rockwool

[Mixbuster]

Is rockwool a health risk?

[Glenn Kuras]

RECORDING Exposing the Myths of Fiberglass - Folks, People have heard all kinds of stories about fiberglass and it's hazzards. It has been stated: [quote:2c917e7e71] I mean that cutting fiberglass can be a bit of a health hazard because the fibers, w

Read the following.

Glenn

[audiovisceral]

that's fiberglass, not mineral wool. very different no? but i think mineral/rock wool is even safer. dunno...

[Driller]

Think about it this way. Even if these materials don't cause cancer, any fibers that you breathe in are going to stay in your lungs. They are too heavy to be removed in phlegm/mucous by the villi and coughed up.

What happens in these cases is that the white blood cells (macrophages) in your lungs envelope the particle which then stays there forever. (well at least until you decompose).

The same can also be said for coal dust, tar in cigarettes, general polution etc. Although these products are considered to be carcinogenic.

In the days when I studied anatomy, the lungs of cadavers who were smokers/lived in the city were always black for the above reasons.

If the acoustic treatment is manufactured in such a way that these fibers don't escape or there aren't any fibers, then they can't get in your lungs.

[Glenn Kuras]

If the acoustic treatment is manufactured in such a way that these fibers don't escape or there aren't any fibers, then they can't get in your lungs.

That is a great point and one of the reasons you should ALWAYS wear a mask, safety glasses, hat, gloves ect............ while building panels.


Glenn

[Driller]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

That is a great point and one of the reasons you should ALWAYS wear a mask, safety glasses, hat, gloves ect............ while building panels.


Glenn

Absolutely Glenn and as long as the professionally manufactured acoustic products themselves don't allow any fibers to escape, and there's no reason to doubt that, then all is well.

[DHMcC]

I wish people used the dam search..

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by Driller

Think about it this way. Even if these materials don't cause cancer, any fibers that you breathe in are going to stay in your lungs. They are too heavy to be removed in phlegm/mucous by the villi and coughed up.

What happens in these cases is that the white blood cells (macrophages) in your lungs envelope the particle which then stays there forever. (well at least until you decompose).

The same can also be said for coal dust, tar in cigarettes, general polution etc. Although these products are considered to be carcinogenic.

not wholly accurate. eg. tar very much leaves the lungs over time. and macrophages are not immortal, and they are cleared out.

[Driller]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

not wholly accurate. eg. tar very much leaves the lungs over time. and macrophages are not immortal, and they are cleared out.

Every last little bit, can you guarantee that? Plus a smoker's muco-cilliary escalator is fairy impeded preventing normal clearance no?

You're not a Gut Gardener are you?

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by Driller

Every last little bit, can you guarantee that? Plus a smoker's muco-cilliary escalator is fairy impeded preventing normal clearance no?

You're not a Gut Gardener are you?

not every last bit no but eg.

"3 months ago yesterday I quit smoking. two days after I quit my lungs
started propelling the tar out and it still continues. The lungs hold
an amazing amount of crap in them. "

Lung tar

most smokers will say the same. ditto should apply for most particulate matter. and precancerous changes to the lung lining generally return to normal over time as well.

gut gardener? lol. actually i'm a med student (who happens to be out of school right now for my own medical problems. i'll be starting over sept 09 ... life. what are ya gonna do, huh?)

[Driller]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

not every last bit no but eg.

"3 months ago yesterday I quit smoking. two days after I quit my lungs
started propelling the tar out and it still continues. The lungs hold
an amazing amount of crap in them. "

Lung tar

most smokers will say the same. ditto should apply for most particulate matter. and precancerous changes to the lung lining generally return to normal over time as well.

gut gardener? lol. actually i'm a med student (who happens to be out of school right now for my own medical problems. i'll be starting over sept 09 ... life. what are ya gonna do, huh?)

I think you'll find that for each bit of crap that's expelled, there's a bit more crap left behind, especially for fibrous material.

But anyway, get back to medschool and then do music for a laugh. It took me seven years to work it out the hard way .

[eddierodriguez]

Originally Posted by Mixbuster

Is rockwool a health risk?

about 1820 asbest was re-established, since 1900 doctors knew the "asbestose" causing cancer.

so it took over 80 years from 1900 to about 198X to ban asbest! the lobby averted it´s ban for this long time.

it´ll be the same with mineral-wool/rockwool and fiberglass. master-housebuilder advise to take alternatives by now, which are flax (used at my studio thumbsup), hemp, coco, clay,...

your decision...

