Bass Traps: Healthy Alternatives to Fiberglass?

[author]

Which harmless materials can be used for bass traps instead of fiberglass, ultratouch cotton, etc.?

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by author

Which harmless materials can be used for bass traps instead of fiberglass, ultratouch cotton, etc.?

they are all pretty much harmless, but ultratouch is about as green as you can go I believe.

Glenn

[author]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

they are all pretty much harmless
Glenn

There are several opinions on that...

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

ultratouch is about as green as you can go I believe.
Glenn

Contains boric acid, I look for products without formaldehyde, boric acid, etc.

[Driller]

Originally Posted by author

There are several opinions on that...



Contains boric acid, I look for products without formaldehyde, boric acid, etc.

Have you tried lentil wool? It's made from the unprocessed husks of African lentils, washed, dried and compacted into "biscuits" 1200mm by 600mm. From what I understand there are no deleterious chemicals added. Should be available from your local highstreet new-age boutique.

HTH

[author]

Mm, sounds yummie!

Other suggestions?

[Driller]

Originally Posted by author

Mm, sounds yummie!

Other suggestions?

Will you have any furniture or carpet in your studio room?

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by author

There are several opinions on that...



Contains boric acid

so? almost every product that's fire ******ant does. you're not using it as a pillow.

[Driller]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

so? almost every product that's fire ******ant does. you're not using it as a pillow.

Quite. Hence my comment about carpet above.

[author]

So... any suggestions?

[Driller]

Originally Posted by author

So... any suggestions?

Use cotton, as I have. That way you avoid all possibility of having airborne particles irritating your bronchial passages.

If you're in Denmark have you looked at Isoa cotton products? They may not have Boric acid in them but even if they do you have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise you're going to walk around like Michael Jackson with a mask over your face.

I appreciate your concerns though. I don't use mobile phones because they give me a headache and I worry about the (unproven) effects of microwave radiation.

People think I'm crazy. So go on, be a devil, get some cotton. You know you want to.

[author]

Originally Posted by Driller

Use cotton, as I have. That way you avoid all possibility of having airborne particles irritating your bronchial passages.

I'll look further into the cotton situation.

[/quote]

[666666]

I keep making this suggestion in assorted threads regarding this subject and have not received much feedback. If this is a bad idea, I'd like someone to please chime in.

Buy ANY material you want... fiberglass, ultratouch, whatever... then just wrap it in thin plastic sheeting (or seal it in a thin plastic garage bag)... doing so should CONTAIN whatever "harmful" dust or gasses are in the material. Then just add a layer of thin foam or thick felt etc over the plastic sheeting to kill any weird ultra hi-end reflections that might bounce off the thin plastic. Lower frequencies will go right through. Sealing up material in plastic seems like such an incredibly easy way of isolating the "harmful" elements in the material (if there are any).

Or... do any of you scientific guys know for a fact that fiberlgass dust, formaldahyde vapor etc can somehow get THROUGH plastic sheeting over time or something? To my knowledge plastic sheeting is air, water and vapor tight. If the plastic was sealed perfectly all around the "harmful" material, I'd think that there would be ZERO trace of the "harmful" elements inside the room. Is this incorrect?

Plastic sheeting / thin garbage bags are very inexpensive, so cheap that cost is not even worth looking at... at least with respect to the other materials involved with building the average bass trap.

[author]

Originally Posted by 666666

I keep making this suggestion in assorted threads regarding this subject and have not received much feedback. If this is a bad idea, I'd like someone to please chime in.

Buy ANY material you want... fiberglass, ultratouch, whatever... then just wrap it in thin plastic sheeting (or seal it in a thin plastic garage bag)... doing so should CONTAIN whatever "harmful" dust or gasses are in the material. Then just add a layer of thin foam or thick felt etc over the plastic sheeting to kill any weird ultra hi-end reflections that might bounce off the thin plastic. Lower frequencies will go right through. Sealing up material in plastic seems like such an incredibly easy way of isolating the "harmful" elements in the material (if there are any).

Or... do any of you scientific guys know for a fact that fiberlgass dust, formaldahyde vapor etc can somehow get THROUGH plastic sheeting over time or something? To my knowledge plastic sheeting is air, water and vapor tight. If the plastic was sealed perfectly all around the "harmful" material, I'd think that there would be ZERO trace of the "harmful" elements inside the room. Is this incorrect?

Plastic sheeting / thin garbage bags are very inexpensive, so cheap that cost is not even worth looking at... at least with respect to the other materials involved with building the average bass trap.

I quote your entire post because you raise a very good question. And I hope some of the clever guys here can come up with an answer.

Why *would* plastic compromise the sound -- especially if it's treated like you say? And if it doesn't, why not use it?

I'm building a vocal booth and I wondered if I should wrap the nasty stuff in plastic, but then I thought, nah nobody recommends it.

But why not?

