy fiberglass every time. It's good in corners if you know any clown shoe cobblers.

[audiothings]

nothing to do with the conversation at hand, but the native would sure feel grateful to understand "clown shoe cobblers"...

regards,

[tINY]

There was a post saying that ultratouch is floppier than clown shoes... much less ridgid than OC703 or 4pcf rockwool.



-tINY

[quincyg]

any ideas on a good facing to hold ultratouch in place. I am thinking maybe a perforated board over the ultratouch under the fabric might work.

[tINY]

Get some 1/2x3 inch poplar and run a board on each side and in the middle. Then put in boards horizontal about every 16-24".

You can stuff it into corners pretty well, so you don't have to make everything square and exactly 3 1/2 inches wide....




-tINY

[spm_gl]

On the topic of "green" materials, we used hemp wool in the ceiling of our tracking room. Works very well, but the room smelt like a rabbit hutch for weeks.

[9th Ward Records]

thanks tIny for the great advise

[rothmusic]

Originally Posted by newpollution

Has anyone here used ultratouch cotton for bass traps before? Are there different desnsities available or do you just get as thick as you can afford?

Thanks for any info.

R-13 3.5 inch and R-19 5.5 inch are the only two that have acoustical testing data.

For a Bass Trap, we used R-13, and two layers.