Finally I am beginning to understand HOW IMPORTANT ROOM TREATMENT IS!!!

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by andrebrito

If you have money, instead of TREAT YOUR ROOM I would say

HIRE SOMEONE TO DESIGN YOUR SPACE FROM THE SCRATCH

Agreed, but, that's where you lose most of the peeps reading.
Not your fault they don't all have the chee$e to do that. They just all don't.
Some people do. Some people will. I like the challenge of a retrofit solution that works, but, I've worked in 18' and 24' truck boxes too. I don't mind.
I don't mind putting up walls as a retrofit to alter dimensions and whatnot. Not every piece of real estate is affordable by everyone. Better, people should work and feed their kids than complain about the space they have, that's where treatment shines a lot.
If I ever have enough money to have someone design my space before I build, I will. There is no substitute. Retrofits are not a substitute, treatments aren't either, they are workable solutions to real challenges. Nobody's wrong, no argument.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

Agreed, but, that's where you lose most of the peeps reading.
Not your fault they don't all have the chee$e to do that. They just all don't.
Some people do. Some people will. I like the challenge of a retrofit solution that works, but, I've worked in 18' and 24' truck boxes too. I don't mind.
I don't mind putting up walls as a retrofit to alter dimensions and whatnot. Not every piece of real estate is affordable by everyone. Better, people should work and feed their kids than complain about the space they have, that's where treatment shines a lot.
If I ever have enough money to have someone design my space before I build, I will. There is no substitute. Retrofits are not a substitute, treatments aren't either, they are workable solutions to real challenges. Nobody's wrong, no argument.

Not to mention that cost of space (build/designer) vs what you can charge per hour to clients is becoming harder and harder to justify.
I also agree that if you have a huge budget then hire someone. But I do know that you CAN (as it is being done a 100 times day) use a existing room and treat it well with great results. I don't even understand why we are debating this. The proof is there. People are doing it daily.

Glenn

[andrebrito]

Of course, that's where the IF part comes into question.

My question is not that if people have the money to do so. If people have the money they should do it. My question is to people think treating a typical room that was not initially planned to be a recording studio achieves the same quality as something that is done planned from the scratch.

[andrebrito]

Glenn, great results does not mean professional results at least on my standard.... no way a typical bedroom of 15 ft per 10 ft with ceiling of 10 ft can be the same as a proper design studio no matter how much acoustical treatment you do.

Now I also agree with you that while professional recording studios are closing doors we have a new market for home studios and DYI studios for personal use. A DYI studio can in fact be a professional studio if

Still may question is that if you want to obtain professional results you have to spend money as real pros. You can save money if you build it of course. Nor you nor other forums replace the expertise and the amount of work and time an acoustical engineer needs to do this job.

Acoustics is just like ANY other market. You cannot have a Ferrari for the price of an affordable car. At least you can steal a Ferrari, stealing the entire recording studio is a bit more difficult haha !

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by andrebrito

What I do in a typical bedroom ? Maybe not that much different than you do

Yes, that's all I'm saying.

(I do like to add a bit of diffusion)

Me too, and if you saw my video All About Diffusion you probably noticed that my opinion is diffusion is useful even in small rooms. I'll have more to say on this soon.

--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

LOL, right on bro'.

Originally Posted by xj32

OP: "I have $3000 to spend on studio upgrades, what mic, pre or converter should I buy?"

Response: "Stick with what you have, take that money and treat your room".

OP: "Naw, thats not cool or sexy or sluty, I want a 1073 clone!"

Response: "Treat your room"

OP: "What a about a better converter, will that make a difference?"

Response: "Treat your room!"

OP: "I'll get to that after I have all my slutty gear..."

Response: "TREAT YOUR ROOM"

...and so on and so on and so on.

I know you guys have all seen these posts

[AnthonySpinali]

Anyone who is working in their bedroom is smart enough to know that they are not going to achieve "professional" results with their current setup. I think they are also aware that no amount of treating that space will get them to "professional" results. But the fact remains that you will often benefit more from $2000.00 in room treatment than $2000 in mic pres. That is what this thread is about and it's a lesson that is hard to appreciate and difficult to learn.