[Driller]

I have no scientific information to back this up but I "sense" strongly that wrapping all this stuff in plastic must reduce its effectiveness. I await for someone in the know to contradict me...

[silverdisk]

well, itll contain the particles, and some of the gas, say with different mil thickness. but most regular plastic sheet has 'pinholes' in it, little holes and imperfections you cant see. thats why some vapor barrier companies came up with 2 ply cross laminated reinforced plastic such as 'tu tuff' . then again for all i know that is marketing hype, but it seems to make sense. aluminum foil is supposed to be a good block for formaldehyde gases.

[author]

Originally Posted by Driller

I have no scientific information to back this up but I "sense" strongly that wrapping all this stuff in plastic must reduce its effectiveness. I await for someone in the know to contradict me...

Yes, I 'sense' it in the same way -- that a plastic layer would bounce back the sound, possibly adding some screeching synthetic noise in the process.

BUT I've never heard that thin plastic could block, or change any frequencies. If it could, we would probably use it somehow. And if it can't do that...

[author]

Originally Posted by silverdisk

well, itll contain the particles, and some of the gas, say with different mil thickness. but most regular plastic sheet has 'pinholes' in it, little holes and imperfections you cant see.

Well, I have never heard anybody except the Pope say that plastic can't contain certain vital fluids and stuff in a proper way. And as long we're not talking about containing radioactive materials, I think I would take my chances.

IF it it doesn't compromise the sound??????????????????????????????????????

[666666]

I'll say this about plastic sheeting...

A few months back it made sense to me that thin plastic sheeting (like 3 mil or less) was so thin in general that it could have no effect on sound. I posted a question about this here and some of the more knowledgeable people here said plastic DOES indeed reflect and will sound bad.

Well, I got to test it for myself not too long after. After I framed out the inner room of a new room I built, I added insulation between the studs... room became extremely dead as you'd expect. Next I added a 6 mil vapor barrier around the entire room, over the studs and fiberglass insulation. Once that plastic was up... WOW... the sound changed dramatically... ultra piercing and horrible sounding upper-end reflections. It would hurt my ears. It was reflecting only very high frequencies though. The 6 mil plastic proved to indeed reflect and cause trouble.

Based on all this, I'd never recommend wrapping your fiberglass in plastic and then leaving the plastic EXPOSED to the room.

However, I'd think (in my unscientific opinion) that adding a mere 1" of foam (for instance) in FRONT of the plastic would soak up anything that would have otherwise bounced off the plastic (upper-end stuff only)... and anything below would pass right through the foam and plastic INTO the fiberglass.

It makes no sense to me that any frequency that would be able to pass through say 1 solid inch of good acoustic foam would actually get reflected back into the room by a 3 mil sheet of plastic BEHIND the foam. 3 mil is 3 thousandths of an inch, correct? Even if something did reach the plastic that could be reflected, it would have to then bounce back through the 1" of foam before reaching your ears. Lower-end frequencies should have zero problems passing through something that is 3 thousands of an inch thick, so I don't see how the plastic would be an issue here. All just speculation anyway.

[author]

Originally Posted by 666666

However, I'd think (in my unscientific opinion) that adding a mere 1" of foam (for instance) in FRONT of the plastic would soak up anything that would have otherwise bounced off the plastic (upper-end stuff only)... and anything below would pass right through the foam and plastic INTO the fiberglass.

Anyone care to offer a scientific opinion on such a foam/plastic/fiberglass sandwich?

[avare]

I spoke with a friend who works at Roxul about about the production process. After the insulation has the binder applied, it is baked at 500°. At least some of their product is also "Greenguard indoor air quality" certified.

Andre

[wesarvin]

I believe that plastic actually would increase trapping effectiveness, especially at the lower frequencies. Ethan and crew all recommend using FRK, posterboard, plastic sheeting (which I think is what RealTraps uses) under the fabric in order to boost effectiveness. It's commonly considered a "limp-mass membrane."

Why not use plastic? They put tarps or sheeting over PA mains at giant outdoor shows. Try putting a garbage bag tightly over a bass amp and see if the lows get through. Use foam to kill the highs. I don't have an acoustic degree so don't quote me on anything however...

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by avare

I spoke with a friend who works at Roxul about about the production process. After the insulation has the binder applied, it is baked at 500°. At least some of their product is also "Greenguard indoor air quality" certified.

Andre

people worry about cell phones because the tech is only 15-20 years old - no longer term users exist. ditto with aspartame. people have had high fatality rates working in asbestos factories since asbestos was invented.

the ridiculous thing about this thread is fibreglass and mineral wool have been around longer than any of us have been alive. there is no similar evidence of higher fatalities for oc/roxul workers. have you ever seen a warehouse full of the stuff? if the concerns itt are rational, they'd be deathtraps. they're not.

the fact that people have been working directly with these materials all their lives in factories etc. with NO ill effects except potential breathing irritation from long-term exposure to LOOSE FIBRES, should tell you something.

it's paranoia.

wear a mask. use a tight fabric or mineral wool, which does not produce dust easily. stop freaking out. you no doubt get worst fumes crossing the road at a busy city intersection.