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by eddierodriguez

about 1820 asbest was re-established, since 1900 doctors knew the "asbestose" causing cancer.

so it took over 80 years from 1900 to about 198X to ban asbest! the lobby averted it´s ban for this long time.

it´ll be the same with mineral-wool/rockwool and fiberglass. master-housebuilder advise to take alternatives by now, which are flax (used at my studio thumbsup), hemp, coco, clay,...

your decision...

that's exactly the thing - fiberglass was invented in the 1920s, and there remains NO INCREASE in lung cancer among contractors and factory workers who have dealt with it their whole lives. there is evidence LONG-TERM loose fiber inhalation can cause irritation/asthma, but that's why you wear a mask, use a tight fabric, or do a polyester batting wrapping first.

after the mass deaths from asbestos, public health/science is now more careful than ever. it's been 80 years and despite plenty of research, there remains no practical evidence fiberglass is a killer.

but if you wanna worry there's plenty to go around - pesticides on food, fluoride in water, bisphenol a in plastic, aspartame in drinks, preservatives in food, hormones in meat, mercury in fish, mercury in vaccines, cellular radiation, uv radiation, radon/formaldehyde/borates around the house, smog in city air, viruses in mosquitoes, deet in repellant, mrsa in hospitals ...

anything else?

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by Driller

get back to medschool and then do music for a laugh. It took me seven years to work it out the hard way .

you're a dentist now i take it? were you a musician 7 years prior?

i'm always interested to hear how others blend it all together.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

...but if you wanna worry there's plenty to go around - pesticides on food, fluoride in water, bisphenol a in plastic, aspartame in drinks, preservatives in food, hormones in meat, mercury in fish, mercury in vaccines, cellular radiation, uv radiation, radon/formaldehyde/borates around the house, smog in city air, viruses in mosquitoes, deet in repellant, mrsa in hospitals ...

anything else?

That's always kinda my point in these threads. There are *so* many more dangerous things around to worry about...but I have to say, this is the best thread thus far on the topic. Having a couple of medical professionals hashing it out is great. I don't understand half of it, but keep it up anyway!

Frank

[Driller]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

you're a dentist now i take it? were you a musician 7 years prior?

i'm always interested to hear how others blend it all together.

Yep dentist/implantologist and vaious things + musician before. This way I get to do a 3 1/2 day week and earn enough money to keep me in decent gear/food/girlfriend/insert as appropriate etc

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by Weasel9992

That's always kinda my point in these threads. There are *so* many more dangerous things around to worry about...but I have to say, this is the best thread thus far on the topic. Having a couple of medical professionals hashing it out is great. I don't understand half of it, but keep it up anyway!

Frank

Well I did a bit of looking around, and here's the fundamental point about fiberglass that makes it 'safe' vs. something like asbestos:

Asbestos was lethal because it accumulated and stayed in your lungs permanently, scarring them and acting carcinogenic for life. However, your body is fully capable of breaking down any stray fiberglass (and presumably rockwool as well) you breathe. It simply dissolves.

It appears everyone has different tolerance for the fibers, and thus factories have 'recommended exposure limits' but so long as the exposure is within the capacity of your body to break it down (which appears quite high), it is safe.

The only studies that have shown serious risks like cancer have been in animals involving levels no living human could possibly encounter. There are anecdotal stories of people having severe 'allergy-type' reactions, but they generally seem to be rare massive disasters/accidents or where symptoms were ignored over time. In those cases, people's lungs/skin can become 'hypersensitized' from the constant irritation. That can become a serious issue, but it takes a pretty major amount for months to years to do it, and you'd know beyond a doubt if it was bothering you that much.

When friends/family/clients/you unwittingly spend time in your studio, do they/you get itchy? Do they/you tend to sneeze or cough? If so, you might want to re-wrap your panel.

But if you did a decent job putting them together, you probably have more a lot more to worry about from that big mac, beer belly, or lack of exercise.

Some people smoke and drink till they're 100. Others eat a peanut, swell up, and die. Who knows. But fiberglass is, imo, not going to kill any of us.