I record on a (relatively) cheap board with very limited mics into an old Digi 01 I bought second hand. I think my recordings sound pretty darn good. I'm not making records for bands. Occasionally I'll help somebody cut a demo for clubs or to hand out at shows. My primary use of my space is personal education and enjoyment. I think there are more people like me than you think. On the occasion that one of my bands wants to cut a record we book studio time like everyone else. At the end of the day a good home recording studio helps in preproduction. You can hammer out ideas and overdubs before you're on the clock. And why shouldn't it sound good? If I'm willing to spend $2000 on a Bogner head I don't need, why shouldn't I make my humble studio space as good as it can be? If I decide to build a new room I'll ask for the help. Until then I'd like to be able to seek advice on how to improve my current condition without being made to feel that I shouldn't bother and should tear my house down and start over!

Having said that I am going to build a room in my basement and I will create a thread to discuss.... I hope eveyone understands that (in my opinion) this is a place to share ideas and knowledge. I don't think that undercutting one another is as productive as it feels.

Maybe we should share our ideas and debate them without taking it so personally.

[jchadstopherhuez]

Originally Posted by AnthonySpinali

Anyone who is working in their bedroom is smart enough to know that they are not going to achieve "professional" results with their current setup. I think they are also aware that no amount of treating that space will get them to "professional" results. But the fact remains that you will often benefit more from $2000.00 in room treatment than $2000 in mic pres. That is what this thread is about and it's a lesson that is hard to appreciate and difficult to learn.

I record on a (relatively) cheap board with very limited mics into an old Digi 01 I bought second hand. I think my recordings sound pretty darn good. I'm not making records for bands. Occasionally I'll help somebody cut a demo for clubs or to hand out at shows. My primary use of my space is personal education and enjoyment. I think there are more people like me than you think. On the occasion that one of my bands wants to cut a record we book studio time like everyone else. At the end of the day a good home recording studio helps in preproduction. You can hammer out ideas and overdubs before you're on the clock. And why shouldn't it sound good? If I'm willing to spend $2000 on a Bogner head I don't need, why shouldn't I make my humble studio space as good as it can be? If I decide to build a new room I'll ask for the help. Until then I'd like to be able to seek advice on how to improve my current condition without being made to feel that I shouldn't bother and should tear my house down and start over!

Having said that I am going to build a room in my basement and I will create a thread to discuss.... I hope eveyone understands that (in my opinion) this is a place to share ideas and knowledge. I don't think that undercutting one another is as productive as it feels.

Maybe we should share our ideas and debate them without taking it so personally.

well said sir.

for what its worth....as you know, i have a fairly solid idea of what your basement is like.. and you can absolutely do some cool stuff there !!

you have the advantage of lots of space...and fairly high ceilings for a basement.

when i am back in april...i'm happy to share some knowledge....and more importantly...all the mistakes i have made and corrected over my 4-5 studios. you can learn alot here as well...good peeps on this board.

i've been doing this gig long enough to know the chain of command in getting great sounds is:

1. player
2. instrument/amp
2.5 the tune, the part, the ideas
3. T H E R O O M !!!
4. everything else.

cheers,

jchristopherhughes

ps...ant...i am finally back at my home base next week...will try to call you.

welcome to gearslutz !!!

[Glenn Kuras]

Acoustics is just like ANY other market. You cannot have a Ferrari for the price of an affordable car. At least you can steal a Ferrari, stealing the entire recording studio is a bit more difficult haha !

No but you can get a Porsche Boxster, put a bit of money in it and keep up with a Ferrari. If you don't believe me I can give you a ride some time. lol lol lol

Glenn

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Yes, that's all I'm saying.



Me too, and if you saw my video All About Diffusion you probably noticed that my opinion is diffusion is useful even in small rooms. I'll have more to say on this soon.

--Ethan

Sure diffusion can be used in a smaller room. You just have to understand the limitations. I believe start with a good amount absorption then add the diffusion as a "icing on the cake" kind of thing.

Glenn

[Glenn Kuras]

Glenn, great results does not mean professional results at least on my standard....

There are guys on GS that are working in bedrooms that are getting professional recordings.
Before we go back and forth again, lol lol lol.. I do agree that having a pro design a room is great.

