Finally I am beginning to understand HOW IMPORTANT ROOM TREATMENT IS!!!

[jimcroisdale]

Hi all,

After asking plenty questions on GS and hemming and hawing for far too long I finally built some bass traps. I have a small room which is nearly square (!!!) and sounded pretty awful.

I made 4 traps 1200mm x 455mm x 200mm from a sheet of ply, rockwool on top and calico to cover. I hung them on the back wall.

THE DIFFERENCE IS AMAZING!!!

I've spent the last week tapping the mouse on the desk just to head (or not hear...) the reflections. It is spooky! It's also addictive - I want MORE! There is room on the ceiling, on the door, and in fact more room on the back wall. I am converted.

WE MUST SPREAD THE WORD!!!

I know Glenn, Frank and Ethan bang on about the importance of room treatment all the time, and people seem to agree, but not with enough enthusiasm - and they are missing out big time! Half the questions I see on here now have me thinking "room treatment will solve that." or "need more bass trapping."

1. How can anyone get a good sound from a condenser mic in an untreated room? You can't. Stick to the SM57.

2. How can anyone think that a sub is a good idea in anything other than a very well treated room? Surely it's not! It will only make problems worse.

3. Why do people bother to discuss the relative merits of different monitors' 'sound', when the room exhibits a +/- 12db swing? You may as well listen through computer speakers and spend the money on ice-cream.

4. 'Mixing' or 'mastering' in an untreated or poorly treated room? Ever wondered why you find it so hard? Treat the room and mixing is soooooo much easier. "Hey, I can actually hear things! It's almost like cheating."

I'm going to get a t-shirt made up that says "Save the world - build bass traps!". Maybe a tattoo. On my face.

Thanks to all the acoustics guys for plugging away at the cause. May the path to hell grow green with the lack of their feet.

And I'd buy shares in Rockwool. 'Cos their stock is about to go up.....

Jim

[Glenn Kuras]

1. How can anyone get a good sound from a condenser mic in an untreated room? You can't. Stick to the SM57.

Testify brother!

2. How can anyone think that a sub is a good idea in anything other than a very well treated room? Surely it's not! It will only make problems worse.

Testify brother!

3. Why do people bother to discuss the relative merits of different monitors' 'sound', when the room exhibits a +/- 12db swing? You may as well listen through computer speakers and spend the money on ice-cream.

Testify brother!

4. 'Mixing' or 'mastering' in an untreated or poorly treated room? Ever wondered why you find it so hard? Treat the room and mixing is soooooo much easier. "Hey, I can actually hear things! It's almost like cheating."

Testify brother!

I'm going to get a t-shirt made up that says "Save the world - build bass traps!". Maybe a tattoo. On my face.

Send me the bill!

[jimcroisdale]

How about this?

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

How about this?

lol lol pretty darn cool!!

[unit7]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

How about this?

Wonderful! And the tattoo?..

[unit7]

BTW, I totally agree. I've just started working in my newly treated room, which even wasn't that bad earlier. I just tracked an acoustic guitar. I can't describe how nice it is to really hear what's going on. It gives confidence and makes you relax and listen to what's going on musically, which seems like a good idea in a music studio... Totally worth all the effort!

[ciro]

Nice to see your satisfaction with 4 traps .I´m sure you´ll want more.

Ciro

[jimcroisdale]

Oh yeah!

I already want more - an extra 4 on the back wall, plus 4 on the ceiling.

The left hand early reflection point is a window covered with this curtains, but the right hand ER point could use a trap too.

It will look like a padded cell....

Does bass trapping have to be symmetrical? I'm thinking that because of the omnidirectionality (wow) of bass frequencies it will matter less?

Jim

[Glenn Kuras]

Does bass trapping have to be symmetrical?

In the front of the room yes, in the back of the room, not so much.

Glenn

[mp54u]

Another testimony... I have a basement with 6' 8" ceilings. It is the only place I have right now and my control room (if you can call it that, is actually an unfinished room. I built 12 panels. 6 - 2x4 4" bass traps and 6 - 2x4 2" panels. I still have problems to correct but I just recorded my friends band and I have never ever been able to get my drums to sound this good. Kick, room, and oh mics were miles ahead.... wait, light years ahead of what I was getting before. I picked this hobby up 3 years ago or so and have never made such a quantum leap in the sound quality of a recording. I had spent 8-12 grand over that 3 year span (good thing I have some self control ) and better mics, pres, converters never made such an improvement. Anyway, another shout out to Ethan, Glenn, Frank, and everyone on this forum that continues to help all us GS'rs everyday.