My first panels were 703 in poly batting in muslin. I am certain the batting kept all fibers in. My current ones are roxul in ready bags. I am less certain of those, and I think some invisible sized dust may be capable of going through when they are moved around. Either way, I've never noticed a problem with either at my place. But if anyone has any 'dangers of fiberglass' links or experiences to the contrary, I'd be interested.

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by Driller

This way I get to do a 3 1/2 day week and earn enough money to keep me in decent gear/food/girlfriend/insert as appropriate etc

Sounds like you have a pretty sweet lifestyle worked out there.

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

My first panels were 703 in poly batting in muslin. I am certain the batting kept all fibers in. My current ones are roxul in ready bags. I am less certain of those, and I think some invisible sized dust may be capable of going through when they are moved around. Either way, I've never noticed a problem with either at my place. But if anyone has any 'dangers of fiberglass' links or experiences to the contrary, I'd be interested.

Just thought of the perfect solution for my ready bags. I can't do a batting wrap cuz the panels won't fit...

edit: see Bass Traps: Healthy Alternatives to Fiberglass?

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

Well I did a bit of looking around, and here's the fundamental point about fiberglass that makes it 'safe' vs. something like asbestos:

Asbestos was lethal because it accumulated and stayed in your lungs permanently, scarring them and acting carcinogenic for life. However, your body is fully capable of breaking down any stray fiberglass (and presumably rockwool as well) you breathe. It simply dissolves.

It appears everyone has different tolerance for the fibers, and thus factories have 'recommended exposure limits' but so long as the exposure is within the capacity of your body to break it down (which appears quite high), it is safe.

The only studies that have shown serious risks like cancer have been in animals involving levels no living human could possibly encounter. There are anecdotal stories of people having severe 'allergy-type' reactions, but they generally seem to be rare massive disasters/accidents or where symptoms were ignored over time. In those cases, people's lungs/skin can become 'hypersensitized' from the constant irritation. That can become a serious issue, but it takes a pretty major amount for months to years to do it, and you'd know beyond a doubt if it was bothering you that much.

When friends/family/clients/you unwittingly spend time in your studio, do they/you get itchy? Do they/you tend to sneeze or cough? If so, you might want to re-wrap your panel.

But if you did a decent job putting them together, you probably have more a lot more to worry about from that big mac, beer belly, or lack of exercise.

Some people smoke and drink till they're 100. Others eat a peanut, swell up, and die. Who knows. But fiberglass is, imo, not going to kill any of us.

That is a fantastic post...thanks for taking the time to write it.

Frank

[Driller]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

However, your body is fully capable of breaking down any stray fiberglass (and presumably rockwool as well) you breathe. It simply dissolves.

I've just seen this AV. What on earth are you basing this information on? If you have something in your lungs which can "disolve" glass fibers, then the thin walls of your alveoli don't stand a chance.

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by Driller

I've just seen this AV. What on earth are you basing this information on? If you have something in your lungs which can "disolve" glass fibers, then the thin walls of your alveoli don't stand a chance.

1.4 HOW CAN SYNTHETIC VITREOUS FIBERS ENTER AND LEAVE MY BODY?
US GOV'T CDC PUBLIC HEALTH STATEMENT ON FIBERGLASS SAFETY
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp161-c1.pdf

If you breathe synthetic vitreous fibers, some will be deposited in the nasal and oral passages,
and on the surfaces that line your lungs. Most fibers deposited in the nasal and upper lung
airways are removed by being carried away in a layer of mucous to the throat, where they are
swallowed into the stomach. This usually takes place within a few hours. Fibers deposited in
the deepest parts of the lungs where gas exchange occurs are removed more slowly by special
cells called macrophages. Macrophages can engulf the fibers and move them to the mucous
layer and the larynx where they can be swallowed. Swallowed fibers and macrophages are
excreted in the feces within a few days.
Synthetic vitreous fibers deposited in the gas exchange area of the lungs also slowly dissolve in
lung fluid. Fibers that are partially dissolved in lung fluid are more easily broken into shorter
fibers. Shorter fibers are more easily engulfed by macrophages and removed from the lung than
long fibers. Synthetic vitreous fibers dissolve more readily in the lung than asbestos fibers.
Refractory ceramic fibers dissolve more slowly than most types of insulation (e.g., glass wools,
stone wools, and slag wools).
If you swallow synthetic vitreous fibers (by eating, drinking, or by swallowing fibers that have
moved from nasal or lung airways to your larynx), nearly all of the fibers pass through your
intestines within a few days and are excreted in the feces.
If you get synthetic vitreous fibers on your skin or in your eyes, very few of these fibers, if any,
pass through into your body.