In October 2001, an international expert review by International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) re-evaluated the 1988 IARC assessment of glass fibers, rock and slag wool fibers from its list of substances "possibly carcinogenic to humans." All fiber glass and rock and slag wools that are commonly used for thermal and acoustical insulation are now considered not classifiable as to carcinogenicity to humans (Group 3). (International Agency for Research on Cancer, IARC Monographs on the Evaluation of Carcinogenic Risks to Humans: Man-Made Vitreous Fibres, Vol. 81 (Lyon, France: WHO/IARC, 2002); http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol81/volume81.pdf

edit: see rockwool

[author]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

it's paranoia.

Do some research. It might be good for you. Really.

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by author

Do some research. It might be good for you. Really.

that's just it. i have. if you have any links exploring the concerns that are motivating you i'd be eager to see them. i wouldn't want to miss anything myself, but thus far i see nothing remotely significant to miss.

we'll see what glide finds re: formaldehyde, but even with that, i'm sure any med/bio lab tech/student gets infinitely greater exposure over a career. they're not dropping dead from it. and boric acid is everywhere and unavoidable in fire prevention. fire is far more deadly than boric acid. no competition.

there are bigger things to worry about imo.

[DHMcC]

Right everyone,

This only applies to floor bass traps but...

SAND!

red sand!

get four bags or as many as you need and line them up against the wall...

They obsurb evverything..

or it may just be me...

either way it seemed to help

[Driller]

Originally Posted by author

Well, I have never heard anybody except the Pope say that plastic can't contain certain vital fluids and stuff in a proper way.

Um I think that's "rubber" you're talking about...

Originally Posted by guitarwes

. Try putting a garbage back tightly over a bass amp and see if the lows get through.

Now that is a damn good idea to do a test!

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

people worry about cell phones because the tech is only 15-20 years old - no longer term users exist. ditto with aspartame. people have had high fatality rates working in asbestos factories since asbestos was invented.

the ridiculous thing about this thread is fibreglass and mineral wool have been around longer than any of us have been alive. there is no similar evidence of higher fatalities for oc/roxul workers. have you ever seen a warehouse full of the stuff? if the concerns itt are rational, they'd be deathtraps. they're not.

the fact that people have been working directly with these materials all their lives in factories etc. with NO ill effects except potential breathing irritation from long-term exposure to LOOSE FIBRES, should tell you something.

it's paranoia.

wear a mask. use a tight fabric or mineral wool, which does not produce dust easily. stop freaking out. you no doubt get worst fumes crossing the road at a busy city intersection.

For me it's not about health concerns per se, but the fact that my air passages get irritated by the fibers (in my last studio) and I'm continually clearing my throat. This gives a general sense of uneasyness about the product.

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by Driller

For me it's not about health concerns per se, but the fact that my air passages get irritated by the fibers (in my last studio) and I'm continually clearing my throat. This gives a general sense of uneasyness about the product.

really? what product was it? how was it enclosed?

[jinksdingo]

A bass trap wrapped in plastic film, only microns thick; like Painters throw away plastic drop sheets and sealed is my solution to rockwool or fibreglass becoming airborne. Then wrapped in coarse fabric to diffuse any high frequency reflection from off the plastic. I use a felt material as used in Theaters for curtains.

While Diffusing foam would also work I think they are needed in the reflection points of your room. The coarse fabric should handle any probs introduced by the film. Not sure about 3mm plastic though.

There is no way that using only fabric alone will contain the fibers. A studio will have vibrations disturbing the fibres.
Wacking a matress or pillow with a straw broom in Spring; out comes the dust. Fabric leaks.

[Driller]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

really? what product was it? how was it enclosed?

It was rockwool enclosed in fabric. To be fair it was a hessian/burlap type material with a relatively open weave-exactly as recommended. But again the rockwool was left untouched, no whacking with sticks going on .

It's possible that the hessian/burlap itself didn't help being an organic material-have you ever put that stuff to your nose, it stinks in a musty sort of way. This is also why I used the synthetic Cara fabric for the latest installation, no musty smell.

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by Driller

It was rockwool enclosed in fabric. To be fair it was a hessian/burlap type material with a relatively open weave-exactly as recommended. But again the rockwool was left untouched, no whacking with sticks going on .

burlap/muslin should only be used if you super 77 a layer of polyester batting to the panel first. burlap is too loose. i've done oc703 that way - no problems. alternatively, you can use fabrics like the ready bags are super tight, and hold my rockwool impenetrably (so far as i can in any way tell).

my mom is super-allergic/sensitive and she never had a problem around either of the above. but open weave fabric needs batting first. that's nothing new.