[purplesky]

Hey guys, This is a interesting topic and I have a home studio setup in my unfinished basement. I have been focused more on writing and just laying down ideas but a year has passed and its time to finish songs and do final mixes. I need to do something here soon with my basement. Would the GIK room kits work for me in my unfinished basement?
Thanks

[Skai_Penalva]

So, r u saying you would rather have a completely untreated room with a great design... than a parallel-walled 12 x 19 x 8 room that has well placed complete proper treatment with great MEASURED results?

[Seamus TM]

Originally Posted by AnthonySpinali

Anyone who is working in their bedroom is smart enough to know that they are not going to achieve "professional" results with their current setup.

I'm sorry, but I whish that this was true.
A lot of people that I talk to with small home set ups don't understand the difference... and don't get me started on musicians who should know better.
Don't get me wrong, I've heard some really cool stuff come out of small home set ups, but that is usually due to some kind of unrepeatable uniqueness that is present within the people themselves, not in their set ups.

Sorry, this is not what this thread is about, though.

I do agree that designing a room from the ground up would be great. No question. However, treating an existing room offers an amazing improvement for the money. It's kind of ridiculous.
Along those same lines, though, there are a lot of other things that people can do with their spaces to achieve improvements within that same price range. HVAC is a biggie. I'm not talking about a brand new system, just little things like lined duct work or silencers and fine tuning the system that you have so that it works quieter while it still works effeciently.

Power is another one. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out proper grounding to an existing space. Even if you have to hire an electrician for a day to do that and work out any undesireable circuit situations, it's a far cry from some crazy mic pre or converter.

So, while treating an existing room is one of the easiest ways to get your system sounding better (let's remember that it's all a system... everything effects everything else), it is not a silver bullet. Niether is building the perfect studio from the ground up. Treatment is, however, a no-brainer thanks to a handful of people that make basic knowledge available to anyone and everyone.

In our Sisyphian pursuit of sound, we, as studio owners and/or operators, owe it to our clients and ourselves to make our systems as "professional" as we are able to make them. Everything is relative.

ps. I think that was the longest post I've ever bothered to write, so thanks for the inspiration.

[Washington]

Much to my surprise, Glenn has not yet posted the unavoidable picture of his printed traps in this thread. C'mon! Up and away! Must I do it for you?

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Washington

Much to my surprise, Glenn has not yet posted the unavoidable picture of his printed traps in this thread. C'mon! Up and away! Must I do it for you?

lol lol lol.. I will let you do it!! lol lol

Hey guys, This is a interesting topic and I have a home studio setup in my unfinished basement. I have been focused more on writing and just laying down ideas but a year has passed and its time to finish songs and do final mixes. I need to do something here soon with my basement. Would the GIK room kits work for me in my unfinished basement?
Thanks

I would recommend that you contact us to go over your room. Would it help? YES... Is it enough??? Maybe.

So, r u saying you would rather have a completely untreated room with a great design... than a parallel-walled 12 x 19 x 8 room that has well placed complete proper treatment with great MEASURED results?

Thank you for saying that. Yes a design is great but there is no reason to not treat the room if you can not afford a designer. With thousands of rooms treated I can say with confidence that you don't have to just give up. Shall we start with Bob Kats B room? Or maybe Switch Foots room? Oh wait they only sold 2.5 million cds (and counting). lol lol lol

[Washington]

Glad to oblige!

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by AnthonySpinali

Anyone who is working in their bedroom is smart enough to know that they are not going to achieve "professional" results with their current setup. I think they are also aware that no amount of treating that space will get them to "professional" results. But the fact remains that you will often benefit more from $2000.00 in room treatment than $2000 in mic pres. That is what this thread is about and it's a lesson that is hard to appreciate and difficult to learn.

Maybe we should share our ideas and debate them without taking it so personally.

This isn't a dig or flame, but, what "exactly" is your definition of professional?

Please, be succinct and clear with your description.