[jimcroisdale]

Originally Posted by mp54u

Another testimony... I have a basement with 6' 8" ceilings. It is the only place I have right now and my control room (if you can call it that, is actually an unfinished room. I built 12 panels. 6 - 2x4 4" bass traps and 6 - 2x4 2" panels. I still have problems to correct but I just recorded my friends band and I have never ever been able to get my drums to sound this good. Kick, room, and oh mics were miles ahead.... wait, light years ahead of what I was getting before. I picked this hobby up 3 years ago or so and have never made such a quantum leap in the sound quality of a recording. I had spent 8-12 grand over that 3 year span (good thing I have some self control ) and better mics, pres, converters never made such an improvement. Anyway, another shout out to Ethan, Glenn, Frank, and everyone on this forum that continues to help all us GS'rs everyday.

Testify brother!

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

Testify brother!

lol lol..
This thread should be a sticky!

[memphisindie]

How about a tattoo of a big pair of butt cheeks and a guillotine?
Get rid of excess low end!
Great thread.

[Ethan Winer]

This message has been deleted by jimcroisdale. Reason: drunk and foolish

But those are usually the best posts!

[EricF]

Another enlightened soul - wonderful!

[jimcroisdale]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

But those are usually the best posts!

I can't even remember what it was!

Another piece of genius forever lost to the void.....

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

I can't even remember what it was!

Another piece of genius forever lost to the void.....

[jimcroisdale]

And to think i chucked an old G4 away last week!

[mikahanau]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

How about this?

Do you allow, that i make me a shirt with your design???
I love it, and i must have a shirt of it!!!!!!!
Very nice

cheers
Mika

[andrebrito]

I want to add something to this topic here.

Sure it is important to treat a room. Yet NOTHING replaces proper acoustical design... there's no way a small room with any amount of DYI or any acoustical product (even RPG !) will sound like a professional control room.

People in this forum only think about frequency response and forget other factors such as time response, psychoacoustics, background noise etc....

Some more information on this online article I wrote here

And yes, I do consultancy for both home and professional studios and I also sell acoustical products so I have done all the stuff.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by andrebrito

I want to add something to this topic here.

Sure it is important to treat a room. Yet NOTHING replaces proper acoustical design... there's no way a small room with any amount of DYI or any acoustical product (even RPG !) will sound like a professional control room.

People in this forum only think about frequency response and forget other factors such as time response, psychoacoustics, background noise etc....

Very true. It's always best if you can start off on the right foot from the ground up.

Frank

[Glenn Kuras]

Sure it is important to treat a room. Yet NOTHING replaces proper acoustical design... there's no way a small room with any amount of DYI or any acoustical product (even RPG !) will sound like a professional control room.

Yes a good design is always nice, but with enough work you can make a "home studio" sound pretty damn good. In fact we have fixed a lot of these so called "million dollar" rooms. Heck check out Franks room. GIK Acoustics

[jimcroisdale]

Originally Posted by mikahanau

Do you allow, that i make me a shirt with your design???
I love it, and i must have a shirt of it!!!!!!!
Very nice

cheers
Mika

No problem! If you PM your email address I will email the file for your t-shirt maker.

Jim

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by andrebrito

I want to add something to this topic here.

Sure it is important to treat a room. Yet NOTHING replaces proper acoustical design... there's no way a small room with any amount of DYI or any acoustical product (even RPG !) will sound like a professional control room.

People in this forum only think about frequency response and forget other factors such as time response, psychoacoustics, background noise etc....

Some more information on this online article I wrote here

And yes, I do consultancy for both home and professional studios and I also sell acoustical products so I have done all the stuff.

I did.
In another thread. The movable changeable room, geometry, or, as Frank put it, "The Amoeba" design.
You're right, it does make the most difference. Anybody like Frank or Ethan want to get with me about the design of a variable size unit, maybe a DIY assembly (it can be done) or a manufactured unit for pro install? I don't need all the gravy.
I have to build another one for my new "garage" this year, I'll take pics an graph it all so it can be duped.
Any takers? Maybe someone could fly in and help and we could sell the design? I don't know, never did that before.

[andrebrito]

Glenn, that report only address ONE parameter in small room acoustics which is frequency response. Sure you can make a small room sound flat in frequency but at what cost ? Creating a dead environment ? Forgetting about lateral walls reflections for spaciousness purposes?