[top]Researchers Studying Corrosion of E-Glass

Researchers Studying Corrosion of E-Glass

... One reason to look at corrosion of fiberglass is that health regulations require that glass fibers dissolve fairly quickly if inhaled into the lungs.


"Regulations require that fiber can only stay in the lung for a specific length of time before it dissolves," says Mellott. "If we have a better idea of how fiber breaks down, we can modify the glass compositions that make the fibers dissolve more quickly."

....

Safety of Fiber Glass Insulation

Does fiber glass cause cancer in people?

No. The International Agency for Cancer Research recently removed fiber glass from its list of possible carcinogens, based on its review of more than 15 years of research. Research conducted over the past 70 years shows that exposure levels are low, and that, even if inhaled into the lung, most fibers disappear quickly with no adverse health effects.

Is fiber glass like asbestos?

Fiber glass is fundamentally different from asbestos, both in its physical and chemical properties. Fiber glass is a man-made material. In contrast, asbestos is a naturally occurring, inorganic fiber. Our bodies can remove most types of fiber glass through a variety of mechanisms (it dissolves in the lungs, for example), while asbestos is more durable and stays in the body a lifetime. The American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH), representing over 1,600 academic and government officials engaged in occupational safety and health programs, estimates that MMVFs are hundreds of times less durable in the body than asbestos.

If fiber glass is safe, why are there health warnings on package labels?

Manufacturers have voluntarily provided warning labels on fiber glass products for years, even before they were required. Our industry strongly believes in full disclosure of all information related to our products and labels are one of the ways of providing information to workers and the public.
Labels are also required by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) as part of its Hazard Communications Standard. Fiber glass industry labels are in full compliance with these regulatory requirements. Many commonly used products including paint, cleaners, and artificial sweeteners also carry warning labels. The primary purpose of the labels is to offer appropriate health and safety warnings and to provide instructions on the safe use of the product.

Fiberglass in lungs?? Can it be removed?? - Yahoo! Answers

Most of the fiberglass that is taken into the body is flushed by water and mucous out of the nasal passages and throat and into the stomach, where they are passed through. Cells of the immune system, such as macrophages, can ingest small fiberglass particles. The macrophages then move to the mucous layer, and on to the stomach and beyond. Larger particles in the lungs often dissolve to smaller ones, and then are engulfed by the macrophages or removed by coughing.

Source(s):

Registered Respiratory Therapist
Registered Cardiopulmonary Technologist

.., and there's plenty that goes on from there. the us gov't pdf gives an exceptional overview and covers lots more. i attached it here as well.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp161-c1.pdf

the only evidence to the contrary seem to be rare isolated incidents described by 'unreputable' sites. i can find nothing remotely convincing or medically based to say the above consensus is in any way wrong.

but again, seriously, if anyone has some seemingly trustworthy links that say otherwise, let us all know.

after that, i am wondering if there is a difference in the safety/irritability of mineral wool vs. fiberglass, and i'll try to see what i can find about it. but both seem overwhelmingly safe unless you are facing constant high-level exposure for months or years on end, coughing up a lung every day from it, and do nothing to get away from it even then.

[Driller]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

.., and there's plenty that goes on from there. the us gov't pdf gives an exceptional overview.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp161-c1.pdf

the only evidence to the contrary seem to be rare isolated incidents described by 'unreputable' sites. i can find nothing remotely convincing or medically based to say the above consensus is in any way wrong.

but again, seriously, if anyone has some seemingly trustworthy links that say otherwise, let us all know.

after that, i am wondering if there is a difference in the safety/irritability of mineral wool vs. fiberglass, and i'll try to see what i can find about it.

I don't want to sound pompous and please don't take this the wro,g way but giving random links on the internet is not very scientific. Have you got any Medline/Pubmed links to studies?

And I really, really hope that when you write papers for your medical studies, you don't cite articles from "Yahoo Answers".

I'm going to have a look at this myself now. If indeed glass fiber does disolve in the lungs it sounds like interesting stuff.