[Weasel9992]

You know, I don't often defend things on the boards, but I will defend that Room Report. What we were trying to do there was present a below-average room in all of it's crappiness, then apply all the principals we preach on these forums day in and day out to it. The reason we preach them is that we know they work, of course, but we wanted people to see that first-hand. We even left the problem areas in the final report in the interest of total transparency. There's no smoke and mirrors, no attempt to hide a thing. The point is, if that room can be brought under control, just about any room can. Is the room perfect? No. But it's a WHOLE lot better than it was, both from a frequency and a time-domain standpoint.

Another thing to consider is that there's an aspect of economics at work here. Andre, while I would agree with you that design is a great thing that can solve many problems before they occurr, it's not always practical given budgets as they are in the real world. If someone has a 10'x13' room and $1,000 to spend, I'd say that's probably most efficiently spent on treatment, not formal design. On the other hand, if the client has $10,000 to spend and the right raw materials in terms of space then design becomes a more viable option. Of course, there's a middle ground as well. There was a thread recently where a guy hired Bob Hodas to come in and tweak his room...that would probably land somewhere in the middle from a budget standpoint, and the guy got great results. Even in that thread though, the issue of careful positioning seemed to be the biggest point, which is something we talk about all the time.

Last, I wanted to point something out. My first studio internship was in 1984...I was 14 years old, running coffee, cleaning toilets, sweeping, mopping, vaccuuming, etc. In was a nice place...custom build, tons of great equipment and two engineers who were fantastic. That studio's hourly rate was the same as many studios today in 2009. I say that to say that we all have budgetary issues to consider, and have to seriously ponder the value of what we're doing. I'm saying that acoustically treating your average below-average room on a budget is probably higher on the value scale than a proffesional design. Again, I am not in a any way stating that there's no place for design, so read this post carefully before flaming me on that point.

Frank

[mxeryus]

Baseline... before your next equipment buy, show proof here that you have acoustically treated your room!

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

This isn't a dig or flame, but, what "exactly" is your definition of professional?

Please, be succinct and clear with your description.

You took the words right out of my mouth!!

[Crash]

Originally Posted by xj32

Best money I spent all year was on treating my room.

I used to be one of those guys...you know the one:

OP: "I have $3000 to spend on studio upgrades, what mic, pre or converter should I buy?"

Response: "Stick with what you have, take that money and treat your room".

OP: "Naw, thats not cool or sexy or sluty, I want a 1073 clone!"

Response: "Treat your room"

OP: "What a about a better converter, will that make a difference?"

Response: "Treat your room!"

OP: "I'll get to that after I have all my slutty gear..."

Response: "TREAT YOUR ROOM"

...and so on and so on and so on.

I know you guys have all seen these posts,

well I am here to tell you,

"TREAT YOUR ROOM!!!"

XJ

As GK would say....Testify Brother! That was me as well.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Skai_Penalva

So, r u saying you would rather have a completely untreated room with a great design... than a parallel-walled 12 x 19 x 8 room that has well placed complete proper treatment with great MEASURED results?

A 19x12x8 foot room with a sufficient amount of treatment will beat any room without treatment.

--Ethan

[AnthonySpinali]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

This isn't a dig or flame, but, what "exactly" is your definition of professional?

Please, be succinct and clear with your description.

Wow I have to be honest; when you use offensive language like that it is hard not to be offended. I was using the word "professional" as a quote of this post:

Originally Posted by andrebrito

Glenn, great results does not mean professional results at least on my standard.... no way a typical bedroom of 15 ft per 10 ft with ceiling of 10 ft can be the same as a proper design studio no matter how much acoustical treatment you do.

Now I also agree with you that while professional recording studios are closing doors we have a new market for home studios and DYI studios for personal use. A DYI studio can in fact be a professional studio if

Still may question is that if you want to obtain professional results you have to spend money as real pros. You can save money if you build it of course. Nor you nor other forums replace the expertise and the amount of work and time an acoustical engineer needs to do this job.