About fixing professional studios, it is totally different to fix something that was planned from the scratch than to fix a home studio. Some stuff cannot be fixed period. Laws of physics are what they are. Of course not everyone (me included) can afford to build a pro studio and I'm not against home studio solutions.

Making a control room live but with controlled acoustics that is the BIG challenge in my opinion.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by andrebrito

NOTHING replaces proper acoustical design.

Of course, but most people we deal with do not have the budget to build a room from scratch! So 99 percent of the time (actual statistic ) you're treating an existing space.

there's no way a small room with any amount of DYI or any acoustical product (even RPG !) will sound like a professional control room.

I beg to disagree. Strongly. First, you have to define "professional" control room. Two of my local clients are serious full-time pros who have worked with dozens of famous names each. Both started with rooms that are less than ideal, yet we have managed to make their rooms excellent. By definition these are "professional" control rooms because they are used by full time mix professionals.

Now, I imagine what you really meant is the control room in a Million Dollar studio. Okay, you're right - no amount of RealTraps or RPG or GIK or ASC or Auralex treatments will make a 10 by 12 by 8 foot bedroom sound as good as the control rooms of Studio A at Avatar or The Hit Factory. But these are million dollar rooms! Someone would have to be very unrealistic to expect any products or make-over - including a make-over by Andre Brito - to change their bedroom into a million dollar room.

People in this forum only think about frequency response and forget other factors such as time response, psychoacoustics, background noise etc.

I'm not sure which people you mean, but I certainly understand all of that!

I could even push your argument farther and say few people in this forum understand the big picture of audio, and truly understand how stuff works at lower than superficial levels. I happen to think it's important to understand all aspects of audio to be an expert acoustician.

Andre, you know I respect your opinion a lot. But I have to push just a bit here on some points in your article linked above. You wrote:

It is a bit similar to fast food but applied to the acoustical world. It has its own use and it is valid for the acoustics of your bedroom where the acoustical treatment is basically the same: first point reflections, bass trap and maybe some diffusion. But it also has severe limitations and there's no such thing as the Holy Grail of the small acoustics room treatment.

So what else do you yourself do for bedroom size spaces? Can you post some photos of your projects showing more than bass traps, reflection absorbers, and diffusors?

--Ethan

[Glenn Kuras]

Glenn, that report only address ONE parameter in small room acoustics which is frequency response.

Please look at the report again. If you don't understand waterfall plots please let me know. Waterfall plots show more then just frequency response.

I beg to disagree. Strongly. First, you have to define "professional" control room. Two of my local clients are serious full-time pros who have worked with dozens of famous names each. Both started with rooms that are less than ideal, yet we have managed to make their rooms excellent. By definition these are "professional" control rooms because they are used by full time mix professionals.

Very well said Ethan.

[andrebrito]

Ethan, this has nothing to do with million dollar studios but with design and planning from the scratch starting with dimensions, measurements, and even acoustical models if required. (if the client can afford it of course!). Not to talk about HVAC and electricity.

This has nothing to do also with who is in the studio. You could put Bob Clearmountain on my bedroom and me on a top professional studio and he would for sure get better sound than me. That does NOT mean my space is considered professional. I separate spaces from people who use them

You cannot compare a typical size bedroom with a large control room. What I do in a typical bedroom ? Maybe not that much different than you do (I do like to add a bit of diffusion) but I don't consider such place acoustically speaking similar to a professional control room. If I'm asked to design a studio from the scratch there's much more in-depth way of thinking.

Glenn, yes I know what waterfalls are and I noticed that. Not enough in my opinion for a good time analysis.

[xj32]

Best money I spent all year was on treating my room.

I used to be one of those guys...you know the one:

OP: "I have $3000 to spend on studio upgrades, what mic, pre or converter should I buy?"

Response: "Stick with what you have, take that money and treat your room".

OP: "Naw, thats not cool or sexy or sluty, I want a 1073 clone!"

Response: "Treat your room"

OP: "What a about a better converter, will that make a difference?"

Response: "Treat your room!"

OP: "I'll get to that after I have all my slutty gear..."

Response: "TREAT YOUR ROOM"

...and so on and so on and so on.

I know you guys have all seen these posts,

well I am here to tell you,

"TREAT YOUR ROOM!!!"

XJ

[andrebrito]

If you have money, instead of TREAT YOUR ROOM I would say

HIRE SOMEONE TO DESIGN YOUR SPACE FROM THE SCRATCH