Bigger RFZ

[ciro]

Hi!

My room has 2'X4' x 4" mineral wool broadband placed (vertically) centered between me and monitors in the L/R RFZ (1 per side, distance mixing position/monitors is ~4,5').

Beside my position (and panels, for sure), I have no treatment and I´m planning more 2 4" panels (one each side).

Some problem if I put a membrane on these (like paper/cardboard - which I´m using on all "non RFZ" I have)or they must be broadband too (creating a "bigger RFZ"?)

*Reason: my room is ever on the limit of "dead"...

Thanks!

Ciro

[Glenn Kuras]

Any time you are using a panel for a early reflection point it should not have any kind of FRK on it.

Glenn

[ciro]

I just thought the side RFZ was limited to a small point (at least in a small room) in the area between monitors and mixing position.
Well, If area beside my position is a reflection point too, I´ll make the panels only with fabric and see what happens with "liveness".

Thanks, Glenn!

Ciro

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by ciro

If area beside my position is a reflection point too

Yes, if the wall is closer than ten feet behind you, mid/high frequency reflections from that wall are considered early and need to be absorbed.

--Ethan

[ciro]

Hi Ethan:

Sorry If my post is kinda confuzed or my bad english, I asked about side walls points near my mix position.

About my rear wall (6,5' behind mix position) it has a good amount of treatment/RFZ thumbsup

Thanks!

Ciro

[Glenn Kuras]

Well then the 10' still applies.

I just thought the side RFZ was limited to a small point (at least in a small room) in the area between monitors and mixing position.

Well it does have a small point, but you also move your head around which is part of the reason for making a bigger RFZ.

Glenn

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by ciro

Sorry If my post is kinda confuzed or my bad english, I asked about side walls points near my mix position.

No, your English is fine. It was my fault. You wrote beside and I read behind.

Directly beside you is not usually as reflection point, so treatment there is not needed. Do you know the mirror trick? More here:

Early Reflections
How to set up a room

--Ethan

[Glenn Kuras]

The mirror trick:

Sit in your mix spot and have a friend take a mirror and run it along each wall. Where ever you can see the speaker is where you want absorption.

Thought I would save you some hunting.

[ciro]

Glenn and Ethan;

All I have to do is thank you for the attention and precious information here and on Real Traps and GIK website.

In fact, in my room,these are basically the only wall points at ear level(wider than 2') not treated yet.Then , will be 20 traps

My RFZ (broadband/only fabric) side panels are placed based on the "mirror technique", I just wanted to be sure that this "directly beside" side panels could be "paper/cardboard faced".

I tried placing some panels I temporalily took out from rear wall...and these "cardboard faced" panels seems works and improve bass decay of width mode - as expected- ~120 and 240 principally,and improves the stereo image even more
Things are going pretty well here, just want to improve all I can...


Ciro

[ciro]

News:
I ended using a "semi-breathable" fabric (but no paper or cardboard faced) for my "beside mix position" panels.
Still absorbing more mids than a cardboad/FRK (at least I guess,"ear comparison") and reflecting some higs.And the room "balance" still fine and image a bit better.
I´m satisfied with the result.

Thanks, Ethan and Glenn! (again...)

Ciro

[jwl]

Another thing you can do, if the room is borderline too dead and you want a bigger RFZ is to angle your side absorbers like this:

This way, the engineer as well as someone standing behind the engineer will get a solid RFZ.

[ciro]

Hi, jwl , thanks for the gif and suggestion!

I ask more about the need of a "bigger(side)RFZ", and after putting the new panels I perceived a yet better stage (maybe a side effect of having a bit less parallel reflexive surfaces too,who knows)

The fact is that today I mixed with 2 other people in the room and seems it works well.

Now are 2 2x4 panels (RFZ and side of mix position) centered at ear level, I think it´s covering a good area (for a small room) similar to the one you suggest

Ciro

[Weasel9992]

It's always a challenge to get a mix position as wide as possible, and how you go about doing that is different for different rooms. I'm glad it worked for you though!

Frank

[ciro]

Exactly, Frank, and probably if had a hard floor (room is carpeted) I´d go for more "total" absorption for the sides.
Well, the basic RFZ points still broadband.
(But, serious, this "liveness" balance was a real chalenge (at least here) after a good amount of traps).

Ciro

[Glenn Kuras]

Another thing you can do, if the room is borderline too dead and you want a bigger RFZ is to angle your side absorbers like this:

I am not to crazy about this idea for many reasons, but the main one is you are making the engineers RFZ even smaller. Also if adding 1 more panel to each side (and ceiling) is going to make the room dead then I would think you have much bigger problems going on.

[ciro]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Also if adding 1 more panel to each side (and ceiling) is going to make the room dead then I would think you have much bigger problems going on.

Great point (again) Glenn ...

My mistake probably, expecting too much/perfect sound for a 11,5 x 9,5 (carpeted) room. I did all I could in terms of maitaining the liveness ("fabric" for only 4 RFZ panels) and the other 14 are cardboard faced.