I suppose that, in my mind, my "definition" of professional was irrelevant because I was intending to use his definition (however unclear that may be).
I didn't originally quote this post because I'm not out to hurt anyone's feelings or be disagreeable. In all honesty I'm very new to serious acoustic discussion as well as forums in general so I will try to be more clear. I'm just here to learn. I find that too many folks answer questions by telling people that their question is stupid and suggest something far more expensive and impractical.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by AnthonySpinali

Wow I have to be honest; when you use offensive language like that it is hard not to be offended. I was using the word "professional" as a quote of this post:



I suppose that, in my mind, my "definition" of professional was irrelevant because I was intending to use his definition (however unclear that may be).
I didn't originally quote this post because I'm not out to hurt anyone's feelings or be disagreeable. In all honesty I'm very new to serious acoustic discussion as well as forums in general so I will try to be more clear. I'm just here to learn. I find that too many folks answer questions by telling people that their question is stupid and suggest something far more expensive and impractical.

I hear you, it is a problem.

[andrebrito]

Frank,

I'm not flaming anyone nor you on this matter. Like I said previously I do all 3 things: I do acoustical design from the scratch, I do improvement of existing rooms and I sell acoustical material. My opinion comes from my experience in all these 3 fields. Actually I also work in environmental and industrial acoustics so my experience is rather broad.

My point is not a question of budget. My point is that your $1000 solution is not going to turn your home studio into a professional space. Sure it will help immensely and I rather have people spending money in room treatment than in gear and still work in an untreated room. But let's not be unrealistic. Now what happens is that with the decrease of price of constructions materials, studios are way cheaper to build. Information is also much more accessible. Yet that does not mean such information and forums like this will replace the work of acoustical design.

About the Room Report, like I said, I do a more in-depth analysis of a room including impulsive response, early reflections and reverberation time. I have never hidden my preference in this forum from the fact that I prefer live control rooms and doing it correctly is quite difficult.

[Glenn Kuras]

My point is not a question of budget. My point is that your $1000 solution is not going to turn your home studio into a professional space.

All I can say is the proof is with thousands of pros that have done it with around $1000. I will agree that in same cases you can double if not triple depending on the room.

I have never hidden my preference in this forum from the fact that I prefer live control rooms and doing it correctly is quite difficult.

Agreed and would want someone on site for something like that.

[fabricaudio]

Originally Posted by andrebrito

Frank,

I'm not flaming anyone nor you on this matter. Like I said previously I do all 3 things: I do acoustical design from the scratch, I do improvement of existing rooms and I sell acoustical material. My opinion comes from my experience in all these 3 fields. Actually I also work in environmental and industrial acoustics so my experience is rather broad.

My point is not a question of budget. My point is that your $1000 solution is not going to turn your home studio into a professional space. Sure it will help immensely and I rather have people spending money in room treatment than in gear and still work in an untreated room. But let's not be unrealistic. Now what happens is that with the decrease of price of constructions materials, studios are way cheaper to build. Information is also much more accessible. Yet that does not mean such information and forums like this will replace the work of acoustical design.

About the Room Report, like I said, I do a more in-depth analysis of a room including impulsive response, early reflections and reverberation time. I have never hidden my preference in this forum from the fact that I prefer live control rooms and doing it correctly is quite difficult.

I agree with andrebrito.


If someone is going to spend money to build a room, you better do it right.

1. Plan

2. Build

3. Measure - Hire an acoustical engineer

4. Build the treatment advising your engineer


Home studio is totally different approach from professional studios, you dont care about HVAC, electrics, doors, walls, floating floors etc.

DIY works in both but the budget numbers are totally different.


Nikolas

[Glenn Kuras]

Home studio is totally different approach from professional studios, you dont care about HVAC, electrics, doors, walls, floating floors etc.

ding ding ding. You are right on the money. One other thing is a pro builder would also know about all the codes.

Glenn

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by fabricaudio

Home studio is totally different approach from professional studios, you dont care about HVAC, electrics, doors, walls, floating floors etc.

DIY works in both but the budget numbers are totally different.

I've worked in the design field for years, mostly designing large pro audio systems. When I say "large" I mean multi-million dollar systems in some cases. That's definitely not something to attempt without really knowing what you're about. There are too many things that can go wrong in an integrated system, and when they do, the result is typically a cascading failure. If you get something wrong structurally then a 2,500lb line array may snap loose from a hanging point and kill somebody.

I know *exactly* what you and Andre mean, and I agree...when you have things like HVAC, structural and low-voltage code to worry about hiring a profession designer is the right thing to do. It'll actually end up saving you money in the long run. There's certainly no offense taken on my part.

Frank