Cheers
D

[audiovisceral]

Originally Posted by Driller

I don't want to sound pompous and please don't take this the wro,g way but giving random links on the internet is not very scientific. Have you got any Medline/Pubmed links to studies?

And I really, really hope that when you write papers for your medical studies, you don't cite articles from "Yahoo Answers".

I'm going to have a look at this myself now. If indeed glass fiber does disolve in the lungs it sounds like interesting stuff.

Cheers
D

That link is an official "Public Health Statement" from the US Government Center for Disease Control (CDC).

(?)

And as I said, all sources say the same thing. The other links/quotes were just from a quick google, but they all seem to agree.

If any medical studies found anything to the contrary, I expect it would be front page news. It's been thoroughly studied. There appears to be no controversy. Just misplaced stress and anxiety, left over from the horrible health disaster of asbestos.

[Driller]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

That link is an official "Public Health Statement" from the US Government Center for Disease Control (CDC).

(?)

And as I said, all sources say the same thing. The other links/quotes were just from a quick google, but they all seem to agree.

If any medical studies found anything to the contrary, I expect it would be front page news. It's been thoroughly studied. There appears to be no controversy. Just misplaced stress and anxiety, left over from the horrible health disaster of asbestos.

You knowI really didn't want that to sound condescending but it did anyway sorry. I'm still flabberghasted that glass can disolve in the lungs though. But what do you know, I found two studies talking about this on pubmed:

Items 1 - 2 of 2
One page.

1:
Related Articles, Links
Guldberg M, Jensen SL, Knudsen T, Steenberg T, Kamstrup O.

High-alumina low-silica HT stone wool fibers: a chemical compositional range with high biosolubility.
Regul Toxicol Pharmacol. 2002 Apr;35(2 Pt 1):217-26.
PMID: 12052006 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



2:
Related Articles, Links
Hesterberg TW, Hart GA, Miiller WC, Chase G, Rogers RA, Mangum JB, Everitt JI.

Use of short-term assays to evaluate the potential toxicity of two new biosoluble glasswool fibers.
Inhal Toxicol. 2002 Mar





I'm still doubtfull on the extent of clearance though, but hell any at all is amazing in my opinion. What an amazing thing the human body is!

[Weasel9992]

You know what? Admitting there's something you don't know is a super-classy thing to do, and it's rarely practiced on internet forums. You're an A+ guy in my book, Driller.

Big, big props to both of you guys for having a civil, informative disagreement on a controversial topic. I wish there was a lot more of this and a lot less posturing.

Frank

[eddierodriguez]

i could give you some german studies, but i´m not into medical-english.

small particles of fiberglass/mineralwool lock into your dermal-tissue/fabric in the lungs, throat, etc...

instead of removing this particles, the body overgrows some of this particles with dermal-tissue/fabric and you get little bulbs. these are causing cancer and other diseases.

damping can´t be done airtight. fabric isn´t airtight at all. the vapor barrier is some kind airtight, but still isn´t fully tight.

>quote: public health/science is now more careful than ever<

not in this case. it´s a comparable situation even though they´re not the same.

there are many studies that except any risks and there are also many studies that confirm risks.

we´ll see...

[Driller]

Originally Posted by Weasel9992

You know what? Admitting there's something you don't know is a super-classy thing to do, and it's rarely practiced on internet forums. You're an A+ guy in my book, Driller.

Big, big props to both of you guys for having a civil, informative disagreement on a controversial topic. I wish there was a lot more of this and a lot less posturing.

Frank

Well that's very civil of you to say so Sir There are already enough arrogant asses in the world .

[Ermz]

Well this thread has informed me that I likely won't die of lung cancer due to these nice black panels all around me. I'm a happy man. Thank you all

[AcousticsWizard]

can anybody please provide more conclusive evidence to this thread which started a couple years back. if all this is true about health risks, then i am 1) immediately finding another career, 2) filing at least 9 lawsuits, and 3) filing some more lawsuits on top of that. There are no warnings on the fibre products and no reference to immediately refer to some Material Safety Data sheet.

Luckily i have only been doing acoustics for about 6 months and not years before I found this information out.

Because although I work with a mask, and vaccum after working with the materials... it does not matter - because when taking off the mask to work on other things in the garage - the fibres would still be floating around. And this would especially be a problem in the winter when the garage must stay closed more.