In the end, everything is fine (for that size, I suppose),
frequency response, image (not 100% probably, but definitelly good), waterfalls, accuracy to perceive every tiny changes on delays, reverbs ...

Ciro

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by ciro

Great point (again) Glenn ...

My mistake probably, expecting too much/perfect sound for a 11,5 x 9,5 (carpeted) room. I did all I could in terms of maitaining the liveness ("fabric" for only 4 RFZ panels) and the other 14 are cardboard faced.

In the end, everything is fine (for that size, I suppose),
frequency response, image (not 100% probably, but definitelly good), waterfalls, accuracy to perceive every tiny changes on delays, reverbs ...

Ciro

Well it sounds like to me your SET!!! Which btw you are ahead of most studios by light year!!!

[jwl]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

I am not to crazy about this idea for many reasons, but the main one is you are making the engineers RFZ even smaller.

How does angling the panel make the RFZ smaller? It simply changes its location, possibly beneficially.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by jwl

How does angling the panel make the RFZ smaller? It simply changes its location, possibly beneficially.

The reason is if it is horizontal you can move your head back and forward. Not sure about you but I find my self moving when I mix. The bottom line is I really like a 4x4 area covered if possible.

[jwl]

Definitely a 4x4 area is best, unless your room is already too dead.

But angling the trap like that is very effective, don't forget the trap is 2' tall so there is plenty of "wiggle room" inside the RFZ if you place them right. It also allows you to stand up and stretch your legs, and still get a RFZ.

[Glenn Kuras]

But angling the trap like that is very effective, don't forget the trap is 2' tall so there is plenty of "wiggle room" inside the RFZ if you place them right. It also allows you to stand up and stretch your legs, and still get a RFZ

Sorry JWL I would rather have a larger zone when sitting then have a standing area that really the bass/mids will change so much that you really will not be able to judge anything anyways. Remember moving that far from the mix spot will change all kind of things. Even in the best of rooms.

[jwl]

I think we're saying similar things, though it seems like you are ever the contrarian lately.

We agree that a larger RFZ is better, up to a point, all else being equal. We always want people to have more and larger treatments, but that's not always possible due to budget or space limitations.

I think if you are limited to a RFZ with one 2x4 panel on each wall, then you should place the panel so that it creates the best RFZ for your space and work methodology. For instance, I know guys who mix standing up much of the time. You should put the RFZ where your head will be most of the time.

The image I posted just shows one clever way to accomplish this, which has worked extremely wall for many of my customers. No need to jump on this one point. In fact I recommend trying it yourself sometime, you'll be surprised how well it works.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by jwl

For instance, I know guys who mix standing up much of the time.

Really? I've been at this for nearly 25 years and aside from live work I've never met one. I've seen plenty of guys who stand right behind the big chair and listen though.

Frank

[jwl]

Eh, it's certainly less common now with DAWs than it was in the old days with no automation, where a mix was a performance. A lot of old school guys are up, moving around, trying to nail the fader moves while grooving to the music.

Point being, I like to have options. Staying in the same spot for an entire mix is maddening.

[ciro]

Originally Posted by jwl

Eh, it's certainly less common now with DAWs than it was in the old days with no automation, where a mix was a performance.

"10 hands" , sometimes...Great (or not so much) memories

[jwl]

Heh, yeah. Nowadays I sit most of the time, but often when I want to step back and listen to the complete song I'm mixing I'll stand up and move around the room while I'm listening, just to see how it sounds in different spots.

[Glenn Kuras]

I think we're saying similar things, though it seems like you are ever the contrarian lately.

???????

Sorry JWL I am just pointing out that a wider area to work in (AT THE SITTING SPOT) is going to be easier. Yes to have the "PRODUCER" or the "BAND EXPERT" stand behind you and be able to point out what is needed (like they really know lol lol lol lol ) could be helpful, but I THINK working on the sweet spot is the best way to go. Hey man if you want to sacrifice RFZ so you can stretch your legs or the above can "give you instructions " so be it. lol lol lol Just remember that if you want to mix by standing sometimes and sitting sometimes you are going to have have a heck of a time getting things right.

Glenn

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by jwl

Heh, yeah. Nowadays I sit most of the time, but often when I want to step back and listen to the complete song I'm mixing I'll stand up and move around the room while I'm listening, just to see how it sounds in different spots.

I think we all do that, but only to rest, not to make final judgments.

[Ethan Winer]

The "sweet spot" in my home studio is about 3 feet behind my chair and standing up. Yes, it's unusual, but I also use my studio as a jam room playing drum loops etc from the big speakers while friends and I play keyboards and guitars and bass. So I got you all beat - my RFZ is 6 feet wide and 8 feet high on both sides.

--Ethan

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

The "sweet spot" in my home studio is about 3 feet behind my chair and standing up. Yes, it's unusual, but I also use my studio as a jam room playing drum loops etc from the big speakers while friends and I play keyboards and guitars and bass. So I got you all beat - my RFZ is 6 feet wide and 8 feet high on both sides.

--Ethan

Exactly my point, thank you Ethan, you want your sweet spot to be as big as possible. Not cut it in half. thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup